Whore of Babylon

[Lisa4Catholics]

Maccabees:

Nothing except those who remain protestants at heart.

Maccabees, I have remained silent as long as I can Iam a convert and the converts I have met have struggled after their conversion with Mary.Why?Because the were wounded by false doctrine that is why! People who are up for Sianthood Like Cardinal John Henry Neuman(sp) was tormented with fears about the Church even after he Knew this was Jesus’ Church.These are wounds that are as real as a gunshot and a vulnerable area for the enemy aka the devil to fester and irritate.Please, use charity and some compassion,alot of these converts have family that tell them they are going to hell because they became Catholic,you need to calm their fears and help them understand instead of being sarcastic and accusing them of trying to be a Pope.God Bless

 

[MaggieOH]

Lisa4Catholics:

Maccabees, I have remained silent as long as I can Iam a convert and the converts I have met have struggled after their conversion with Mary.Why?Because the were wounded by false doctrine that is why! People who are up for Sianthood Like Cardinal John Henry Neuman(sp) was tormented with fears about the Church even after he Knew this was Jesus’ Church.These are wounds that are as real as a gunshot and a vulnerable area for the enemy aka the devil to fester and irritate.Please, use charity and some compassion,alot of these converts have family that tell them they are going to hell because they became Catholic,you need to calm their fears and help them understand instead of being sarcastic and accusing them of trying to be a Pope.God Bless

Lisa,

do I know you from somewhere? Like “Our God is an Awesome God”? Is this the same Lisa?

I agree with you Lisa. Every word you say is very true. We who are cradle Catholic need to show charity to those who have made the big jump and have swum the Tiber. That is why I said converts are like little children who still need to be nourished and fed.

Maggie

 

[porthos11]

MaggieOH:

Lisa,

do I know you from somewhere? Like “Our God is an Awesome God”? Is this the same Lisa?

I agree with you Lisa. Every word you say is very true. We who are cradle Catholic need to show charity to those who have made the big jump and have swum the Tiber. That is why I said converts are like little children who still need to be nourished and fed.

Maggie

Yea, but it’s also amazing that some of the most orthodox and zealous Catholics are converts.

 

[Maccabees]

Lisa4Catholics:

Maccabees, I have remained silent as long as I can Iam a convert and the converts I have met have struggled after their conversion with Mary.Why?Because the were wounded by false doctrine that is why! People who are up for Sianthood Like Cardinal John Henry Neuman(sp) was tormented with fears about the Church even after he Knew this was Jesus’ Church.These are wounds that are as real as a gunshot and a vulnerable area for the enemy aka the devil to fester and irritate.Please, use charity and some compassion,alot of these converts have family that tell them they are going to hell because they became Catholic,you need to calm their fears and help them understand instead of being sarcastic and accusing them of trying to be a Pope.God Bless

Look I have no problems with converts. I am one myself. But when I was going through issues I didn’t reject doctrine after I became catholic simply because my understanding of scripture did not indicate Mary was …
I came to catholics who knew more than me and I asked them tell me more. I didn’t fight with them and tell them that didn’t jive with my interpretation of scripture. Converts should come to the church as children and not teachers. I have no problem with young catholics asking to learn more I have a problem with young catholics telling me that a church teaching is wrong.

 

[MaggieOH]

porthos11:

Yea, but it’s also amazing that some of the most orthodox and zealous Catholics are converts.

Not all converts have the theological background of Scott Hahn or Newman, or many others who have been pastors and who have converted.

Look if you want to speak to this subject, start another thread and throw it open to the converts to see what they think.

As a cradle Catholic myself, and as one who has family who are Protestant, I believe that you must help those who have converted but do not have the same theological background as some of the more “famous” converts.

So please, if you cannot be nice stay out of the subject and stop passing judgement upon another person.

MaggieOH

 

[Benadam]

lefthand36:

Benadam,

This is absolutely beautiful. Your teaching skills are excellent. This helps so much. Sometimes I have to take the long way around before I truly understand. Your explanations are wonderful, and it really means a lot to me for someone to go out of their way with a peaceful mindset to help someone learn that is desperately seeking truth and knowledge. That is all I have ever asked for is a person with true compassion and understanding when trying to get answers. Compassion is one of the greatest virtues we could be guilty of having.

God Bless,

God bless,

lefthand36,
Thank you ! I’m so glad I was able to help. Anytime

 

[Maccabees]

MaggieOH:

Not all converts have the theological background of Scott Hahn or Newman, or many others who have been pastors and who have converted.

Look if you want to speak to this subject, start another thread and throw it open to the converts to see what they think.

As a cradle Catholic myself, and as one who has family who are Protestant, I believe that you must help those who have converted but do not have the same theological background as some of the more “famous” converts.

MaggieOH

Your obviously referring to Lefthand36 well I am glad you said it and not me.

 

[lefthand36]

Peace-bwu:

How Calvinist is the Lutheran church as a whole? Is Calvinist theology the norm of faith in the Lutheran church or something “played with” or considered?

