Who's first? God, Jesus or The Holy Spirit?

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holdencaulfield said:
Yes, the Father did beget the Son however since The Holy Trinity always had to be present, although the Father created the Son it doesn’t mean that the Son didn’t always exist. We can think of the Son as always having been created. You have to remember that God is beyond time and space.
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How is it known that The Trinity always “had to be” present?

It’s only clear that it was present since the beginning of time, but what evidence or belief is there that before time was created that The Trinity was “not” Tri, but Un? God is/was always one. That’s a given.

But when did He beget Jesus Christ?

Of course, in reality, no human being will ever be able to answer this question, but it tickles me to see people (not you!) try to explain and answer every single question I pose when The Church itself states that it can never be known!

😃

Why did He beget Jesus Christ?
 
2ndGen said:
Everybody says that because it’s what they read, but the Catechism states that God generated Jesus Christ.

What does that mean if it doesn’t mean that God begot Jesus (sired Him)?
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God can still have created Christ, yet Christ can still have existed since the beginning of time. When you think a thought you created the thought yet it exists the second you think it. There is no in between time.

“The title Son of God signifies the unique and eternal relationship of Jesus Christ to God his Father.” (CCC 454)

“eternally begotten of the Father” (The Nicene Creed)

Obviously Catholics believe that the Son always existed.
 
2ndGen said:
How is it known that The Trinity always “had to be” present?

It’s only clear that it was present since the beginning of time, but what evidence or belief is there that before time was created that The Trinity was “not” Tri, but Un? God is/was always one. That’s a given.

But when did He beget Jesus Christ?

Of course, in reality, no human being will ever be able to answer this question, but it tickles me to see people (not you!) try to explain and answer every single question I pose when The Church itself states that it can never be known!

😃

Why did He beget Jesus Christ?
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The Holy Trinity had to always be present because God has always been present.

Lets look at this:

“God is love” (1 John 4:16)

Since God is unchanging who would he have loved in the very beginning if the Son didn’t exist.
 
abucs said:
I think i usually have an in built bias in praying to a creator which i think of as the Father but in essence for our faith it is the whole trinity.

I think the trinities nature is difficult at the best of times but when i pray i am aware of God’s differents components which provides a richly diverse relationship. As such i don’t think of one component being more important than the other because they are all connected as one being to my mind.

As no-one is like God we can’t really have an idea of his nature apart from revelation.

Perhaps we should ask the blessed Mother Mary during her next apparition. 🙂
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🙂

The Church has already addressed that in stating in The Catechism that no one will ever be able to comprehend The Trinity.

So when I see some offer up explanations that are not in The Catechism or in The Holy Bible, I kep the current running to see exactly how far they can explain it.

Of course, those who I’m speaking of will get mad at that statement, but this will only show that what I’m saying is true. “If” their explanations are “not” in The Catechism of The Catholic Church and are “not” in The Holy Bible, then they will automatically respond to my statement. All others whose explainations “are” in The CCC or The Bible can’t disagree with what I just said.

🙂
 
holdencaulfield said:
The Holy Trinity had to always be present because God has always been present.

Lets look at this:

“God is love” (1 John 4:16)

Since God is unchanging who would he have loved in the very beginning if the Son didn’t exist.
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A woman is inseminated. The cell splits into two, then into four, then into 8. Of course, the cell that has split has always existed, but has it existed as the 2 always? The 4? The 8? Or as the cell?
 
2ndGen said:
A woman is inseminated. The cell splits into two, then into four, then into 8. Of course, the cell that has split has always existed, but has it existed as the 2 always? The 4? The 8? Or as the cell?
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However the Bible and the Catechism have said that the Son has always existed. However I do agree, man can never understand the Holy Trinity perfectly.
 
holdencaulfield said:
God can still have created Christ, yet Christ can still have existed since the beginning of time. When you think a thought you created the thought yet it exists the second you think it. There is no in between time.

“The title Son of God signifies the unique and eternal relationship of Jesus Christ to God his Father.” (CCC 454)

“eternally begotten of the Father” (The Nicene Creed)

Obviously Catholics believe that the Son always existed.
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Well, some believe that to state that God created Jesus is heretical. I’ve been literally hurled vulgar words by a supposed Catholic here for even asking that. 🤷

I’m with you on the limit of time thing.

Some people see my questions and automatically attach a belief to the source of the question and instead of just attempting to answer the question, they attack the forwarder of the question.

“eternally begotten” is a contradiction in terms.

Which word is the operative word there?

Eternally or begotten?

It literallys says “continually being generated” as eternally means having always existed whereas begotten means generated “from”.

So then is Jesus an outward extenstion of God as a Person of The Trinity being God as well?

