Who's first? God, Jesus or The Holy Spirit?

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2ndGen said:
Doesn’t God send Jesus and Jesus send The Holy Spirit?

Isn’t that an order of authority?

Has Jesus ever told God The Father what to do or sent Him out to do anything on His behalf?

Has The Holy Spirit ever sent out Jesus to do anything on His behalf?

Seems to me that the main One doing all the sending is God The Father.
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Yes, there is an order of generation, but not of worth or authority.
 
If Jesus was created than what was the point of his death? Jesus WAS God in Human flesh.

Not sure where this thread is going either. I may have misunderstood.

However I know many lately that though they believe Jesus was sent by God they do not believe he was God. The thought to question the Divinity of Christ has never even crossed my mind.

I can see Muslims and Jews believing this way but not Christians. It fits more in with people who hold to dual covenant theology. That way they can agree with Muslims and Jews.

I do not see how a person can even be a Christian and not believe in the Co-equality of the Trinity, that Jesus is God.

Not pointing out 2ndGen though, like I said, I may have misunderstood.

There does seem to be a lot of discussion here lately on this topic among my friends.
 
2ndGen said:
Wait, does The Creed teach us that it was The Father who created Jesus since Jesus is invisible to us now but was visible once and since it states that The Father created all?
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No. God the Son was not created, he was begotten. Huge difference. Also, the creed does not say that the Son “was” begotten of the Father - it says the Son “is” eternally begotten of the Father. Again, huge difference. It means that this begetting is eternally on-going.

Most people misconstrue the creed to mean that the Father begot the Son and the so the Son will now exist forever. But “eternal” does not mean “forever”; it means “exists without regard to time, neither past nor future but completely and always now”. Since God created time, we cannot talk of God in terms of time.

Remember that it is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons - the Trinity. God does not exist in any other way, and He has always existed as the Trinity. The names “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” are not their names or titles; these titles were revealed to us for our benefit because those titles most closely approximate the roles that each of them fill - the ways that we can best understand their relationship to us and to one another. When we are admitted to the beatific vision, I believe that we will fully understand the dynamics of the three persons of the Trinity, and I believe we will be surprised at how primitive our understanding of them really is.

The eternal principle of the gospel, if you boil it down to its basics, is this: perfect obedience to perfect love is perfect joy. The Father is perfect love, the Son is perfect obedience, and the Holy Spirit is perfect Joy. These are one principle and one God. The Father’s Love begets the Son’s Obedience, and from this perfect Obedience to Love proceeds perfect Joy.

I love to meditate on the Trinity. Try it.

God love you,
Paul
 
Jesus pre-existed before He was begotten. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. They can’t have one exist before the other.
 
Let me go back to the original question: Who’s first? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

That’s not really a good way to phrase it. The term “God” applies to three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So if you ask who is first (referring to persons), there are two correct answers.
  1. No one is first in the order of creation, since all three Persons are uncreated, co-equal and eternal.
  2. The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son (or Word) as a function of his self-knowing, and the Father & Son generate the Holy Spirit as a function of their mutual love. Since none of the generation takes any time, no person precedes the other temporally. All are eternal. There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.
Finally, the Second Person—the Word—is uncreated. But He took on a human nature–body & soul–which was created at a point in time. The Person who is Jesus, however, is eternal and uncreated.
 
Dauphin said:
Yikes!! Jesus isn’t created!! The thought that the Creed tells us that Jesus is created is beyond outrageous. Are you being serious?
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created, generated, begotten, pick your term.

All mean the same, that Jesus comes “from” God.
 
2ndGen said:
It calls Jesus God “from” God, Light “of” Light, begotten “of” The Father, by Whom all things were made?
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No, it says “through whom all things were made”. The “whom” here is the Son.

All things were made by the Father through the Son (see John 1). Therefore, Jesus is not a creature, since everything that was created was created through Jesus.

God love you,
Paul
 
Auriel said:
If Jesus was created than what was the point of his death? Jesus WAS God in Human flesh.

Not sure where this thread is going either. I may have misunderstood.

However I know many lately that though they believe Jesus was sent by God they do not believe he was God. The thought to question the Divinity of Christ has never even crossed my mind.

I can see Muslims and Jews believing this way but not Christians. It fits more in with people who hold to dual covenant theology. That way they can agree with Muslims and Jews.

I do not see how a person can even be a Christian and not believe in the Co-equality of the Trinity, that Jesus is God.

Not pointing out 2ndGen though, like I said, I may have misunderstood.

There does seem to be a lot of discussion here lately on this topic among my friends.
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For a Christian to “not” believe that Jesus is God is an automatic disqualifier for his being a Christian.
 
2ndGen said:
Who titles God The Father?

Us?

Or God Himself?
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Jesus himself introduced us to the Trinity and the titles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament, although there are many Trinitarian passages in the OT as well.

2ndGen, with all due respect, you need to read the bible. It will clear up all these difficulties rather quickly and easily. Start with the New Testament (especially the gospels), then go back and read the Old Testament.