Peace-bwu,

They do not consider themselves Calvinist, but I sometimes disagree. They believe that everyone has a chance at salvation, but not everyone will go to heaven. Which this is true, but they simply believe that believing does not involve human cooperation.

Now understand, I know that our faith is given by way of the Holy Spirit, but we must decide to believe or not, because I don’t believe the Lord forces himself on us.

But Lutherans believe that we in no way contribute to our belief. I told my former pastor if we don’t have to accept Christ and that The Holy Spirit does not call everyone, then how can we be accountable for not believing? He didn’t have an answer.

Hope this help.

Sincerely,

 

[lefthand36]

Maccabees:

Your obviously referring to Lefthand36 well I am glad you said it and not me.

Maccabees,

You can stop worrying about it now, because Benadam, Maggie, Church Militant and others have given me a deeper understanding of the term co-redeemer, and they did it with patience, love, and understanding, and not frustration. Therefore, I was able to grasp the understanding and realized that the term is not taking away the fact that Christ is our Savior. It also puts Mary in a most glorious role.

See, if you could be this patient and try to help converts grasp the teaching without being so angry and overbearing, you really could be a great asset to the Catholic faith. But when you have that kind of attitude, it makes people think twice about asking you for help again. It is like someone previously said before. That makes you feel like the student that got yelled at in the classroom. Gosh! I am sorry that I caused you such anxiety. Forgive me.

So, we can close this subject as we have gotten way off the subject.

God bless you, Maccabees

 

[Maccabees]

Yes I was frustrated and perhaps I took it out on you. Forgive me. :bowdown: And thanks for keeping an open mind on such an important subject. I just love our blessed mother so much I sometimes take a rejection of her as a personal insult. I am not a patient person others are better at that we are blessed with different gifts that is not mine.

All I ask is keep an open mind on any catholic teaching that on the surface you might disagree with.

 

[lefthand36]

Maccabees:

Yes I was frustrated and perhaps I took it out on you. Forgive me. :bowdown: And thanks for keeping an open mind on such an important subject. I just love our blessed mother so much I sometimes take a rejection of her as a personal insult. I am not a patient person others are better at that we are blessed with different gifts that is not mine.

All I ask is keep an open mind on any catholic teaching that on the surface you might disagree with.

Maccabees,

You are forgiven. I understand where you are coming from. I guess it is just like someone talking about one of our children. We would all be insulted. I am a very forgiving person, so don’t worry. No hard feelings.

Everyone please say a prayer for my mother-in-law that lives with us that is 79 years old. We came very close to losing her last night, and I am so tired from being up at the hospital. She is a heart patient with a defibrilator. Her heart medication levels were out of sight, her liver enzymes were really high, and her blood pressure dropped to 39 on the bottom, which is really bad. Her oxygen level was a panic value low. We are waiting to see if she has pneumonia because of her lung disease, or if the fluid they hear in her lungs is from congestive heart failure, which we hope it is only the pneumonia. The other means death in a short time. My husband is so worried and stressed that he can’t sleep.

Prayer can move mountains. Please ask for God’s will.

With love,

 

[MaggieOH]

lefthand36:

Maccabees,

You are forgiven. I understand where you are coming from. I guess it is just like someone talking about one of our children. We would all be insulted. I am a very forgiving person, so don’t worry. No hard feelings.

Everyone please say a prayer for my mother-in-law that lives with us that is 79 years old. We came very close to losing her last night, and I am so tired from being up at the hospital. She is a heart patient with a defibrilator. Her heart medication levels were out of sight, her liver enzymes were really high, and her blood pressure dropped to 39 on the bottom, which is really bad. Her oxygen level was a panic value low. We are waiting to see if she has pneumonia because of her lung disease, or if the fluid they hear in her lungs is from congestive heart failure, which we hope it is only the pneumonia. The other means death in a short time. My husband is so worried and stressed that he can’t sleep.

Prayer can move mountains. Please ask for God’s will.

With love,

Brenda,

prayers are with you at this time. Just let it be according to God’s Will. It is all you can ask.

Maggie

 

[mark_a]

Benadam:

. . . . Adam’s immortality is also at stake when he values his meaning as gift to eve over his meaning as son of God.

Care to expand on this a little more?

 

[Benadam]

mark a:

Care to expand on this a little more?

Originally Posted by Benadam
*. . . . Adam’s immortality is also at stake when he values his meaning as gift to eve over his meaning as son of God. *
In John Paul ii’s theology of the body he explains how Adam’s experience of solitude was an experience of himself as genderless in that the meaning of his gender had yet to be revealed. The state of Original Innocense has to be realized as one that recieving wasn’t a conscious interest in regards to personal relationships. The Pope’s theology call this type of sesponse to ‘other’ as disinterested gift. When Adam was given Woman, in her he found the meaning of his gender. In other words he discovered his masculinity in her femininity. His masculinity is meant for and his gift to her and in it she also finds the meaning of herself as Woman. This meaning of self was what I suggest was what was at stake in opposition to his primary meaning as son of God. I haven’t any thoughts as of yet in this theory of how things went whether he was conscious at that time of the fact that his immortality was at stake, but it is most probable that his bodies response to the conditions after making the decision made it known.

