LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
They are not arbitrary. Maybe if you had to make policy for a state you might see that it is not as easy as you might imagine.
That is not sufficient reason to discount their sincerity.
Who's Going to Pay the Bills?: Purpose-Driven Coronavirus Business Shutdowns Cause Economic Catastrophe
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AlNg
Guest
It was 61000 deaths for the influenza epidemic in 2017 and the country was not 80% shut down.
Further there are measures that can be taken which are not so extreme and would prevent many deaths.
Here’s a question for you: Is 80 million jobs lost high enough for you? How many of the 80 million people losing their jobs will die? do you care about them?
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AlNg
Guest
Fake news.
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AlNg
Guest
Why do they demand that everyone else wear a mask and they won’t let you in the store without a mask? But I see Dr. Fauci close to others without wearing any mask?
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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The 61,000 deaths were for the whole year. The Covid-19 death toll is really from just about 4 weeks. If covid-19 were allowed to spread to the same extent we allow the flu to spread for an entire year, it would dwarf that 61,000 figure.
I keep hearing this - along with no details on what those measures might be. One wonders if those who make that claim actually have some measures in mind.
So far they have been out of work for about 3 weeks. Even if it lasts another month, that is less than two months. It is not the same as permanently losing all those jobs.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Because he does not want to embarrass the president, whose has refused to wear a mask?LeafByNiggle:
Why do they demand that everyone else wear a mask and they won’t let you in the store without a mask? But I see Dr. Fauci close to others without wearing any mask?
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whatistrue
Guest
Large parts of the country were shut down then. Perhaps if more had been the death toll would have been much lower. We will never know for sure, but I think it likely. Of course I care about people losing their jobs, even if it is only for a while. I personally have been in the situation where a week without a paycheck meant going hungry for several days, and two weeks without could mean being homeless. I thank God that I am not in that situation at the moment, but I know for a fact that I could be again. But I am reminded of a quote I read a few days ago. Unfortunately I don’t remember the name of the person who said it. “We know how to bring the economy back to life; we don’t know how to bring people back to life”. That to me is the bottom line. We cannot prevent all deaths everywhere, but we can minimize the deaths as best we can, and isn’t that the real “bottom line”?
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Maximus1
Guest
You are describing a dillemma with no good answer.
You point out suicide, depression, and a list of horrible. On the other hand, we are not talking about saving lives in the abstract. These are " our" close family and friends. What happens when your decision to venture out kills your most cherished is the most paralysis inducing idea we ever faced. I know that is an overwhelming thought for most. Leaving them behind in economic conditions that are deteriorating is another. It isn’t going off to a foreign war. It’s inviting the warzone wherever you live. TO THE EXTENT you imagine sending OTHERS out as happens with the draft, there are enough celebrities and rich peoples names being mentioned as sick to know there is no shelter. I mention this because it’s a given that the poor are always at high risk.
We have to remember that money can be made, lost, and made again. We are resilient if healthy. Trump’s life is an oscillating marathon of bankruptsy, to rich, and he finds himself president in his 70s.
WE AREN’T MONKEYS! WE CAN CHOOSE TO LET GO OF THE BANANA.
I cannot get the Mayor of AMITY out of my mind from the movie Jaws. His exertion of single minded pressure to ," open the beaches." I watched the 17 second you tube video of him yesterday just to refresh my memory.
" This is the best summer we are ever going to have."
Or his news conference:
" A large predator has been caught."
He was told it wasn’t the shark, but he sold swimming because economic necessity made him deaf.
How similar to this crisis now.
And they made the wrong choice. The little boy died. The poor guy whose lower leg and sneaker floats to the bottom.
THE SCENE MOST PERTINENT HOWEVER COMES NEXT.
The mayor, staring at nothing. Puffing his cigarette. Saying," my own kids were on that beach Martin." People needlessly died ( on his hands) and they were no closer to opening. In fact they were furthur away. But at that moment he voices his lament, he contemplated himself sending his own kids to be a fishes lunch.
There was one choice economically. Kill the fish.
That movie 47 years recognised our human pattern quite accurately. Anyone watching recognised that pattern as highly realistic. And so it is now. When Quint made his pitch, it was to pay now, " if you want your businesses to return on a paying basis." Or Spend the winter on welfare. Killing the shark! That is the remedy. Don’t swim till you do.
