Who's man enough?

[Psalm89]

Island Oak:
How much of that would change if MEN exercised their character and leadership to deny themselves this easy vice and in so doing avoided leading the women whom they care for into this demeaning cesspool of wanton sex? What if, instead of aggressively pursuing more physicality in relationships–ie acting like dogs in heat-- men led by example and restrained their hormones and expected their partners to do likewise? What if instead of seeking out the most experienced, gymnastic sex partner, men valued and sought out the traits of self-restraint, good judgment and morality in the women they dated? And what if, after marriage, men encouraged and assisted their wives to avoid marring their intimate relations by introducing hormones, chemicals, surgery, etc? I guarantee women would respond in kind and THAT would be leadership that could bring about revolutionary cultural change. It is the kind of conduct that earns a position of leadership–not by virtue of gender, but by operation of character.
I don’t think that most modern women were raised around this since 50% now come from broken homes. Most have no concept of this type of guy and would have no idea of what to do with him when they got him.

 

[Fashina86]

It may just be possible that we women are more dedicated. However, there are quite a few men there when I attend weekday Mass… so it all depends

God Bless–JMJ
Laura

 

[buffalo]

Men and women are different. Men’s expectations - give me the path I need to get there and I will do it, even if it’s hard. Watered down effeminate lovey dovey Catholicism does not sit well with men.

 

[Augustine]

Psalm89:

To prove my point think about this. Which would a modern women prefer?

1. A faithful hardworking guy that loves the Lord and goes to church every Sunday even when he would prefer to blow it off for some fun.

or

1. A hardworking guy that takes off most Sundays to promise the girl fun- like short trips (and hotel night stays with sex) and a morning of relaxation and laying around.

Except for sex in the hotel, why would one exclude the other?

Psalm89:

I think that most guys don’t go to church mostly because it gets them nowhere when dating.

OK, wrong priorities. But how about after marrying?

 

[Michael_C]

good post. I often ask the same questions. I can say that I am encouraged when I see other men my age in church. Who knows, maybe someones encouraged when they see me…

 

[jrabs]

Wow - I was just thinking this very thought this past weekend.

I went on a retreat for the weekend and noticed that out of 22 people , there were only 4 men. WHY?

I don’t get it. I look around at daily mass and see mostly women. Why?

 

[Psalm89]

Augustine:

Except for sex in the hotel, why would one exclude the other?

I should have said “all weekend.” This wasn’t including Saturday, but Sunday specifically. I guess someone could go on a weekend trip together when dating (not married) on a Friday night, spend Friday and Saturday night in seperate hotel rooms and then on Sunday morning attend mass at the local parish coming back home Sunday afternoon. I’ve never heard of anybody acually doing this, but it is the way to go if you wish to remain celibate before marriage. It also could create a small scandal because most people assume that when going on a trip together that you are sleeping together.

More to the point though, I was refering to the idea of a woman wanting a guy that makes mass important enough to not sleep in and plans for it on trips as above. I’ve never met a single woman who says, “I want a the type of guy that when we are dating will get me a seperate hotel room and be sure to attend mass.”

How does this affect men? We know that for most women celibacy and regular mass rank below other traits that women look for, so going to church doesn’t rank high on priority lists for attracting women.

Money, looks, confidence, humor etc are high on the list, regular church attendance is probably somewhere around 20 or below.

 

[jrabs]

Psalm89:

I should have said “all weekend.” This wasn’t including Saturday, but Sunday specifically. I guess someone could go on a weekend trip together when dating (not married) on a Friday night, spend Friday and Saturday night in seperate hotel rooms and then on Sunday morning attend mass at the local parish coming back home Sunday afternoon. I’ve never heard of anybody acually doing this, but it is the way to go if you wish to remain celibate before marriage. It also could create a small scandal because most people assume that when going on a trip together that you are sleeping together.

More to the point though, I was refering to the idea of a woman wanting a guy that makes mass important enough to not sleep in and plans for it on trips as above. I’ve never met a single woman who says, “I want a the type of guy that when we are dating will get me a seperate hotel room and be sure to attend mass.”

How does this affect men? We know that for most women celibacy and regular mass rank below other traits that women look for, so going to church doesn’t rank high on priority lists for attracting women.

Money, looks, confidence, humor etc are high on the list, regular church attendance is probably somewhere around 20 or below.

This is sad and true- but celibate people can be found. Last summer I met a man in the parking lot of church. Then we kept running into each other at church functions. He finally asked me out. He is 41 and has limited dating experiece - let me re-phrase this - no dating experience. In fact he applied to the priesthood once and was turned down. He is quiet, shy but has the biggest, sincere hear I ever saw.

The only reason he asked me out after 41 years? Was because I attend daily mass. Then ONLY reason I accepted? Because he attended daily mass and I knew where his prioities lie.

I am thinking about going away with him on a pilgramage - and booking sep hotel rooms. Surprise surprise!

Don’t lose hope.

