Who's responsible for the Bible?

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Dokimas

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Many of you will say the CC is responible and it ‘cannonized’ the NT in an the 4th century. Correct?​

watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

Question: why did those who gave us the Bible leave out the Apocrypha? Most of these writings had been around long before the NT. Why did it take the CC 1 or 1 1/2 centuries to get it correct? Help my misunderstanding, please.
 
With respect, St. Jerome included them. . .so there is no ‘leaving out’. And the canon was not done ‘at Trent’ 1000 years later; it was reaffirmed. Now that I have corrected your misunderstanding I will happily let you, Dokimas, as the ‘protestant’ and you, Hosh, as our “Jewish brother/sister”. . .duke it out. After all, Hosh, if we Catholics ‘left out some stuff’ then Dokimas and his/her crowd left out even more.

I’m sure you’ll find plenty to discuss. Enjoy!
 
With respect, St. Jerome included them. . .so there is no ‘leaving out’. And the canon was not done ‘at Trent’ 1000 years later; it was reaffirmed. Now that I have corrected your misunderstanding I will happily let you, Dokimas, as the ‘protestant’ and you, Hosh, as our “Jewish brother/sister”. . .duke it out. After all, Hosh, if we Catholics ‘left out some stuff’ then Dokimas and his/her crowd left out even more.

I’m sure you’ll find plenty to discuss. Enjoy!

Don’t just hit and run. What did you mean by ‘our crowd’?​

When did St Jerome include the Apocrypha?​

Why did those at Trent not include the Apocrypha?
 
Apocrypha and Deuterocanonicals are not one and the same, that’s why.

Deuterocanonical is a term first coined in 1566 by the theologian Sixtus of Siena, who had converted to Catholicism from Judaism, to describe scriptural texts of the Old Testament considered canonic by the Catholic Church, but which are not present in the Hebrew Bible, and which had been omitted by some early canon lists, especially in the East.[1][2][3] Their acceptance among early Christians was widespread, though not universal, and the Bible of the early Church always included, with varying degrees of recognition, the books now called deuterocanonical.[4] For the most part their canonicity seems not to have been doubted in the Church until it was challenged by the Jews after A.D. 100.[5] Regional councils in the West published official canons that included these books as early as the fourth and fifth centuries.[2]**** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books#cite_note-cathenOT-1)[6] The formal recognition of the Canon of the Bible, which included also these books, occurred in the Council of Florence[7] and was later confirmed by the Council of Trent[8].
The Catholic deuterocanonical scriptural texts are:
 
I’m no smarty pants on the subject but there are at least a few gospels that aren’t in the Christian bible, not to mention the Gnostic texts.
 
Right. Something might be called the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, but they were forgeries (the gnostic texts). Also quite theologically ‘sound’ works like the Didache were not themselves forgeries, but they weren’t inspired texts like the gospels of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and so on.
 
That’s very opinionated, At least I didn’t use the word “Redacted”. Shall we talk about the history of the Pentateuch?
 
That’s very opinionated, At least I didn’t use the word “Redacted”. Shall we talk about the history of the Pentateuch?
Yes, let’s talk about the Five Books of Moses. Many Jews claim the New Testament is fiction. There are many who have noted and question also these Books. What seems to be two seperate Creation stories in Genesis, as well as the problem of Moses recording his own death are to some theologians and scholars as folklore and Hebrew storytelling. So, it can go both ways I suppose. BTW, the bible was put together in the year 394 at the Council of Carthage. Christians would not have one if it were not for the Catholic church.
 
Original Language; Versions. From the Jewish Encyclopedia The Book of Judith

As most students of the book have recognized, it was originally written in Hebrew. The standard Greek version bears the unmistakable marks of a translation from this language. The idioms are those of classical Hebrew; and yet the dialect in which the book is composed is plainly a living one. The diction is fresh and vigorous, and not noticeably reminiscent of the canonical Old Testament.

