Who's Going to Pay the Bills?: Purpose-Driven Coronavirus Business Shutdowns Cause Economic Catastrophe

[farronwolf]

Has your life been deprived. Has your liberty been. Has your property. No

You seem to keep ignoring the Bishop issue. Wonder why.

Anyone at your door with a gun. Nope. Any reason you need a gun today that you didn’t have yesterday. We can still buy them in texas. Those are essential businesses.

If you really want to challenge the current restrictions get on the phone to a lawyer so you can have your due process. Tell us all what they say.

 

[PetraG]

The politicians say that you can disregard the Constitution for this reason or for that reason which in this case is supposedly for the public safety. But it has not been proven that imprisoning people in their homes promotes public safety.

Universal Declaration of Human rights:

Article 20.​

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

The American politicians have decided to throw this out the window and prohibit the peaceful assembly of more than 10 people in a place of worship.

There is a difference between “the politicians” and attorneys who are familiar with constitutional law:
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

When and where did you go to law school? I think your legal analysis is flawed.
If you think some judge is going to look at the situation in Wuhan or the Lombardy region or the state of New York and conclude that widespread restrictions of assembly are unconstitutional, I think you’re very much mistaken.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There is no constitutional authority by governors to disallow freedom of speech (shutting down peaceful protests)

That they bring their guns and Swastikas is at least threatening violence, which thankfully has not exploded yet.

, freedom of religion (closing up houses of worship)

A national emergency justifies temporary restrictions.

closing up restaurants and determining essential businesses willy nilly

Not willy-nilly. An overwhelming majority of Americans support the temporary restrictions.

 

[AlNg]

I think you’re very much mistaken.

Oh OK. I thought that Americans had the right to peaceful assembly. I was looking at the 14th amendment to the Constitution and to the Universal Declaration of Human rights. So Americans don’t have the right of peaceful assembly after all, in spite of the 14th amendment and in spite of the UDHR?

 

[PetraG]

Oh OK. I thought that Americans had the right to peaceful assembly. I was looking at the 14th amendment to the Constitution and to the Universal Declaration of Human rights. So Americans don’t have the right of peaceful assembly after all, in spite of the 14th amendment and in spite of the UDHR?

Have you complained that your right to free speech has been abridged because you aren’t allowed to incite a riot, either?

 

[Pattylt]

I think that when President. Trump declared a state of emergency, certain rights can be abridged during that crisis. If the state of emergency hadn’t been declared or if it continues after its lifted, then you would be right. States of emergencies give extra powers to governors and the federal government.

 

[AlNg]

I think that when President. Trump declared a state of emergency, certain rights can be abridged during that crisis.

So the Constitutional rights and the rights guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can be abridged without due process of law? Simply by an executive order?

Have you complained that your right to free speech has been abridged because you aren’t allowed to incite a riot, either?

I was speaking of peaceful assembly and the denial of the right to peaceful assembly without due process of law. The order to stay imprisoned at home without due process of law. The order to close gun shops and other businesses without due process of law.
“No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;”

 

[otjm]

I think we’re going to see that this was all way overblown precisely for the purposes of instituting more social controls, making the average person a neurotic germophobe, and changing workers’ demeanor from one of what slight dignity we had left to a groverling, scraping wretch who will tolerate anything for a few scraps from our rulers’ table.

It would appear you have not paid very close attention to what has gone on.

1. New York, and New York City in particular, came pretty close to a medical collapse, meaning more people in such a medical meltdown that they would overfill the ICU capability to handle the massive numbers - Italy pretty much got there.
2. Japan, a country with a different and more compliant cultural outlook, went to lockdown and then released it, and had a whip-snap of more cases.
3. When we are out of lockdown, it is far more likely it will be with social distancing and masks as a means of reducing - not eliminating, but reducing - the rate of infections.
4. people who are elderly - a significant number of our aging population - are most at risk, along with those who have a compromised immune system.
5. China lies and the WHO repeated their lies… It is beyond easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback; but we had no real world information as to how bad “bad” was, and initial information in the US - particularly out of the Seattle area - was that we had something that moved like wildfire and was seriously deadly.
6. Bill de Blasio opening and publicly said that the virus was not that contagious and that people should keep on ding what they had been doing and not panicking. We have had the opportunity to see what a laissez faire attitude can result in. He may have apologized for that lack of leadership - I have not heard it.
7. There are a number of conspiracy theories floating around, including that because of the up-coming Presidential Election, the liberals - the media, Congress, and State governors - are dragging their feet in hopes that things either medically or economically will be so bad that they are hoping that the electorate will blame Trump and vote him out. Those same people may face the same consequences depending on their actions or lack thereof.
8. The fact that there are conspiracy theories floating around does not mean there is no conspiracy. On the other hand, one has to ask if the liberals are capable of concerted coordination of either manipulating the medical or the economic side, as they have constituents, many of whom are becoming demanding. Mass civil disobedience is not something unknown in our history.

