Who's first? God, Jesus or The Holy Spirit?

[PaulDupre]

But when did He beget Jesus Christ?

Of course, in reality, no human being will ever be able to answer this question, but it tickles me to see people (not you!) try to explain and answer every single question I pose when The Church itself states that it can never be known!

Can you give us a reference for the teaching that it can never be known? Then we could discuss it. I have been taught that the Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot be known. A mystery is something that is unknowable, in part or at all, through the action of our reason and intellect alone. Knowledge of a mystery must be a gift from the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[holdencaulfield]

Can you give us a reference for the teaching that it can never be known? Then we could discuss it. I have been taught that the Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot be known. A mystery is something that is unknowable, in part or at all, through the action of our reason and intellect alone. Knowledge of a mystery must be a gift from the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,
Paul

We can know some of the mystery, but not all. That’s why it is a mystery.

“one of the mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God” (CCC 237)

 

[abucs]

This time question came up on another thread.

I thought that if we define time an an attribute of God that naturally proceeds from him, it might solve some problems on how he can act. In essence God can create and act in different times (ours for example). Maybe if the Son is then begotten of the same nature, because that nature contains the attribute of time, then the begotten (somehow) can be properly defined as existing throughout all time. )

OR …

… perhaps the Son / Logos is begotten with time by the Father outside of time, and therefore He can act as God in time, whereas the Father is the same being outside of time.

In the beginning there was time, and he was with God and he was God. Through him all things were made …

There you go. You forced me to try and define the trinity and make a complete *** out of myself.

Catch you next time.

 

[fbl9]

i haven’t seen this yet so i’ll put it up…God knowing Himself is God the Father;God as known to Himself is God the Son.God the Father and God the Son loved one anohter from all eternity,for in each beheld in the other the Supreme Goodness of the Divinity. Thier mutual love is their own very substance,a living person,the Holy Spirit.So the Divine Trinity is God knowing himself. Hey…this sounds like a mystery to me. Our tiny minds can not fully understand how.But if we are pure spirits then we can know. only a spirit can only know a spirit as a spirit.

 

[2ndGen]

Wait are you saying that you asked that question just to see what people said. Because we seem to be at an agreement, however we weren’t at the start?

No, not every question.

Which question are you referring to specifically?

 

[holdencaulfield]

your first post.

 

[Linda_Marie]

I think the problem lies in the paucity of the English language, and indeed of all earthly languages to accurately describe God. We exist in time. For us, all things have a beginning and an end so it is extremely difficult for us to comprehend something outside of time that has no beginning and no end. Unfortunately, all of our verbs have an implication of time. To say begotten implies that there was a before and an after. To say proceeds also implies the time element. That is why the ECF qualified begotten with ‘eternally’ to remove the time element. The problem is with language being inadequate.

None of the Persons of the Trinity existed before each other. They eternally co-exist. The Father is not older than the Son (ie: came first) or the Holy Spirit, The Son is not younger (ie: came second) than the Father, neither is the Spirit. There was never a point at which the Father existed alone. The Father never existed without the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To say that the Father came first would divide the substance of God, yet Father, Son and Holy Spirit are consubstantial.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

I think you might find it fruitful to spend some time in prayer and meditation on the Mystery of the Trinity before the Blessed Sacrament and ask the Holy Spirit for Understanding.

 

[2ndGen]

Can you give us a reference for the teaching that it can never be known? Then we could discuss it. I have been taught that the Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot be known. A mystery is something that is unknowable, in part or at all, through the action of our reason and intellect alone. Knowledge of a mystery must be a gift from the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,
Paul

Have you been taught that The Trinity “can” be known by man?

Catechism:
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

 

[holdencaulfield]

I think the problem lies in the paucity of the English language, and indeed of all earthly languages to accurately describe God. We exist in time. For us, all things have a beginning and an end so it is extremely difficult for us to comprehend something outside of time that has no beginning and no end. Unfortunately, all of our verbs have an implication of time. To say begotten implies that there was a before and an after. To say proceeds also implies the time element. That is why the ECF qualified begotten with ‘eternally’ to remove the time element. The problem is with language being inadequate.

None of the Persons of the Trinity existed before each other. They eternally co-exist. The Father is not older than the Son (ie: came first) or the Holy Spirit, The Son is not younger (ie: came second) than the Father, neither is the Spirit. There was never a point at which the Father existed alone. The Father never existed without the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To say that the Father came first would divide the substance of God, yet Father, Son and Holy Spirit are consubstantial.

I think you might find it fruitful to spend some time in prayer and meditation on the Mystery of the Trinity before the Blessed Sacrament and ask the Holy Spirit for Understanding.

 

[PaulDupre]

Have you been taught that The Trinity “can” be known by man?

Catechism:
251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

Isn’t that exactly what I said? The key phrase here is “all that we can humanly understand”. Go back and read my post carefully and you will see that I said:

PaulDupre:

A mystery is something that is unknowable, in part or at all, through the action of our reason and intellect alone (ie: humanly understand). Knowledge of a mystery must be a gift from the Holy Spirit.

Knowledge that comes as a gift from the Holy Spirit is not “humanly” understood.

And yes, the mystery of the Trinity (as any mystery) can be at least partially understood by man, but only as the Holy Spirit bestows.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[2ndGen]

Sorry guys,

I’m knockin’ off.

I’m not ignoring you.

Will be back tomorrow.

Good night from New York.

 

[abucs]

Are there any revelations to the saints on ways of thinking about the Holy Trinity ?

Yes i agree that because our minds are shaped by this universe, it is inadequate for understanding things beyond it.

Thanks for the advice Linda Marie on prayer.

Respect.