The wide-spread popularity of the story is attested, as in the case of Tobit, by the existence of a number of separate recensions; these do not, however, diverge very widely from one another. Three Greek forms have been preserved: (1) the standard text, found in most manuscripts (including the principal uncials) and given in all the printed editions; in all probability the recension which most nearly represents the original form of the story; (2) a somewhat corrected and “improved” recension, represented by Codex 58 (Holmes and Parsons) and by the Old Latin and Syriac versions; and (3) a text closely related to the preceding, found in Codices 19 and 108. The Old Latin translation exists in several divergent forms. The Vulgate version was made by Jerome (according to his own testimony hastily and with considerable freedom) from an Aramaic text. It gives the narrative in a form which is both much abridged and plainly secondary

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=711&letter=J&search=judith#ixzz0ZbmA4HSh
 
Yes, let’s talk about the Five Books of Moses. Many Jews claim the New Testament is fiction. There are many who have noted and question also these Books. What seems to be two seperate Creation stories in Genesis, as well as the problem of Moses recording his own death are to some theologians and scholars as folklore and Hebrew storytelling. So, it can go both ways I suppose. BTW, the bible was put together in the year 394 at the Council of Carthage. Christians would not have one if it were not for the Catholic church.
You wont get that from me. There was almost certainly a historical Jesus. For Moses: you have 2 pieces of highly circumstancial evidence to support some form of his existence. Freud pointed out in “Moses and Monotheism” that Akhenaten (a Pharaoh that during his reign made a form of monotheism that state sponsored religion of Egypt[it may have existed before him]) lived during the same time frame as Moses. There is also genetic evidence that may show many Kohanim have a common ancestor that lived during that time en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron. Personally I hold all religious texts as written by man detailing his relationship with God.
 
Popularity Among Christians. TThe l website that you have a link to has so many obvious lies that it cannot be trusted for any information.Any scholar worth their salt knows about the Hebrew texts of the Deuterocanonical books. If you don’t trust a Catholic site Use the Jewish encclopedia were they have intergity enough to tell the truth.

The Book of Ecclesiasticus has been honored still more highly among the Christians, being cited in the Epistle of James (Edersheim, in Wace, “Apocrypha,” p. 21), the Didache (iv. 5), and the Epistle of Barnabas (xix. 9), while Clement of Alexandria and Origen quote from it repeatedly, as from a γραφή, or holy book. In the Western Church, Cyprian frequently appeals to it in his “Testimonia,” as does Ambrose in the greater number of his writings. In like manner the Catalogue of Cheltenham, Damasus I., the Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), Pope Innocent I., the second Council of Carthage (419), and Augustine all regard it as a canonical book. This is contrary, however, to the opinions of the Council of Laodicea, of Jerome, and of Rufinus of Aquileia, which authorities rank it among the ecclesiastical books. It was finally declared canonical by the Council of Trent; and the favor with which the Church has always regarded it has preserved it in its entirety.
Discovery of Hebrew Fragments.

Until recent years Ecclesiasticus was known only from the Greek and Syriac versions—the sources of all other translations—and from the Hebrew quotations already mentioned. At present the greater part of the original is known. In 1896 Agnes Smith Lewis and Margaret Dunlop Gibson brought from the East a sheet of parchment covered with comparatively antiquated Hebrew characters. At Cambridge this was shown to S. Schechter, who recognized in it Ecclus. (Sirach) xxxix. 15-xl. 7, and who published the decipherment, which was by no means easy. Almost simultaneously Sayce presented to the Bodleian Library, Oxford, a collection of fragments of Hebrew and Arabic manuscripts, among which Neubauer and Cowley found nine leaves of the same volume to which the Lewis-Gibson leaf had belonged, and following immediately after it. These manuscripts contain also some passages that are lacking in the translations, including a psalm fifteen lines in length inserted after li. 12.

Originality of the Hebrew Fragments.