(continued)

 

[HarryStotle]

JoeFreedom:

There is no constitutional authority by governors to disallow freedom of speech (shutting down peaceful protests)

That they bring their guns and Swastikas is at least threatening violence, which thankfully has not exploded yet.

One of those supposed swastikas was a Bernie Sander’s supporter who wanted the protestors to look bad back in March at a Trump rally in Arizona. The picture wasn’t taken in Michigan in April. The man was clearly photographed in a T-shirt disparaging Trump prior to unfurling the flag.

The other was a commentary on Whitmer’s imposing authoritarian measures. The caption was Heil Whitmer! So it wasn’t exactly showing support for Naziism; quite the opposite actually.

Do you have evidence of other swastikas being displayed in a manner that legitimately shows support for Naziism or white supremacy, or do you just wish to continue promulgating a misconception?

 

[HarryStotle]

It’s easy to tell who lives in a high-impact area and who lives in a low-impact area just by reading the replies on these threads. Those of you in low-impact areas are not being piled up in refrigerated trucks and buried in mass graves - Not yet. But when the wave hits you, you’ll be singing a different tune.

The recently released CDC numbers overall do not reflect the “high impact” that is being referenced. Look at the numbers for yourself.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

These are the footnotes to the chart…

NOTE: Number of deaths reported in this table are the total number of deaths received and coded as of the date of analysis and do not represent all deaths that occurred in that period.

*Data during this period are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction, age, and cause of death.

1Deaths with confirmed or presumed COVID-19, coded to ICD–10 code U07.1

2Percent of expected deaths is the number of deaths for all causes for this week in 2020 compared to the average number across the same week in 2017–2019. Previous analyses of 2015–2016 provisional data completeness have found that completeness is lower in the first few weeks following the date of death (8).

3Pneumonia death counts exclude pneumonia deaths involving influenza.

4Influenza death counts include deaths with pneumonia or COVID-19 also listed as a cause of death.

5Population is based on 2018 postcensal estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau (9)

Perhaps you have more information on the “refrigerated truck(s)” than I have seen. My understanding is that it was one truck when one hospital morgue was overwhelmed early on. Was it more widespread than that? I am open to seeing information that you might have.

 

[farronwolf]

So the Constitutional rights and the rights guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can be abridged without due process of law? Simply by an executive order?

What state do you live in? Who is it that said you couldn’t leave your home?

I was speaking of peaceful assembly and the denial of the right to peaceful assembly without due process of law. The order to stay imprisoned at home without due process of law. The order to close gun shops and other businesses without due process of law.

Again, who is standing outside your home with a gun “imprisoning” you? No one.

Who has taken your property? Who has taken your life? Who has taken your liberty?

Regardless of how many times you state the same thing, it doesn’t become any more factual. It just starts to sound more and more like you got nothing else.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

One of those supposed swastikas was a Bernie Sander’s supporter who wanted the protestors to look bad back in March at a Trump rally in Arizona.

Actually I looked it up and it was Boise, Idaho. This swastika may not have been in Michigan, but the guns certainly were. I am more worried about them.

 

[farronwolf]

There was a home for the elderly that had to stack 17 deceased in an area designed for 4. Can’t recall where that was.

FEMA sent 85 trucks to New York City.

 

[HarryStotle]

There was a home for the elderly that had to stack 17 deceased in an area designed for 4. Can’t recall where that was.

FEMA sent 85 trucks to New York City.

And they were used?

Look at the CDC chart upthread, the numbers of deaths are below expected averages (based on 2017-2019 numbers) for every week except the week ending April 4, 2020 — and that includes all COVID-19 deaths and “probable” deaths. All the other weeks are below expected.

Other charts on that page show by state and Table 5 includes New York City as a separate line. New York City (and as a result New York State), along with New Jersey are the only two states that have deaths above the averages from 2017 to 2019.

