Who's man enough?

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I dunno, I noticed the same with my grandparents, the lone daughter was more devout than my uncles. By the same toke, grandma went to mass daily, I never knew my grandfather to go to church until I helped carry his casket out (of the church).

All of my uncles and aunts went to Cahtolic school, stopping at high school, so clearly they were taught.

In my own case, when I started my second family, I had basically given up the church of my upbringing (Mormon) after my divorce. I didn’t feel the need to get into anything regimented until early last year. Sure, it was a little awkward when my daughter made First Communion, and dear ol’ dad couldn’t receive, but it only became an issue when I noticed that my son wouldn’t get into line at Communion time. The only reason that I could come up with is because his dad didn’t.

I have since enrolled in RCIA.

Men as head of the house? An interesting question. Some of it, I believe is the subtle effects of the feminist movement. I’ve noticed that my wife sets herself at the head of the table, and sets my place at the left (which could be a fair insult in the world of Emily post.) When I raise the issue, she just shrugs.

BTW, I get frustrated when she makes major decisions and either ignores my view or blithely sends us off a cliff without thinking to ask. Part of this may be due to the fact that her mother is clearly dominant in THAT house. So I think it may be environmental.

How do we change this? Maybe it’s in how we raise our daughters? I know that I don’t have the answers!
 
Interesting question, in my grandfather’s devoutly Irish-Catholic family, my aunt was much stronger in the faith than my uncles (most, if not all were altar servers in their season). They all attended Catholic school up until the start of high school, so they were all well Cathechised.

By the same token, grandma went to daily Mass and the only time I saw grandpa in church is the day I helped carry out his casket. Go figure! I know that he seemed to harbor resentment against church for not doing more to aid the poor Irish (shadows of the famine?), so sometimes I quip that his views were slightly softer than Sinead O’Connor’s. He came from a time period where priests “meddled”. I think I came to understand part of his viewpoint when I read “Trinity.”

When I divorced, I gave up the faith that I had been raised in (baptised Catholic, but raised Mormon). Through these many years of marriage to my second wife it wasn’t a problem. I attended more Masses per year than the average. Sure, it was a little embarassing last Spring when my daughter made First Communion and dear ol’ dad couldn’t receive.

The event that changed that is my five-year-old son. He wouldn’t even get in the Communion line to receive a blessing with mom and Sissy, the only reason that I could fathom was I stayed in the pew.

I enrolled in RCIA and this Easter will be (knock wood) in full participation.

Men as Heads of Household

I think this is the subtle and not so subtle effects of feminism.

My mother-in-law rules the house where my wife was raised! The fruit of this is that in our house at the evening meal, my wife always sets herself at the head of the table, with me on her left (which would be an insult in the world of Emily Post). Even though I asked her about this, she just shrugged. I don’t make an issue as I am frequently still at work when dinner is set, so it’s perhaps better than emphasizing that there is a hole at the family table. Granted, this changes for formal, family occassions, where I and my father-in-law get the head and foot of the table.

My wife will also either disregard my very rare “no” or make large decisions without me. Because of her frame of reference, she doesn’t even think that I should/would have a problem with it. Does she love me? Yes, but how to work within a husband/wife framework just elludes her. So it’s not malice, it’s just her upbring and expediency. It takes time to track me down and clear a decision or date before calendaring something. Of course, being a previously-owned husband, I am acustomed to the process and do it without thinking.

We can “discuss” this endlessly, but when the opportunity arises, the learned patterns always reassert. Is it worth the turmoil and undertainty it creates in the family, I usually think not.

Solutions?

How do we change this, it has to be the way that our daughters are raised would be my answer.

How to get more men in church is also a matter of training and experience over time. I’m just not sure that there is time enough.

Trying to get the younger fathers involved is problem. The working dads are hard enough to get to Mass, let alone any additional meetings. I’ve been helping to launch an Ancient Order of Hibernian division which has proved to be all too popular with the retirees.

I suspect that this lack of parish involvement hurts the school enrollment as the lack of participation (buy in) by fathers I believe drives the decisions to save money, pull the kids and go elsewhere.
 