Prof. S. Margoliouth, noticing the decadent character of the language, the number of rabbinisms, and the derivatives from the Arabic and Aramaic, regarded the Hebrew text as a reconstruction of the lost original on the basis of the Greek and Syriac versions, the variants representing different attempts at retranslation. The discovery of manuscript C, however, disproved this hypothesis, since this manuscript reproduces with exactness the greater part of the variants of B, even when they are obviously false, while the transcriber of this latter manuscript discharged his task with such scrupulous care that he even recorded variants which were meaningless. If, therefore, the difference between the text and the marginal glosses corresponds to the difference between the two translations, this only shows that there were two recensions of the original. It is clear, moreover, that these fragments are not the work of some medieval scholar, but are more or less perfect copies of the Hebrew text, as a single example will show. In xxxii. 22 the Hebrew version has . For the latter word the Syriac text substitutes (= “thy way”), which the context shows to be faulty, the reading being due to a confusion of with . The Greek version reads “thy children,” the meaning attributed to in several passages of the Bible. But had the Jewish scribe used the Greek version, he would never have found beneath τῶν τέκνων σου the Hebrew , the correctness of which is attested by the Syriac. There are numerous examples of a similar nature.
Although Margoliouth’s theory must be rejected as a whole, certain details indicate that both A and B are derived from a copy characterized by interpolations due to a retranslation from Syriac into Hebrew. In a number of passages the same verse is given in two distinct renderings, one of which usually corresponds to the Syriac, even when this text represents merely a faulty or biased translation of the original. These verses, moreover, in their conformity to the Syriac, become at times so meaningless that they can be explained only as incorrect translations from that language. Such suspicious passages are characterized by a comparatively modern style and language, by a commonplace phraseology, and by a break in the parallelism which is affected by Ecclesiasticus. It may therefore be safely concluded that these doublets are merely additions made to render the Syriac version more intelligible. The same statement holds true of certain textual emendations made by the glossarist. In this, however, there is nothing strange, since it is a well-known fact that the Jews of certain sections were familiar with Syriac, as is shown by the quotations made by Naḥmanides from the Wisdom of Solomon, from Judith, and from Bel and the Dragon, and also by the introduction of the Peshiṭta of Proverbs into the Targum of the Hagiographa.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=836&letter=S&search=sirach#ixzz0ZboBeWSS
 
You wont get that from me. There was almost certainly a historical Jesus. For Moses: you have 2 pieces of highly circumstancial evidence to support some form of his existence. Freud pointed out in “Moses and Monotheism” that Akhenaten (a Pharaoh that during his reign made a form of monotheism that state sponsored religion of Egypt[it may have existed before him]) lived during the same time frame as Moses. There is also genetic evidence that may show many Kohanim have a common ancestor that lived during that time en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron. Personally I hold all religious texts as written by man detailing his relationship with God.
Well, Jesus Christ to you is not the Messiah, correct? And it clearly states in Scripture the coming of the Messiah in all the books of the prophets, as well as the five books of Moses. In Isaiah, the “Suffering Servant” is Jesus Christ which so clearly states this. I to say the same evidence pointing to Christ as Messiah, as you are saying to me about Moses. Personally I do believe in the five books of Moses because Jesus tells us in the New Testament that Moses wrote about Him.
 
Text and Original Language. For Tobit-it’s original language is Greek not Hebrew.

The text exists in Greek, Latin, Syriac, and Judæo-Aramaic, besides two late Hebrew translations. Of the Greek there are three versions: one given in the Vatican and Alexandrian manuscripts of the Septuagint; one in the Sinaitic; and one in Codices 44, 106, 107 of Holmes and Parsons. Of the Latin there are two recensions: the Old Latin, which agrees substantially with the Sinaitic Septuagint; and the Vulgate, made by Jerome from an Aramaic text, which often agrees with it, although it presents many divergencies. The Syriac follows the Vatican in general, although it is by no means lit-eral, while Codices 44, 106, 107 agree sometimes with this text, sometimes with that of the Sinaitic. The Aramaic text (published by Neubauer) also represents the Sinaitic recension in a general way, but is late, and can scarcely be considered the descendant of Jerome’s original. The Hebrew copies are late and of no authority. The two chief Greek recensions are the earliest sources for the text of Tobit, though suggestions may be gained from the Latin and the Syriac. Of the Greek forms the Vatican is the shortest (except in ch. iv.); its style is rough and often incorrect, and it has many errors, frequently clerical in nature. The Sinaitic text is diffuse, but frequently gives the better readings. Both of them may depend on an earlier form which has been corrupted in the Vatican and expanded in the Sinaitic, although the question is a difficult one. Equally problematical is the determination of the original language of the book. The forms of the proper names, and such an expression as χάριν καὶ μορφήν (i. 13), which suggests (Esth. ii. 17), may be held to point to Hebrew, as may also the type of piety portrayed, although it must be noted that there is no mention in early times of a Hebrew text, which Jerome would doubtless have used had he known of its existence. The Sinaitic forms “Ather” for “Asur” (xiv. 4) and “Athoureias” for “Asureias” (xiv. 15), on the other hand, are Aramaic. The excellent Greek style of the Sinaitic may suggest a Greek original. In view of the conflicting character of the data, it is best to reserve opinion as to the original language; the text appears to have suffered a number of revisions and misreadings.