 

[truthsilence]

i haven’t seen this yet so i’ll put it up…God knowing Himself is God the Father;God as known to Himself is God the Son.God the Father and God the Son loved one anohter from all eternity,for in each beheld in the other the Supreme Goodness of the Divinity. Thier mutual love is their own very substance,a living person,the Holy Spirit.So the Divine Trinity is God knowing himself. Hey…this sounds like a mystery to me. Our tiny minds can not fully understand how.But if we are pure spirits then we can know. only a spirit can only know a spirit as a spirit.

fb, I’ve seen or heard that before, but I don’t recall where. Since you said you hadn’t seen it put up here yet, I assume you found this quote somewhere else? Can you give me a reference for it?

This is an idea similar to what I was trying to ask about in RCIA, when I totally butchered the question, and made the mistake about Jesus proceeding from the Father.

Peace to you.
Tami

 

[MH84]

OP, the name of your post doesnt make sense to me. Many Christians, like you, refer to the Divine Persons as, “God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit”. They get these terms from the bible. The Catholic Church now calls these Persons, “Father , Son and Holy Spirit”. The bible’s concept of the Persons seem different to the Church’s view of Them. “God” in the bible is interchangeable with the Father, but not the Holy Spirit or the Son. This indicates that the earliest Christians like the Apostles didnt know that there was a Trinity, or they didnt understand the concept. Since only the Father is called God interchangeably in the bible, that means they didnt think the Jesus or the Holy Spirit were equal to God. Often “God” is used to distinguish the Father of Jesus from Jesus Himself, like in John 17:3.

3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

How come St John records Jesus calling the Father the only true God, but makes no mention of Jesus being God there as well. Note also, that Jesus calls His Father the only true God, He doesnt say the He is the only “Divine Father”.

I don’t think the term “God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit” makes sense in accordance with Catholic doctrine. How can “Father” be interchangeable with “God” in the Bible? What about the Son and the Holy Spirit? This phrase seems to indicate that the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate from God. Do you see where Im coming from?

In the Bible, the Father of Jesus is called “God”, not “God the Father”. See John 17:3, Acts 2:36 and Acts 10:38 for instance. Jesus calls His Father, “God”, not “God the Father”. When Jesus calls God His Father, this doesnt mean that the apostles thought that Jesus was God the Son. Why do the NT writers have Jesus call His Father “God”, but they never have Jesus or the Holy Spirit being referred to as God?

The term, “Son of God” doesnt mean the apostles thought Jesus was God the Son. If they did, how come they didnt call Jesus, the “Son of God the Father”, or “Eternal Son of the Father”. Because according to Catholic doctrine, God is the nature of the Father, not who He is. But we Christians call Jesus, Son of God, not Son of the Father. Doesnt this mean that the nature of Jesus is separate to God? Are we saying that Jesus is the Son of God’s nature?! How come we never say, that the Father is “Father of God”, or that the Holy Spirit is the “Holy Spirit of God”. It doest sound right does it? But we seem to say that “Son of God” is equal to God the Son.

If the term “God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit” is acceptable with Catholics, doesnt that mean we have a couple of problems:

1. That “God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit” means we are calling Father by His nature, but the Son and the Holy Spirit by their Personhoods. It doesn’t make sense.

or

1. We are double counting the Son and the Holy Spirit in the equation because they are also God. In other words we are saying, “God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus and the Holy Spirit”).

or

1. We are saying that only God the Father is God, because He has the title without the condition that He is God the Father. Because as Catholics we cannot distinhuish the Persons unless we mention their separate Personhoods. What I mean is if I was to ask a Catholic about God, they would first have to tell me which Person of the Trinity I wanted to know about, or talk about all three of them at once. Because according to Catholics God means Trinity, not God equals Father.

Anyway, I have been trying to get answers to what the early Christians thought about Jesus, and what the meanings of certain terms used in the bible are. Here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213018

If you can help me please don’t hesitate. But please just don’t start throwing out bible verses like John 1:1 and John 10:30, because I know them. Try to answer my point directly if you are able to. Otherwise you end up answering everything but my questions .

 

[PaulDupre]

Very good point, MH. You emphasize the importance of using the correct terms when discussing religion (or anything else for that matter). The bible was written mainly by Jews who had not yet developed a trinitarian vocabulary. Much of the brilliant work of the ECFs involved crafting the terminology we use to discuss God. The words we use reflect what we believe, so we must not conflate or confuse them.

Good post!

Paul

 

[Dauphin]

254
The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary.

“Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another:

"He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin:

"It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."The divine Unity is Triune.

A perfect complement to my post. Now do you have a refutation, or do you agree with Christian orthodoxy?

 

[Dauphin]

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Christ was referring to his human will.

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

A perfect exposition of the relationship between the Father and the Son, who are of one substance.

John 5:30
I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Christ is referring to his human will.

Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

This is a prayer to the Father. Would you have it request that his will should not be done?

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Christ is referring to His human will. He had to fight against the human temptation to flee.

None of the quotes you’ve provided endorse the Arian position.

 

[Dauphin]

But when did He beget Jesus Christ?

In eternity. Not within the time that He created. It’s very simple, really. I still think you should get to confession. You seem to have fallen for a heresy.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Christ was referring to his human will.

Even if Jesus was once God’s eternal Word exactly the same as God, now Jesus is eternally bound to his human spirit which is undeniably subordinate to God. This will make for Arianism, if you insist Jesus is a deity.

Unless you are saying that God’s Word just threw away the human spirit of Jesus like old rags once he was done with it and now back to his old self being equal to the Father.

 

[2ndGen]

A perfect complement to my post. Now do you have a refutation, or do you agree with Christian orthodoxy?

McFly…that’s “my” post there.