Who's to be Left Behind?

[Mannyfit75]

2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.

(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.

(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!

 

[NotWorthy]

Non-believers. Those whom don’t confess Christ as the Saviour and then lead there life’s according;y.

How do you correlate that with the parable in the OP? It looks like non-believers are taken first, leaving the wheat behind in the field. In teaching on the Rapture, some people quote quotes on Noah and also Sodom and Gomorra. But in both of those scenario’s the wicked are taken away, while the righteous are left behind.

 

[NotWorthy]

BUNK!
Epharaim the Syrian said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Incidentally, I believe this is the only reference to something like the Rapture in early Christian writings. It was never expanded upon by any other writers. The Justin Martyr quote, I think, was not dealing with the teaching that evolved into the Rapture.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Incidentally, I believe this is the only reference to something like the Rapture in early Christian writings. It was never expanded upon by any other writers. The Justin Martyr quote, I think, was not dealing with the teaching that evolved into the Rapture.

I’ve more NW, I’ll see what I can come up with, for your reading pleasure.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I’ve more NW, I’ll see what I can come up with, for your reading pleasure.

The Epistle of Barnabas
“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation thus: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’ Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, ‘Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.’ Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming again, shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.” - The Epistle of Barnabas (15)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Commodianus
Commodianus is another church father who disagreed with the eschatology of Roman Catholicism:
“From heaven will descend the city in the first resurrection; this is what we may tell of such a celestial fabric. We shall arise again to Him, who have been devoted to Him. And they shall be incorruptible, even already living without death. And neither will there be any grief nor any groaning in that city. They shall come also who overcame cruel martydom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years.” (Writings, 44)

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s my understanding there is to be a sequel to “The Left Behind” series, to be called “The Right Buttock.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

BUNK!
Epharaim the Syrian said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. Please tell me exactly what you are trying to prove through your use of the quotations from the ECF’s.

For my part, I was only trying to point out the historical roots of the current doctrine of the Rapture. For example, at www.reformed-theology.org, I found this passage:Since the pre-tribulation “rapture” theory is of such relatively recent origin, and is so different from all other doctrines held by Christians over a period of eighteen centuries, how and where did it originate, and how has it gained such apparent ascendancy in such a relatively short time?

To answer the first part of that question we need to go back in time to the year 1830 and in space to Scotland and a town in western Scotland known as Port Glasgow. There, in the spring of 1830, a religious furore developed about the Macdonald family, who were said to have worked miracles of healing and to be both speaking in “tongues” and interpreting the “tongues.” The occurrences at the Macdonald home are recorded in a very interesting and readable book by Dave MacPherson entitled “The Incredible Cover-up”, subtitled "The True Story on the Pre-Trib Rapture."1 MacPherson quotes at length from a book written in 1861 by the Rev. Robert Norton (1807-1883), a British physician and clergyman, entitled “The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets: In the Catholic Apostolic Church.” Norton, a member of the Catholic Apostolic Church and in full sympathy with the events he recorded, related how Margaret Macdonald, in the spring of 1830, had expressed her belief, which resulted from her study of the scriptures, that Christians would be “raptured” or “translated” from the earth prior to the “tribulation.” Norton emphasized that Margaret’s pronouncement was the first time anyone had distinguished two stages in the Second Coming of Christ — "for here we first see the distinction between that final stage of the Lord’s coming, when every eye shall see Him, and his prior appearing in glory to them that look for him."2
You will note, of course, that the Catholic Apostolic Church is NOT related to the Catholic Church.

In light of this passage, what is the root of your disagreement with what I originally said?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

It’s my understanding there is to be a sequel to “The Left Behind” series, to be called “The Right Buttock.”

Now that is good old fashion word play humor.

 

[NotWorthy]

It’s my understanding there is to be a sequel to “The Left Behind” series, to be called “The Right Buttock.”