Time and Place.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=241&letter=T&search=tobit#ixzz0Zbr1CXNL
 
Origin. Book of Baruch

That the first part of the book was originally written in Hebrew is probable, both from the Hebraic character of the diction and from the fact that certain errors in the Greek are explicable as misunderstandings of Hebrew words; thus “manna” (i. 10) is a misreading of “cereal offering” (); “dead” (iii. 4) is error for “men” (); “to pay the penalty” (iii. 8), for “dismay” (perhaps , or —read ); and the enigmatical river “Sud” (i. 4) is possibly an erroneous writing of “Kebar” ( for )

Date and Authorship.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=331&letter=B&search=baruch#ixzz0ZbsUmOPy
 
Maccabees: The First Book of the Maccabees covers the period of forty years from the accession of Antiochus (175 B.C.) to the death of Simon the Maccabee (135 B.C.). Its contents are as follows: Ch. i. 1-9 is a brief historical introduction; i. 10-ii. 70 treats of the rise of the Maccabean revolt; iii. 1-ix. 22 is devoted to the Maccabean struggle under Judas; ix. 23-xii. 53, to the fortunes of Israel under Jonathan; xiii. 1-xvi. 24, to the administration of Simon. The events are followed with intense interest and sympathy. At times the enthusiasm of the writer rises to a high pitch and breaks out into poetry of a genuine Semitic character (comp. iii. 3-9). The style is simple, terse, restrained, and objective, modeled throughout on that of the historical books of the Old Testament. The fact that just proportions are observed in treating the different parts of the narrative proves the author to have been a writer of considerable skill. He dates all events in terms of the Seleucid era.

Original Language.

It is clear from the Semitic idioms which occur throughout the work that it was composed in a Semitic language (see, for example, ii. 40, iv. 2), and certain passages indicate with great clearness that the original language was Hebrew (see ii. 39, iii. 19). To this fact Origen and Jerome also bear testimony, though it is possible that the version or paraphrase known to them was Aramaic.
The Hebrew original seems not to have borne the name “Maccabees,” though it is not known what was its real designation. Eusebius (“Hist. Eccl.” vi. 25) quotes Origen as authority for the name Σαρβηθ Σαβαναι, a name which has been explained in many different ways. For some of these see Grimm (“Das Erste Buch der Makkabäer,” p. xvii.). Dalman (“Grammar,” p. 6), whom Torrey (Cheyne and Black, “Encyc. Bibl.”) follows, takes the name as a corruption of (= “Book of the Hasmoneans”). If this be the correct interpretation, an Aramaic translation of the book must have been made at an early time, and it was this translation which was known to Origen and Jerome—a view which does not seem improbable. Be this as it may, the Hebrew was translated very early into Greek, and the Greek only has survived. The Greek version seems to be a literal one, often preserving the Semitic, and sometimes even the Hebrew, idiom; but it is clear, and probably it is, on the whole, a satisfactory translation. It is transmitted in three uncial manuscripts of the Septuagint—the Codex Sinaiticus, the Codex Alexandrinus, and the Codex Venetus—as well as in several cursives

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=18&letter=M&search=maccabees#ixzz0ZbtImIOM
 
Maccabees. ii Greek original language.

Unlike I Maccabees, the book known as II Maccabees was written in Greek. For the history of the war it is of less value than I Maccabees, though some recent writers (in particular Niese) have maintained the opposite opinion. It adds, however, important particulars regarding the events that led up to the Maccabean revolt. Besides this, II Maccabees, written quite independently of I Maccabees, is a strong support of the general truth of the familiar story of the revolt, though II Maccabees is embellished with angelical and miraculous ornament foreign to the first book. Its style is rhetorical, its purpose didactic. It emanated from Alexandria and was addressed to the Greek-speaking Jews of the Diaspora. It was designed to impress on them the unity of Judaism, the importance of Jerusalem as the center of religious life, and the duty of observing the two feasts of Ḥanukkah and Nicanor’s Day (nullsee Nicanor). That the book has a Pharisaic color is undoubted, but not in the sense of being a partizan pamphlet in reply to I Maccabees, which, indeed, the author of II Maccabees most probably did not know. Moreover, II Maccabees takes no account of Mattathias, nor, indeed, of any of the band of heroes except Judas; and this is not easily forced into evidence of Pharisaic partizanship. On the other hand, in II Macc. xiv. 6 Judas is represented as the leader of the Hasidtæans, who have many points in common with the Pharisees, and from whom the Hasmoneans were soon alienated.