Regardless of “how” any of us see it, we are told and it is the doctrine of The Catholic Church that Jesus The Son comes “from” God The Father.

Now, here this out:

Is there any reference that states that:

God The Father ever did God The Son’s will?

That The Father was ever under the authority of The Son?

Those questions seem to go unanswered here, but people are ready to repeat written facts, yet won’t go near those two questions.
 
holdencaulfield said:
However the Bible and the Catechism have said that the Son has always existed. However I do agree, man can never understand the Holy Trinity perfectly.
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LOL!

Here’s the question brother HoldenC…it states that Jesus always existed, but the word “exist” is a measure of time!

LOL!

See how it begins to twist your brain when we try to figure out God?

:doh2:
 
The Son’s will is the Father’s will there is no difference.

“For as the Trinity has only one and the same nature, so too does it have only one and the same operation.” (CCC 258)

“O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!” (CCC 257)

“eternally begotten” seemingly is a contradiction, however it really is not. The Father created the Son. The Son has always existed. The Son has always been created. Again in terms of human space and time this is hard to imagine, but God is beyond space and time.
 
2ndGen said:
LOL!

Here’s the question brother HoldenC…it states that Jesus always existed, but the word “exist” is a measure of time!

LOL!

See how it begins to twist your brain when we try to figure out God?

:doh2:
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We can’t understand God. But it is no contradiction of our faith to say that the Son was created, yet he has always existed.
 
The way I’ve imagined it is this: (I also think it’s quite similar to an analogy by C.S. Lewis, but I couldn’t tell you for sure)

There is a table, and on this table are two books, one stacked upon the other. The table and the books were always there, but the books are still dependent on the table to hold them.
 
holdencaulfield said:
The Son’s will is the Father’s will there is no difference.

“For as the Trinity has only one and the same nature, so too does it have only one and the same operation.” (CCC 258)

“O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!” (CCC 257)

“eternally begotten” seemingly is a contradiction, however it really is not. The Father created the Son. The Son has always existed. The Son has always been created. Again in terms of human space and time this is hard to imagine, but God is beyond space and time.
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Ahh, but the why is the Son’s will The Father’s will?

Because The Son perfectly submits His will to The Father’s!

Which sprouts forth another question, does the Person of Christ and The Holy Spirit have independent will?

Hmmm…:hmmm:
 
2ndGen said:
Its not so much an offense as it is your assumption that I didn’t read The Bible.

The Ethiopian’s response to Philip’s question (do you understand what you’re reading) was how can I know what I’m reading unless someone explains it to me.

That’s what I’m doing here. Asking someone to explain it to me (of course, that I consider more knowledgable than I. If Philip had told him to keep reading, The Ethiopian wouldn’t have learned anything. I came here to rely on those smarter than myself.

So when you told me “you need to read the Bible”, I felt chastized for asking a question .

Can you see it from my point of view?

🙂
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Yes, I do see, and I am sorry. Keep questioning - this thread turned out to be quite beautiful. Thank you for starting it!

Your brother,
Paul
 
The easiest (and most intelligent) way for me to understand the Trinity when I come to a stumbling block is to just remember that NOTHING is impossible for God.

That’s precisely why I don’t have to question everything that I cannot explain.

It would be worse for me to attempt to explain something that I cannot than for me to just “not” have an explaination.

🤓
 
brycelaliberte said:
The way I’ve imagined it is this: (I also think it’s quite similar to an analogy by C.S. Lewis, but I couldn’t tell you for sure)

There is a table, and on this table are two books, one stacked upon the other. The table and the books were always there, but the books are still dependent on the table to hold them.
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Yes that is the analogy that C.S.Lewis uses, but I’m glad you brought it up because it works so well in describing this.
 
PaulDupre said:
Yes, I do see, and I am sorry. Keep questioning - this thread turned out to be quite beautiful. Thank you for starting it!

Your brother,
Paul
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Paul, you know what’s funny about this all?

I ask questions that I know the answers to to see what other’s have to say. And based on the questions, they deemed heretical, yet, I’ve haven’t really espoused my beliefs

😃

And thank you…this has turned out to be a surprisingly informative thread. I can’t take any credit for something so productive. God must have used me as a writing instrument because I don’t think I’m capable of such good suggestion.

Pax
 
2ndGen said:
Paul, you know what’s funny about this all?

I ask questions that I know the answers to to see what other’s have to say. And based on the questions, they deemed heretical, yet, I’ve haven’t really espoused my beliefs

😃

And thank you…this has turned out to be a surprisingly informative thread. I can’t take any credit for something so productive. God must have used me as a writing instrument because I don’t think I’m capable of such good suggestion.

Pax
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Wait are you saying that you asked that question just to see what people said. Because we seem to be at an agreement, however we weren’t at the start?
 
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