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TomK:
How do we change this? Maybe it’s in how we raise our daughters? I know that I don’t have the answers!
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This book is a must read!

LOVE & RESPECT

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Don’t know if anyone’s seen the following link, but it looks promising enough:

trueknights.org

also,

www.e5men.org

I think that most men would have utter respect for the way Jesus endured His crucifixion and death. Unfortunately, this is not always the image of Our Lord which has been presented in popular culture, and this may have adversely influenced the general perception of Jesus.

Personally, I think that following Jesus and becoming more like Him is the most exciting challenge any man (or woman) could ever face. Also, although I see fewer people of my generation in Church, I have noticed a hard core of younger people turning up regularly to daily Mass at the Cathedral nearby where I work, and interestingly, there are slightly more young men than women!
 
At my parish I see it as evenly divided. We have many couples with loads and loads of little children. Single women and single men too. Not to throw a wrench into it, but this is my personal view. Again, it’s mine only. Maybe why so many parishes have women make up the bulk of the attendance may be, and again I say may be due to fact that women are taking over all the tasks in the Church. Lectors, EMHC’s, altar girls, ushers, etc etc. However, in my parish we only have male altar servers, (they range from little boys -elementary-, teens-middle school, young men,-high school and college young men- and adult men) and men lectors… We have greeters that are mostly couples. Young girls helping with the day care, the distribution and collecting of missals etc. The choirs, both children and adult, seem to be evenly divided. We have only 1 man EHMC but he helps only during the weekday mass when our pastor and deacon go on a pilgrimage. Sunday mass both our priests and one of our deacons will distribute communion at all four masses.
 
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Psalm89:
The other part as I see it is that guys that go to church are often looked at by modern women as boring and uninteresting. I don’t go to church to get dates, but my beliefs certainly haven’t landed me any dates. Most single women I know would probably prefer if the guys they chase don’t go to church, so they are more exciting and rebelious.

Being a strong in convictions, polite, responsible, hard-working, honest, kind and other postive traits taught at church actually work against a guy sometimes when attracting women. It is seen as boring … I think that most guys don’t go to church mostly because it gets them nowhere when dating.
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I think there are a lot of tired generalizations on this thread. All modern women do not prefer men who want sex and relaxation. I am a modern woman who wants to live chastely and faithfully, and I only want a man who has the same values. I’m sure that is true of many women who go to Mass every Sunday and write on this forum. In fact, we’ve already discussed that women outnumber men in both of the above locations. Women, I find, are even more frustrated at not being able to find quality men.

The quality woman you seek will find your convictions and honesty refreshing.
 
I started going to daily mass last week, and everyone there was older. Mostly 50 or older. I did not see many people that were younger, male or female.

I have not noticed a difference in whether women attend mass more than men.
 
Interesting discussion and insight. For the record, I’m married (will be 10 years this year) and we plan and pray to have children. I attend TLM Mass alone as my wife prefers the Pauline rite (yes, we do compromise).

Maybe I should pay more attention to what is going on around me, however when at Mass I concentrate on preparation for the Celebration, examination of conscience, contrition and the day’s focus and readings. After Mass we often have coffee in the hall and I notice there are many children of all ages, often with both mother and father, there are individual men & women, married & unmarried couples of various ages. There may be a few more individual women than men, though the difference is minimal. I’m also not sure how many forgoe the coffee and leave after Mass or the sexes/ages that attend other times or days.

Some of the folksy/hippie songs I’ve experienced are sappy/wimpy and definitely non-masculine, when I attend those I rarely return. This causes more issues and misconceptions than we may realize.

However, I don’t think it is a question of being man enough. I think it is too easy to be distracted today and/or to make excuses one can rationalize. Publicly admitting need and dependance is misconstrued in secular culture as a sign of weakness, when in fact it is a sign of strength, more so when we admit our need is for God. Further, as Catholics we submit to the authority of the Church which is a foreign concept to the self-sufficient, self-centered view of modernist/secular culture.