God bless you,
Paul
 
JimG said:
Let me go back to the original question: Who’s first? God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

That’s not really a good way to phrase it. The term “God” applies to three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So if you ask who is first (referring to persons), there are two correct answers.
  1. No one is first in the order of creation, since all three Persons are uncreated, co-equal and eternal.
  2. The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son (or Word) as a function of his self-knowing, and the Father & Son generate the Holy Spirit as a function of their mutual love. Since none of the generation takes any time, no person precedes the other temporally. All are eternal. There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.
Finally, the Second Person—the Word—is uncreated. But He took on a human nature–body & soul–which was created at a point in time. The Person who is Jesus, however, is eternal and uncreated.
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Option 1 is Catholic teaching with the addtion that all 3 persons have the same nature.

Neither person of the Trinity was created. All 3 have always existed since they are outside of time.

“The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son”
contradicts
“There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.”
 
PaulDupre said:
No, it says “through whom all things were made”. The “whom” here is the Son.

All things were made by the Father through the Son (see John 1). Therefore, Jesus is not a creature, since everything that was created was created through Jesus.

God love you,
Paul
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But it doesn’t specifiy as to if those things were invisible or visible as when it refers only to the 1st Person in The Trinity so it is referring to all visible things.

Only The Father is mentioned in creating invisible and visible things where Jesus is mentioned in visible things only.

Are you saying that it doesn’t say God from God, Light of Light?

Why the separation in describing the visible and invisible when mentioning God and only the visible when mentioning Jesus (no separation)?

Wait…let’s first start on the same page and agree that we are both using the same Creed to reference to since you stated that it didn’t say God from God, Light of Light…

*We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. *

Again, allow me to define “begotten”:

be·get
  1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
  2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
—Related forms
be·get·ter, noun

—Synonyms 1. spawn, sire, breed, father.
2. occasion, engender, effect, generate.
 
thedavidwilson said:
Option 1 is Catholic teaching with the addtion that all 3 persons have the same nature.

Neither person of the Trinity was created. All 3 have always existed since they are outside of time.

“The Father is first in the order of generation, since the Father generates the Son”
contradicts
“There is no instant at which all three persons did not exist.”
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I don’t think we disagree here. You indicated that option 1 is correct, but that option 2 contradicts the Persons being co-eternal.

Philosophically, that is not the case. The Father, knowing himself, generates the Son. That does not take any time. God exists in eternity, not time. The Father, from all eternity, knows himself, and knowing himself, generates the Son. The same consideration applies to the generation of the Spirit.

So while this generation may sound like a temporal process to our human minds, it is not. It is eternal. (And the term ‘generates’ is used, not ‘creates,’ as neither Father, Son or the Holy Spirit are created beings.)
 
2ndGen said:
PaulDupre;3219914:
Continual re-generation?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it does say “begotten” past tense, no?

Eternally begotten in that it happened before time was created by God, no?
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No, “begotten” is not past tense, it is perfect tense. It means “Jesus is (not was) eternally begotten of the Father”. It means that the begetting of the Son is complete but happens continually, as the procession of the Holy Spirit happens continually. There is no before or after with God. God has always existed as a family of three persons. He does not exist in any other way. It is His nature.

God bless you,
Paul
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PaulDupre said:
Jesus himself introduced us to the Trinity and the titles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament, although there are many Trinitarian passages in the OT as well.

2ndGen, with all due respect, you need to read the bible. It will clear up all these difficulties rather quickly and easily. Start with the New Testament (especially the gospels), then go back and read the Old Testament.

God bless you,
Paul
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With all due respect, the forums are for us to inform each other and to ask for specific help.

To just send me off the The Bible isn’t the way Philip taught the Ethiopian Eunich.

It’s ok, I’ll just wait until The Holy Spirit fills someone and inspires them (the way it did to Philip) to help teach me instead of just telling me to find it out for myself.

👍
 
PaulDupre said:
2ndGen;3219972:
No, “begotten” is not past tense, it is perfect tense. It means "Jesus is
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(not was) eternally begotten of the Father". It means that the begetting of the Son is complete but happens continually, as the procession of the Holy Spirit happens continually. There is no before or after with God. God has always existed as a family of three persons. He does not exist in any other way. It is His nature.

God bless you,
Paul

Well that’s a first for me.

“perfect tense”

Never heard that before.

So we can throw away what is commonly known to mean “beget” today.

You say that God as alwasy existed as 3…and you are right…“after” time was created.

But what about before time?

Again, and this is a question that isn’t being answered here.

Why is God referred to as the One who brought forth Jesus?

To “father” is to bring forth someone and Jesus calls Him Father and calls Himself the result of fatherhood which is “Son”.
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Sorry to see you turning hostile on me. That wasn’t my intent. By the way, when Philip encountered the Ethiopian eunuch on the road, the Ethiopian was reading the scriptures. That was the common basis that Philip used to teach him, and that’s why the eunuch was teachable.

I see that I have offended you. I apologize. I never meant to.

Paul
 
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