Of course everything I wrote leaves us with one of the two horrible packages of woe. The only thing I can offer here is a pitch to " dust off" REAL CATHOLOCISM and introduce yourself. It’s all there just outside of the ego driven illusion that we have control. In humility, CATHOLOCISM takes on its true splendor. Then you can share it.
You point out suicide, depression, and a list of horrible. On the other hand, we are not talking about saving lives in the abstract. These are " our" close family and friends. What happens when your decision to venture out kills your most cherished is the most paralysis inducing idea we ever faced. I know that is an overwhelming thought for most. Leaving them behind in economic conditions that are deteriorating is another. It isn’t going off to a foreign war. It’s inviting the warzone wherever you live. TO THE EXTENT you imagine sending OTHERS out as happens with the draft, there are enough celebrities and rich peoples names being mentioned as sick to know there is no shelter. I mention this because it’s a given that the poor are always at high risk.
We have to remember that money can be made, lost, and made again. We are resilient if healthy. Trump’s life is an oscillating marathon of bankruptsy, to rich, and he finds himself president in his 70s.
WE AREN’T MONKEYS! WE CAN CHOOSE TO LET GO OF THE BANANA.
I cannot get the Mayor of AMITY out of my mind from the movie Jaws. His exertion of single minded pressure to ," open the beaches." I watched the 17 second you tube video of him yesterday just to refresh my memory.
" This is the best summer we are ever going to have."
Or his news conference:
" A large predator has been caught."
He was told it wasn’t the shark, but he sold swimming because economic necessity made him deaf.
How similar to this crisis now.
And they made the wrong choice. The little boy died. The poor guy whose lower leg and sneaker floats to the bottom.
THE SCENE MOST PERTINENT HOWEVER COMES NEXT.
The mayor, staring at nothing. Puffing his cigarette. Saying," my own kids were on that beach Martin." People needlessly died ( on his hands) and they were no closer to opening. In fact they were furthur away. But at that moment he voices his lament, he contemplated himself sending his own kids to be a fishes lunch.
There was one choice economically. Kill the fish.
That movie 47 years recognised our human pattern quite accurately. Anyone watching recognised that pattern as highly realistic. And so it is now. When Quint made his pitch, it was to pay now, " if you want your businesses to return on a paying basis." Or Spend the winter on welfare. Killing the shark! That is the remedy. Don’t swim till you do.
Of course everything I wrote leaves us with one of the two horrible packages of woe. The only thing I can offer here is a pitch to " dust off" REAL CATHOLOCISM and introduce yourself. It’s all there just outside of the ego driven illusion that we have control. In humility, CATHOLOCISM takes on its true splendor. Then you can share it.
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Socrates92
Guest
Uh huh. Here’s one example. Yes, I know this one’s from Quebec, but the same principle applies. https://www.narcity.com/news/ca/soc...gHHu-y4V3wT9UtTVvuQSA6y6GsI2wedQe95kkYugmptuc
Presumably, the marginal additional risk from human interaction on the off-chance that you get in a crash is justification to ban pleasure driving all together…
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
That is not a very good example of an obviously unnecessary rule. First of all, it is not actually a binding rule. It is a strong recommendation. And it makes sense because long drives in the country often involve stopping for gas, stopping to pee, getting something to eat. It sounds like a well thought-out suggestion to me. Keep the virus contained by limiting travel.
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PetraG
Guest
Exactly. This isn’t about “if it just saves one life.” This is about shutting down earlier rather than later in order to keep our health care system and eventually our morgues from being overwhelmed by the inundation. It is about keeping physicians from the decision of who is to be treated and who is to be denied treatment, and honestly keeping physicians and other healthcare workers from dying. This infection only kills a small fraction of those it infects, but even a small fraction is a very large number.
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It isn’t a matter of whether to shut down or not. This disease will shut your region down. It will deal a huge blow to your economy. That is going to happen. The question is whether your region will shut down too late or not.
And by the way, if you are still in doubt, look up what “at risk” means and how many Americans are in that category. It does not mean you are at death’s door, as some seem to think it does. It includes a huge fraction of our population who are dealing with serious health matters such as obesity, hypertension or diabetes but who live very active lives, such as Louisiana State Rep. Reggie Bagala, who was only 54 years old.