It can be done, you just need to look for women in the right place - where God shows you to look!!!

 

[LSK]

I don’t think there are more women active in Church today because the Holy Spirit guided the hierarchy to increase our role in the liturgy. I think a lot of women and men bought into the big lie about freedom in sexuality - that there was something liberating about being able to have sex outside of marriage with whomever and whenever one wanted without consequence. Because it always appeared that men could do this - the damage to one’s immortal soul is sometimes hidden from view - women were told that men had this great freedom that was being denied them.

The results were that families did begin to fall apart and, as often happens in a culture, preserving tradition has fallen to the female.

I heard a speaker once talking about his own culture - indigenous peoples - and he said something interesting. He told the men of his tribe that were in the audience that they owed the women of their tribe a great amends and a tremendous thank you - for it was the women who had kept the language, the traditions and the life of their tribe alive. Maybe the same thing is happening to the Church today?

This is simply a thought, not really an opinion.

 

[Prometheum_x]

buffalo:

Men and women are different. Men’s expectations - give me the path I need to get there and I will do it, even if it’s hard. Watered down effeminate lovey dovey Catholicism does not sit well with men.

That is exactly what is happening in the protestant churches. The image of a holy man that is presented is one who is gentle, meek, and mild, soft, warm, and cozy. The unspoken idea is that the Church is no place for a Warrior.

As someone said (I can’t remember who, might be in a John Eldredge book), “We have declawed the Lion of Judah.”

 

[Steph700]

Prometheum_x:

That is exactly what is happening in the protestant churches. The image of a holy man that is presented is one who is gentle, meek, and mild, soft, warm, and cozy. The unspoken idea is that the Church is no place for a Warrior.

As someone said (I can’t remember who, might be in a John Eldredge book), “We have declawed the Lion of Judah.”

Warrior? Maybe that is a bit extreme- although having read some of John Eldredge’s books I think I know what you are getting at. I guess when I think warrior I think violence and agression… and well, war, so NO- gosh as a single woman as much as I would like to see more men in the pews I don’t want to see any warriors.

I think the church can meet all the needs all the various people bring to it- whether it is a sensitive man, a sporty woman, or people who fit into “traditional” gender categories. If the service doesn’t suit you, then get involved. There’s absolutely no excuse for the absense of men in Church. None. As a single woman looking for a man of God to share her life with I think it’s a bunch of baloney to say “well, the modern woman wants a bad boy… a challenge to chase down, someone who doesn’t go to mass”. Whatever, this modern woman is not impressed by that kind of man in the first place. If some of the other male posters on this thread are upset b/c some woman has turned them down in favor of a rebel, I have to say, Have you questioned what kind of woman she was in the first place? Believe me, there are plenty orthodox women out there who would like nothing more than to share their life with a dedicated Catholic man- whether or not he is macho, whether or not he likes the music at mass.

Dont settle. You deserve a mate who shares your values. But don’t make excuses either. Men should be in mass.

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

I doubt that because birth control was made available to people in The U.S is the reason for men not attending church. For one many men believe if they are providing financially they are doing what they should and that’s it.
Number 2 the sexual practices of today are tame compared Renaissance artists. Some of whom were commisioned by The Roman Catholic Church. I am sure they attended church regulary.
Finally, if we go back to Biblical times there was a type of temple worship where people would have sex with prostitutes, so to blame men not being in church because of the evil horrible sexual practices of today is a bit reductionist and not looking at how men, in general, think.

 

[Psalm89]

Steph700:

I think the church can meet all the needs all the various people bring to it- whether it is a sensitive man, a sporty woman, or people who fit into “traditional” gender categories. If the service doesn’t suit you, then get involved. There’s absolutely no excuse for the absense of men in Church. None. As a single woman looking for a man of God to share her life with I think it’s a bunch of baloney to say “well, the modern woman wants a bad boy… a challenge to chase down, someone who doesn’t go to mass”. Whatever, this modern woman is not impressed by that kind of man in the first place. If some of the other male posters on this thread are upset b/c some woman has turned them down in favor of a rebel, I have to say, Have you questioned what kind of woman she was in the first place? Believe me, there are plenty orthodox women out there who would like nothing more than to share their life with a dedicated Catholic man- whether or not he is macho, whether or not he likes the music at mass.

No excuses about not going to mass. Men should go. The fact that they aren’t going is their decision. Regardless of what women want they should go.

When I was much younger I was turned down by a girl I loved for her choice of the rebel guy. I wised up though and I agree with you, the women that chase those guys aren’t worth the time of day. My point is, the majority of the women I know like the “rebels” (and this has been my own unfortunate experience both inside the church and out) is that those types of women are the majority not the minority.

Since the majority of the women I know chase the “rebels” (at least in their 20’s as 30 and above approach the priorities change) the men change their behavior to suit what the women are looking for. Hence the term “players”. Even though the women who chase “players” aren’t good choices for mates, for many men bad is better than none.