So, Basically, they’re just going to… (drum roll)… “Turn the other cheek”? (Ba-da-boom-ching).

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. Please tell me exactly what you are trying to prove through your use of the quotations from the ECF’s.

?

sorry Randy I was originally responding to someone whom claimed the theology behind the rapture was a 19th century fabrication… and as you and I know 1 comment can change the complexity of a thread.
Peace my friend,
Simon

 

[vern_humphrey]

So, Basically, they’re just going to… (drum roll)… “Turn the other cheek”? (Ba-da-boom-ching).

Thereby demonstrating the scriptural basis for the whole idea.

 

[Elzee]

It’s my understanding there is to be a sequel to “The Left Behind” series, to be called “The Right Buttock.”

I cackled out loud on that one.

 

[Randy_Carson]

sorry Randy I was originally responding to someone whom claimed the theology behind the rapture was a 19th century fabrication… and as you and I know 1 comment can change the complexity of a thread.
Peace my friend,
Simon

No problem, but what about the passage I quoted concerning the Scottish gentleman from the 1830’s?
Was this just a new variation of the older doctrine?

 

[Redbandito]

I’m confused then by this scripture…
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

The word “rapture” comes from Paul’s “caught up” remark in verse 17. The words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means “to carry off,” “snatch up,” or “grasp hastily.” The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”

What’s to be confused about? In Christ’s Second Coming, His Kindgom will be caught up with Him to come in judgment. Notice that the verse you presented is not discussing some secret event apart from the Second Coming but rather, “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” In other words, when we say that the Church rejects the “rapture,” we are actually saying the Church rejects a pre-millenial, pre-tribulational rapture. The Church does not reject this verse, or the teaching that at Christ’s Second Coming, His people will be “caught up” with Him. However, like this verse, the Church does not distinguish between the “rapture” and the Second Coming. They are one and the same event.

Remember, when Christ arrived on “Palm Sunday,” his people lined the streets outside of the town to welcome Him home. This tradition of greeting the king outside of town is what we see with Christ’s people accompanying Him in the sky on His way to come in judgment. The important thing to note here is that while the word for “rapture” is used here, this verse in no way supports a theology of a “pre-mil, pre-trib” rapture. Hope that clears up the confusion.

 

[Redbandito]

And this one…
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

This verse clearly describes the Second Coming. So, if you are referring to the Rapture as modern dispensationalists do, this verse does not help you. If you are saying that we will all be caught up in the Second Coming, I agree.

 

[Redbandito]

“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44).
The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

What are you talking about here? Nobody knows the time when Christ will return. Even CHRIST said nobody but the Father knows. The point of this verse is to tell us to be prepared, because the 2nd Coming will catch many off guard, much like the parable of the servant who was caught sleeping when his master returned home.

 

[Redbandito]

Furthermore…
Justin Martyr
“I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” - Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 80)

Notice that their is no teaching of a rapture in this quote. Justin Martyr believed in a literal millenium, as did several other Church Fathers. However, none of them believed that there would be some secret Rapture prior to this that would allow Christians to escape tribulation and suffering, which is contrary to our Gospel.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“The Rapture” isn’t scriptural, and no amount of scratching aorund looking for proof texts can make it so. It dates from the 19th Century, based on a bad translation of the Bible.

This doctrine is a form of Millenarianism, which is condemned by the Church as a heresy:

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism

(My emphasis.)

 

[Redbandito]

How do you correlate that with the parable in the OP? It looks like non-believers are taken first, leaving the wheat behind in the field. In teaching on the Rapture, some people quote quotes on Noah and also Sodom and Gomorra. But in both of those scenario’s the wicked are taken away, while the righteous are left behind.

Also, this quote was part of fragments. Furthermore, scholars are not even certain that the authorship are correct.

What I also find interesting is the ganking of Church Fathers as seen here. Martin, if you are going to use the Church Fathers as an authority, you need to do so consistently, and not just when you think it will support your argument.