Of specifically non-Sadducean doctrines, II Maccabees has a very clear expression of belief in the resurrection. Death is a “short pain that bringeth everlasting life” (II Macc. vii. 36; comp. other passages in the same chapter and xiv. 46). Judas is represented (II Macc. xii. 43 et seq.) as making offerings for the dead because “he took thought of the resurrection.” The reference to such offerings is, however, without parallel in Jewish literature, and nothing is otherwise known of such offerings being made at the Temple in Jerusalem (see Israel Lévi, “La Commemoration des Ames dans le Judaïsime,” in “R. E. J.” xxix. 48).

The book is usually held to belong to the latter part of the first century B.C.; Jason (of whose work it purports to be an epitome) wrote at least a century earlier. Niese places II Maccabees at the date 125-124 B.C., thus regarding it as older than, as well as superior to, I Maccabees. In this preference of the second to the first book, Niese stands practically alone, but he has done great service in vindicating the importance and value of the former (comp. also Sluys, “De Maccabæorum Libris I et II Quæstiones,” Amsterdam, 1904). It remains to add that the authenticity of the letters prefixed to II Maccabees has been fiercely assailed. Yet it is coming to be recognized that the letters have a clear bearing on the design of the book, as explained above, and it is quite conceivable, though very improbable, that they were part of the original work of Jason. On these letters see, besides earlier literature, Herkenne, “Die Briefe zu Beginn des Zweiten Makkabäerbuchs,” Freiburg, 1904.

One point remains. The martyrdoms described in II Maccabees, especially of the mother and her seven sons, have given the book undying value as an inspiration and encouragement to the faithful of all ages and creeds. As will be seen below (in connection with IV Maccabees), this feature of the Maccabean heroism made a special appeal to the Christianity of the first four centuries. “The figure of the martyr, as the Church knows it, dates from the persecution of Antiochus; all subsequent martyrologies derive from the Jewish books which recorded the sufferings of those who in that day were strong and did exploits” (E. Bevan, “House of Seleucus,” 1902, ii. 175).

III Maccabees.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=18&letter=M&search=maccabees#ixzz0ZbuseZL0
 
Well, Jesus Christ to you is not the Messiah, correct? And it clearly states in Scripture the coming of the Messiah in all the books of the prophets, as well as the five books of Moses. In Isaiah, the “Suffering Servant” is Jesus Christ which so clearly states this. I to say the same evidence pointing to Christ as Messiah, as you are saying to me about Moses. Personally I do believe in the five books of Moses because Jesus tells us in the New Testament that Moses wrote about Him.
Correct, Jesus is not the Messiah to me, but as I alluded to I also don’t hold the Tanakh as the world of God. Even if I did, a Orthodox or Conservative Rabbi would say that he didn’t fulfill the prophecies. I tend to think about the Messiah more as a concept than an actual person that will come. For me its closely related to Tikkun Olam (repair of the world). I was browsing the Judaica section one day and I saw a book titled “There Is No Messiah and You’re It”, I didn’t read it, but I strongly identify with its title.
 
Yes, let’s talk about the Five Books of Moses. Many Jews claim the New Testament is fiction. There are many who have noted and question also these Books. What seems to be two seperate Creation stories in Genesis, as well as the problem of Moses recording his own death are to some theologians and scholars as folklore and Hebrew storytelling. So, it can go both ways I suppose. BTW, the bible was put together in the year 394 at the Council of Carthage. Christians would not have one if it were not for the Catholic church.

Are you attacking the first book of you Bible?​

You make me shake my head when you say there would be no Bible without the CC.?.? Wow. I guess your church is more important than the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the rocks would cry out if people did not worship Him. (I’m trying to remember off the top of my head.)​

BTW, only one creation story if you really read carefully. BTW, I’ve been told it is not uncommon for someone else to write the ending to an autobiography like someone probably did for Moses.
 
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