When I think of the courage of the Martyrs, Saints, Prophets and Our Lord…my attendance at Mass and devotion pales in comparison…talk about strength and courage! I also know many “everyday” Catholics attend Mass daily, do charitable works, go on retreat and pilgrameges, defend the innocent and exemplify Our Lord in their daily lives far more effectively than do I, or may ever (though I pray and strive to improve). These are the everyday “heroes” of the Church both lay and clergy, this is the true strengh of our Church and where I find true courage, I don’t envy I admire and give thanks and hope I may better follow their examples.
 
I am I hope. read my post titled “my motherinlaw and the good samaritans” to show what Im going through now. Many men in this day and age have become milktoast weenies! with many boys not being raised with a decent father figure. God meant for the family to be Mother, Father, and children, with the help of extended family. Not Mom, live in boyfriend, with kids who dont have the same father. and now the problem has gone to the female side too, because I know a few single fathers, who are single because mom gaveup on her motherly resonsebilities.
 
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TobyLue:
At my parish I see it as evenly divided. We have many couples with loads and loads of little children. Single women and single men too. Not to throw a wrench into it, but this is my personal view. Again, it’s mine only. Maybe why so many parishes have women make up the bulk of the attendance may be, and again I say may be due to fact that women are taking over all the tasks in the Church. Lectors, EMHC’s, altar girls, ushers, etc etc. However, in my parish we only have male altar servers, (they range from little boys -elementary-, teens-middle school, young men,-high school and college young men- and adult men) and men lectors… We have greeters that are mostly couples. Young girls helping with the day care, the distribution and collecting of missals etc. The choirs, both children and adult, seem to be evenly divided. We have only 1 man EHMC but he helps only during the weekday mass when our pastor and deacon go on a pilgrimage. Sunday mass both our priests and one of our deacons will distribute communion at all four masses.
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That does it. I’m moving to Texas!! 😃

But seriously, I think you have hit on an important issue here. I think an increase in females participating in the Mass (as EMHCs, lectors, prayer-leaders, etc.) has left a lot of men wondering where they fit in. I really think that organizations like the Knights of Columbus should be enthusiastically encouraged. My husband is a knight, and is practically the only member without gray hair in his council. This is discouraging for him and it is sometimes hard to get him to go to meetings and things. But I think it is important for him to be around other men of faith.
On a more personal note, it was my husband’s faith that attracted me to him. I give him all the credit for helping me turn my life around and re-introducing me to my Catholic faith. So all you men out there, struggling to stay on the right path, take heart! There is a woman out there who will love you for the right reasons. Just remember that on the narrow path, it may be a little more difficult to find a traveling companion, but it is definately worth the wait!!
 
That does it. I’m moving to Texas!! 😃
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Interesting that you say that. I see from your profile that you are from Ohio. One family who happens to be one of our closest friends at our parish moved from Cincinnati, Ohio to SA four years ago due to husband work. They had choice of some 25 cities but they chose SAT because of the parish and a Marianist High School that they thought was best for their teen son. My son and him are now seniors and the best of friends.
 
I believe the lack of men in the Church (protestant too) has to do with the feminizing of religion since the 1960’s. I go to Mass and I hear touchy-feely sermons about “love one another” instead of concrete Catholic advice about how to make Catholic decisions in daily life to follow Christ. I see touchy-feely retreats going on that are a bunch of fluff and feelings. No real meat. While some may benefit from these retreats and sermons, get real. The men should be the spiritual heads of the household, and when priests are all fluff and feathers, it’s not drawing lay men to the masculine brotherly Christ they seek.
 
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mass4life:
I go to Mass and I hear touchy-feely sermons about “love one another” instead of concrete Catholic advice about how to make Catholic decisions in daily life to follow Christ.
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You raised very good points.

Many priests are shy to talk about sin, particularly those which claim to Heaven, such as abortion and divorce. Darn, not even “minor” sins are mentioned, such as immodest attire, receiving the Eucharist aware of grave sins, etc.