 

[worm]

The Catholic Encyclopedia states:

1. *“It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area
   of Vatican State proper is now confined.” *
   
   Catholic apologist Karl Keating also confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter 5:13.
   
   From: harpazo.net/Babylon.html please read it with possiblity it’s true.

 

[Genesis315]

worm:

The Catholic Encyclopedia states:

1. 
   ]“It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area *
   *of Vatican State proper is now confined.” *
   
   Catholic apologist Karl Keating also confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter 5:13.
   
   From: harpazo.net/Babylon.html please read it with possiblity it’s true.

1. 
   Pagan Rome was referred to as Babylon. Christian Rome is not Babylon, and the Catholic Church certainly is not. And I hope you are not implying the Church, the Bride of Christ, is a whore.

 

[Eric1975]

I’m am puzzled as to why you cannot draw a distinction between the ancient pre-Christian Imperial Rome that is referred to in code as ‘Babylon,’ so as not to inivite unfriendly inqueries by Roman centurions on active duty at that time of history, and the ‘Whore,’ which is a completely different word as well as matter. To explain it in very simple terms, the corrupted Herodian dynasty, which had degenrated (in a religious Jews’ perspective of the time) as well as the Sanhedrin, and the Scribes and Pharisees and quite possibly, members of the Levitical (Aaronic) priesthood were engaged in activities of worship that could be referred to as ‘the cult of emperor worship.’ And that, of course, was condemned everywhere by the early Christians. That is a major reason why they refused to use the coinage of ‘the beast,’ represented at the time of John’s Apocalypse as the Roman Emperor Nero. Now, I have had quite enough of evangelical and fundamentalist christians who do not even bother to read any objective history preach all kinds of vitriolic rhetoric towards the ancient Romans who are the ancestors of our contemporary Italians, and quite frankly I find it offensive to demean in any way anyone’s ancestors whether Jew or Gentile and regardless of these ancestors’ religious practices. The Whore of Babylon was unfaithful Israel (more specifically, those in leadership at that time) who was seen as being involved with worship that was alien and abominable to her people of the time when it came to offering incense as well as various kinds of religious devotion in the direction of the Roman emperor that was reigning as if he were divine. Japan also once had such a belief and I thank Our Lord that (hopefully) no one else leading in the world today demands worship as a god although some people seem able to have enough money to put their face on TIME magazine which is so sad.

 

[VociMike]

Maccabees:

Hey guys feel free to get out of the middle ages anytime.
500 years is a long time hold a grudge people.

That’s how I often feel. C’mon people, it’s not the 16th century any more! Problem is, the Catholic Church sits in silent judgement on Protestantism, and that drives lots of them crazy, so they have to keep tearing down the Church. John Henry Newman’s essay on anti-Catholicism in England is an interesting discussion of the problem: newmanreader.org/works/england/index.html

 

[Scalia]

The Harlot of Revelations is Jerusalem. Protestant presuppositions regarding Rome are not just biased speculation but is completely wrong. Very simply; the Old Testament gives us the answer. EVERYTIME the WHORE of BABYLON is mentioned in scripture it’s Jerusalem. The only exception is the ONE time scripture states the City of Tyre is the Whore.

Isaiah saw a vision for Jerusalem as follows, “Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom, give ear to the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrha.” Isaiah follows up by stating “How is the faithful city, that was full of judgment, become a harlot? justice dwelt in it, but now murderers” See Isaiah Chapter !, verses 10 & 21.

Jeremiah speaks of Jerusalem in the same manner: “Of old time thou hast broken my yoke, thou hast burst my bands, and thou saidst: I will not serve. For on every high hill, and under every green tree thou didst prostitute thyself” Chapter II, verse 20. He further admonishes Jerusalem by saying “How can I be merciful to thee? thy children have forsaken me, and swear by them that are not gods: I fed them to the full, and they committed adultery, and rioted in the harlot’s house” Cahpter V, verse 7.

Speaking to Jerusalem Ezechiel states “But trusting in thy beauty, thou playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and thou hast prostituted thyself to every passenger, to be his.” Chapter 16, verse 15. further, “That thou didst also build thee a common stew, and **madest thee a brothel **house in every street” Verse 24. and “Wherein shall I cleanse thy heart, saith Lord God: seeing thou dost all these the works of a shameless prostitute?” verse 30. Finally, in a most emphatic manner here, "Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord. " verse 35.

Therefore, there is no ambiguity concerning the city Revelation 11. The “Great” city has always = Jerusalem. Matthew in Chapter 23 corroborates this by saying:

"35 That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

36 Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.

37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldst not?