Anyone who thinks we can just shut everything down with no concern for the ramifications of the shutting down itself does not understand the nature of the decisions that our governors are having to make. This is an extremely difficult time to be in a leadership position. Pray for our leaders: our government leaders, our education leaders, our business leaders, the leaders of our families. They have very hard decisions to make, decisions not between the right decision and the wrong one but between two routes that will each lead to their own unknowable types and amounts of damage. Let’s agree that none of us are going to talk as if these decisions are easy ones or that there is a “good” way through this in practical terms.
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whatistrue
Guest
I did, and saw my picture next to the definition. Almost 62, diabetic, taking blood pressure medication, and only stopped smoking about 2 years ago after having done so most of my adult life. Oh, and overweight, but not really obese. My wife is 64, diabetic, takes a different combination of blood pressure meds, and has asthma. I will not mention her weight, except to say that our opinions differ. We are being careful and getting the cabin fever that goes with it.
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billsherman
Guest
It’s not pro-life to trade lives for the economy.
The economy can, and will, be fixed. It always has before. The Great Depression. World War II in Europe. The Black Death. All were worse economic disasters than this. All were fixed.
Life. Once lost, is always lost.
If you are willing to trade lives for dollars, you are not pro-life. Not even a little.
The economy can, and will, be fixed. It always has before. The Great Depression. World War II in Europe. The Black Death. All were worse economic disasters than this. All were fixed.
Life. Once lost, is always lost.
If you are willing to trade lives for dollars, you are not pro-life. Not even a little.
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PetraG
Guest
You’re wise. The “fortunate” thing is that you’d be 85% or even maybe 95% likely to have a “milder” form of the infection if you were to get it. Those odds only look encouraging to someone who isn’t bothered by the prospect of having a turn at Russian roulette, though.
I’m not 60 yet, but I’m definitely in the “at risk” group. Considering the epidemic levels of hypertension and obesity in this country, not to mention diabetes, there are a huge number of Americans in the “at risk” group. If the infection were to be unleashed unfettered, the level of the disaster would be extreme.
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Socrates92
Guest
Fair enough. There are strong undertones of the threat to make it binding soon though. For example, they’ve already closed the bridge between Ottawa and Gatineau to “non-essential” travel.
does not require you to give anyone a hug. You’re really not close to others at all.
If they really wanted to, the gas stop convenience stores could be closed to walk-ins, and people could just pay at the pump. I would argue that this is unnecessary - I’m sure you’d disagree, but their is no logical necessity that we agree on that point for people to continue to drive around.
Here’s another, probably better example of overreach. The genius in Michigan decided that it was ok for hardware stores to stay open, but not to sell paint. Go figure. What Michigan's new coronavirus stay-at-home executive order means | Bridge Michigan
Here’s another one, from Oakville, ON. The man was out rollerblading with his kids in an empty parking lot, and in imminent danger of passing the virus to a nearby tree. Thankfully, there was a valiant police officer nearby who fearlessly breached social distance guidelines to ticket the egregious offender. Coronavirus: Oakville, Ont., family hit with $880 ticket after going rollerblading - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
This Atlantic Major wants people to all go outside at the same time to encourage social distancing. https://v103.radio.com/articles/feature-article/metro-atlanta-city-places-curfew-over-coronavirus
What was that thing you said earlier…
They do seem to be having difficulty with it, I’ll agree.
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Socrates92
Guest
It’s even more aggravating in Canada, where our Prime Minister himself doesn’t even pretend to believe in the restrictions that are being enforced.
Either, he doesn’t give a hoot about his country, or he personally thinks the restrictions are pointless but likes the power rush.
JoeFreedom
New member
This is a good thing. Trillions of people could have died unless that officer stepped in. Also, the trees could have mutated the virus if we passed it on to the trees. We must send this officer our praises.
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Socrates92
Guest
Fair point. Far be it from me to start an intergalactic bio-war.
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Anrakyr
Guest
I’m going to try to end the thread right here right now.
The mortality of the virus is closer to 5% in well developed countries. Even if your predicted percentage is correct in the US alone there’s over 300 million people.
That’s 3 million dead. All need to be buried, all likely in a hospital bed as they pass. Double that number of people requiring some kind of care.
Plus everything else.
Your country will break.
So you can either take a recession/depression on the chin or deal with millions dead and dying.
Take your pick.
If you choose poorly keep it in the US. The rest of the world would rather live.
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Anrakyr
Guest
That story was debunked earlier today.
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