This attitude reminds me of a certain follower of Jesus who put social do-gooding ahead of spiritual healing…

:blessyou:
 
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mass4life:
I believe the lack of men in the Church (protestant too) has to do with the feminizing of religion since the 1960’s. I go to Mass and I hear touchy-feely sermons about “love one another” instead of concrete Catholic advice about how to make Catholic decisions in daily life to follow Christ. I see touchy-feely retreats going on that are a bunch of fluff and feelings. No real meat. While some may benefit from these retreats and sermons, get real. The men should be the spiritual heads of the household, and when priests are all fluff and feathers, it’s not drawing lay men to the masculine brotherly Christ they seek.
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Dr Laura claims American men have been “turned into capons.” You see this from the beginning. Notice how many boys are now drugged for acting like boys. I remember in grade school how it was sometimes difficult for the boys to sit still. But we didn’t ‘sedate’ them into being quiet little girls. Also the number of single mothers who do not have the time, energy or male role models to raise their boys to be men, not just males.

I think the anti war movement of the 60s also feminized the image of men…you know long hair, flowers, strumming guitars…Woody Allen as an icon (may I say EWWWWWWW at the thought?). We came a long way from the John Wayne as American man image and I for one, do not think it was a good thing. Then we tried to turn women into men. I had that idea drilled into me from day one. Being a wife, being a mother were no roles for a smart woman. Only women who ‘couldn’t do anything else’ were stuck in those antiquated roles.

Discipleship is not easy and definitely not fluffy. The man as protector of his family (no not gratuitiously violent) could be an appropriate image. Not just protector from physical harm but from spiritual harm as well. Men need to step up and I believe women will respond accordingly.

That being said, our RCIA group has four men and seven women. Not a great ratio but not depressing.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Dr Laura claims American men have been “turned into capons.” You see this from the beginning. Notice how many boys are now drugged for acting like boys. I remember in grade school how it was sometimes difficult for the boys to sit still. But we didn’t ‘sedate’ them into being quiet little girls.
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Anyone here have experience teaching boys raised in other (non-western, say Africa or some islands) countries? They are near impeccable students, and it isn’t due to drugs. They are a dream come true for an American teacher. They seem quite masculine, and not feminine.
 
It could also be a matter of guys needing something tangible. Guys are traditionally more kinesthetic learners that girls. For a guy to be interested, he has to be convinced, and God can’t be touched in a form that makes it convincing for many guys. “Is it the Body and Blood of Jesus?” “Yes.” “Well, why does it look and taste like bread and wine then.” “It transubstantiates into blood and body, while retaining its physical form of wine and bread.” That is not something that’s easy to wrap your head around, and you definitely cannot see it happen. No scientific experiment (other than in the case of miracles) will show that it is anything other than bread and wine. For many guys I know, they don’t know how to reconcile this. It’s like telling them that a light is turned on and off at the same time: they will think you are nuts. In their eyes, it is one or the other, and can’t be both.

Just look at how guys act when they are mad vs. girls. Guys yell, get their feelings out, hit each other, and the argument is over. Everyone is friends again. Girls sometimes are not as up-front about things. They spend more time thinking about it. It isn’t typically a guy thing to spend lots of time considering a relationship and whether it is worth getting mad at each other, they just do. And, when everything is over, it is much easier to patch things up. Now, if you apply that to your relationship with God, then maybe they think that patching everything up later won’t be a big deal.

Eamon
 
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TobyLue:
Interesting that you say that. I see from your profile that you are from Ohio. One family who happens to be one of our closest friends at our parish moved from Cincinnati, Ohio to SA four years ago due to husband work. They had choice of some 25 cities but they chose SAT because of the parish and a Marianist High School that they thought was best for their teen son. My son and him are now seniors and the best of friends.
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I am trying very hard not to be jealous of you! 😉
Sometimes I feel like we are living in the land of darkness. Yes, there are pockets of light, but it can be pretty hard to be a committed catholic up here. If it wasn’t for our families, I would consider moving somewhere more desireable. Thank goodness Stuebenville is not too far away. An oasis in this spiritual desert.
 
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