 

[PetraG]

I was speaking of peaceful assembly and the denial of the right to peaceful assembly without due process of law. The order to stay imprisoned at home without due process of law. The order to close gun shops and other businesses without due process of law.
“No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;”

Police powers, which include the power to impose quarantines to combat epidemics, belong to the States. The States did not give this power up when the Constitution was ratified (see 10th Amendment). The US Government has the power to combat the transmission of infectious diseases between states and between the US and other countries. These measures do not depend on taking individuals through some kind of “due process” to establish that they are capable of carrying diseases.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

One of those supposed swastikas was a Bernie Sander’s supporter who wanted the protestors to look bad back in March at a Trump rally in Arizona.

Actually I looked it up and it was Boise, Idaho. This swastika may not have been in Michigan, but the guns certainly were. I am more worried about them.

Right, so NO WORRIES about government tyranny?

 

[farronwolf]

I don’t know if they were all used or not.

What is the chart for nationwide, or by city or what?

With social distancing in effect. Deaths by other causes would naturally go down. Less auto accidents, less workplace deaths, less homicides.

 

[AlNg]

Who has taken your liberty?

The government has shut down many businesses without due process of law. This is taking away the liberty to make a living by selling guns at the local gun shop.

I think we’re going to see that this was all way overblown precisely for the purposes of instituting more social controls, making the average person a neurotic germophobe, and changing workers’ demeanor from one of what slight dignity we had left to a groverling, scraping wretch who will tolerate anything for a few scraps from our rulers’ table.

Absolutely right. Sweden is still a country and hasn’t disappeared from the face of the earth even though Sweden has, unlike many other countries, not applied any lockdown. If quarantines and lockdowns are so effective why do countries with quarantines and lockdowns have much higher rates of deaths per million population than does Sweden which has no quarantines and no lockdowns:
Belgium, Spain, Italy, France, UK, Netherlands all have higher rates of deaths per one million population than does Sweden.

Covid-19: Quarantines are a 'massive human rights violation' | Healthing.ca

 

[HarryStotle]

AlNg:

So the Constitutional rights and the rights guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can be abridged without due process of law? Simply by an executive order?

What state do you live in? Who is it that said you couldn’t leave your home?

I was speaking of peaceful assembly and the denial of the right to peaceful assembly without due process of law. The order to stay imprisoned at home without due process of law. The order to close gun shops and other businesses without due process of law.

Again, who is standing outside your home with a gun “imprisoning” you? No one.

Who has taken your property? Who has taken your life? Who has taken your liberty?

Regardless of how many times you state the same thing, it doesn’t become any more factual. It just starts to sound more and more like you got nothing else.

A surfer was arrested and fined for surfing by himself in California. Churches holding parking lot services in Kentucky where people stayed in their cars were fined and $500 tickets were issued to those who attended despite that they remained in their cars.

It’s okay to buy marijuana or alcohol at dedicated outlets in Michigan, but considered dangerous to buy seeds to plant vegetables or to buy a garden hose.

Don’t you think those are unreasonable infringements on liberty even when there is a supposed “crisis?”

I went out today and purchased cat litter and some tools at a large box store. There were NO areas cordoned off, but social distancing was mandated and arrows were taped on floors to keep people aware of their movements.

I am grateful for living in a province with a ruling party that is here for the people and doesn’t impose draconian measures just because they can.

 

[PetraG]

Right, so NO WORRIES about government tyranny?

Not unless President Trump actually gets total authority.

Oh, sorry, where did I get it that he said that…because we can’t go around trusting “the media.”
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ers-coronavirus-task-force-press-briefing-25/
Q Mr. President, just to clarify your understanding of your authority vis-à-vis governors — just to be very specific: For instance, if a governor issued a stay-at-home order —
THE PRESIDENT: When you say “my authority” — the President’s authority. Not mine, because it’s not me.
Q If I could just ask the question —
THE PRESIDENT: This is — when somebody is the President of the United States, the authority is total, and that’s the way it’s got to be.
Q It’s total? Your authority is total?
THE PRESIDENT: It’s total. It’s total.
Q Your authority is total?
THE PRESIDENT: And the governors know that.
Q So if a governor —
THE PRESIDENT: The governors know that. No, you have —
Q If a governor issues a stay-at-home order, you —
THE PRESIDENT: — a couple of bands of — excuse me. Excuse me. You have a couple —
Q Could you rescind that? Could you rescind that order?
THE PRESIDENT: You have a couple of bands of Democrat governors, but they will agree to it. They will agree to it.
Q What if it was a Republican governor?
THE PRESIDENT: But the authority of the President of the United States, having to do with the subject we’re talking about, is total.