“Players” don’t go to church, but they do get the women. If a man chooses to become a player, then he has chosen his own selfish desire over God. The temptation is very real though, and there are plenty of willing women that will buy whatever line you feed them to get them in the sack.

To restate my point.

1. The majority of modern women are attracted to wealth, confidence and “players.”
2. Men who in general are very pragmatic, see this.
3. This is all reinforced by our culture: media, sit-coms, advertising, reality shows and extreme feminism. (Sex)
4. Men alter their behavior to attact the maximum amount of women because they think it will bring them happiness. (Sex)
5. Men stop going to church because it doesn’t fit the “player” lifestyle. (Sex)
6. Women are left in the church.

Steph700, I admire that your choices. I pray that more women are like you, but be aware that you are in the minority.

 

[Psalm89]

jrabs:

The only reason he asked me out after 41 years? Was because I attend daily mass. Then ONLY reason I accepted? Because he attended daily mass and I knew where his prioities lie.

I am thinking about going away with him on a pilgramage - and booking sep hotel rooms. Surprise surprise!

Don’t lose hope.

It can be done, you just need to look for women in the right place - where God shows you to look!!!

Thank you jrabs I appreciate your post. I do pray about this almost daily. It is very frustrating at times going out with women who claim to be Christians and then after a short time dating, there is nothing in their life that qualifies them as such. I would rather them just say they are non-believers, that way I don’t have to find out a month or two down the road.

This has happened to me repeatitly over the last couple of years and has made me a bit cynical and non-trusting as of late. This is something else I pray about. My cynicism.

 

[montanaman]

Mass-going, confession going, rosary-praying, Bible-reading 31-year-old man here.

So, that’s a start.

 

[MonicaC]

I think that from what I have noticed and this is what we do in our house, I will go to mass with my daughter who is old enough to behave while my husband will stay home with our younger son. I know quite a bit of other couples who do this. It just makes things easier. And as far as church functions I know that my husband is usually too tired to attend these and so I will sometimes go on my own. i don’t think there is really anything to worry about.

 

[turboEDvo]

I just realized something: most guys I know DON’T like getting up at 6:20 on Sundays. So, I guess maybe I’m weird like that, getting up to go to church and all. Heaven forbid that anything disrupt a man’s precious sleep. Not to say that church has to interfere with sleep…unless you choose to sleep all day like some people I know, in which case, yes, it does.

Eamon

 

[Augustine]

Psalm89:

More to the point though, I was refering to the idea of a woman wanting a guy that makes mass important enough to not sleep in and plans for it on trips as above. I’ve never met a single woman who says, “I want a the type of guy that when we are dating will get me a seperate hotel room and be sure to attend mass.”

I turn the question around: which man wants the type of women who will have a weekend of sex?

Could it be 60% of men? Perhaps the same 60% who favor abortion?

But this isn’t the right question either. Do you want such women? Your answer will tell you what kind of man you are.

Don’t compromise who you are because you long for a companion or the temptation is irresistible. You’d be compromising yourself and your soul.

And I don’t speak as a hypocrite, for I’m someone whose soul is dead for the reasons above. May God have mercy on me.

Psalm89:

How does this affect men? We know that for most women celibacy and regular mass rank below other traits that women look for, so going to church doesn’t rank high on priority lists for attracting women.

Not to attract the type of women above. What kind of woman do you want? Where do you think it’s more likely to find the kind of woman you want on a Sunday morning?

Psalm89:

Money, looks, confidence, humor etc are high on the list, regular church attendance is probably somewhere around 20 or below.

And just what does it all have to do with Heaven?

 

[Augustine]

LSK:

I don’t think there are more women active in Church today because the Holy Spirit guided the hierarchy to increase our role in the liturgy.

I agree with you, because women have been the majority in church ever since I can remember, going back about 25 years ago.

LSK:

Because it always appeared that men could do this - the damage to one’s immortal soul is sometimes hidden from view - women were told that men had this great freedom that was being denied them.

Isn’t it funny that feminism’s goal is that women become like men, denying everything that’s feminine? Well, I don’t think it’s funny…

LSK:

The results were that families did begin to fall apart and, as often happens in a culture, preserving tradition has fallen to the female.

It’s always been the women’s role to preserve tradition and the good costumes. Somehow, men are just too sleazy to keep up the morals.

Where was it said that a couple broke apart and the men found himself a worldly woman like him and they lived a worldly life. But the woman met a worldly man and turned him into a God fearing man?

 

[seeker63]

I’m a single man in my early 40s, just got confirmed via RCIA in December, and I’ve gone to church pretty much by myself for over 20 years. I feel I must look a little odd, but that’s how it goes.

I noticed a lot of couples in my RCIA class who were about to get married. It was pretty obvious most were cohabitating. The class instructor had to take them aside privately and warn them to get their acts together. Some were brazen enough to list themselves as being at the same address. And naturally, they didn’t understand what “all the fuss” was about.