Who's victimizing whom in Mideast?

[2shelbys]

Those who stayed mostly not only retained their property, but were granted Israeli citizenship!

This is not true. Anyone who is not Jewish or who does not at least have a Jewish parent or Grandparent has no chance at all of gaining Israeli citizenship. They may be granted some of the rights that citizens enjoy, but not citizenship.

The Liberty incident was indeed an example of Israeli self-interest placed above basic human decency. I worked in high school with a guy whose father was a crewman and is in a wheelchair as a result to this day. I know a bit about this, and the above post goes WAY beyond the facts. Yes, the Israeli government had good reason to fear that American actions might DELAY the war just long enough to eliminate the tactical surprises the Israelis had prepared. They did not believe that there was adequate political will in America to PREVENT a war, just delay it long enough to make it total genocide for the Jews. QUOTE]

I can not believe you are trying to justify an Israeli attack on men and material from the country that is not only an allied country, but the country that single-handedly kept Israel in existance.

they probably had about as much moral justification to attack the Liberty as we did to nuke Nagasaki.

Amazing. Trying to blind the intelligence eyes of an ally by attacking their men is the same as ending the most destructive war in history before another MAJOR campaign causes more massive death and destruction? I can not believe you could even think of comparing those two events.

the bottom line is that the Israelis would be exterminated totally without US military support

.

Not likely. Israel has the best trained and equipped military in the region and unknown to most of the world, Israel does have nuclear weapons in their arsenal.

 

[2shelbys]

gilliam:

Because Rome took the land from the Jews, the Byzantines from the Romans, the Arabs from the Byzantines, the Christians from the Arabs, and then the Arabs (led by a Kurd) from the Christians.

Believe it or not, Arabs are not natives of Judea.

So what? Using that logic, the United States does not exist and the Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, and other former nations still do.

 

[2shelbys]

Stu:

You stated:

That isn’t true.

What isn’t true?

 

[gilliam]

2shelbys:

This is not true. Anyone who is not Jewish or who does not at least have a Jewish parent or Grandparent has no chance at all of gaining Israeli citizenship. They may be granted some of the rights that citizens enjoy, but not citizenship.

Of its 6.3 million citizens, over one million, constituting nearly 20 percent of Israel’s population, are not Jewish. Almost all are Arab Israelis, mainly residents from before the establishment of the State of Israel or their descendants. Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

Religions:

Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003)

Languages:

Hebrew (official), Arabic used officially for Arab minority, English most commonly used foreign language

reference: cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Interesting… compairs a lot better than, say Saudi Arabia

 

[Stu]

2shelbys:

What isn’t true?

Don’t be so obtuse. Your statement isn’t true.

Once again.

It is amazing to me how few people are aware ( I know that you are aware) of the fact that there was no Israel before the U.N. created one in 1947

While it had been disbanded, there was at one time before the UN “created” it in 1947 a state of Israel in that part of the world. While you may not agree with the circumstances of its rebirth, it’s not like the country was created from scratch and placed in Alaska or something. The Jewish people arguably have a claim on that land and managed to regain it. Goes part and parcel with the entire history of the Jews in my opinion.

In answer to the previous post, I will admit that American Indians have a claim of sorts on the United States. Once again, while I don’t support the US going away for a new “Indian” country it’s not like the claim doesn’t have a logic trail to follow. But at this point in time, they aren’t really in a position to make such a thing happen. The Jewish people however were in such a position.

 

[gilliam]

2shelbys:

So what? Using that logic, the United States does not exist and the Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, and other former nations still do.

No the US exists, just like the Arabs did control the land of Judea at one time. But that doesn’t negate the claim the Jews have on Judea, just like the US existing doesn’t negate any claim the native Americans may have on the land of the US.

But I was correcting your statement that there was no Israel before 1947, for there certainly was.

 

[manualman]

2shelbys:

This is not true. Anyone who is not Jewish or who does not at least have a Jewish parent or Grandparent has no chance at all of gaining Israeli citizenship. They may be granted some of the rights that citizens enjoy, but not citizenship.

The Liberty incident was indeed an example of Israeli self-interest placed above basic human decency. I worked in high school with a guy whose father was a crewman and is in a wheelchair as a result to this day. I know a bit about this, and the above post goes WAY beyond the facts. Yes, the Israeli government had good reason to fear that American actions might DELAY the war just long enough to eliminate the tactical surprises the Israelis had prepared. They did not believe that there was adequate political will in America to PREVENT a war, just delay it long enough to make it total genocide for the Jews. QUOTE]

I can not believe you are trying to justify an Israeli attack on men and material from the country that is not only an allied country, but the country that single-handedly kept Israel in existance.

Amazing. Trying to blind the intelligence eyes of an ally by attacking their men is the same as ending the most destructive war in history before another MAJOR campaign causes more massive death and destruction? I can not believe you could even think of comparing those two events.

.

Not likely. Israel has the best trained and equipped military in the region and unknown to most of the world, Israel does have nuclear weapons in their arsenal.

Read up more. The policy you quote is TODAY’S. But at the Genesis of modern Israel when the UN Partition ended, Israel assured native Palestinians that if they did not fight against the new nations and remained peacefully in their homes, they would keep their land and become citizens. As gilliam noted, this promise was KEPT. Those Palestinians who migrated en masse believing the promises of Haj Amin, Egypt, Jordan, etc. that the Arab Legion would shortly swoop in and slaughter the Zionist pigs and all their sympathizers were denied the right to return after the war.

As to Nagasaki, few historians believe it necessary. Hiroshima is well worth debating but surely anyone can see that the need to nuke Nagasaki was far less critical to the survival of the USA then the brewing battle with numerically superior Egypt was to Israel.

I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Israel had nukes at the time the Liberty was attacked. Probably they do have them today. We’ll find out if/when irresponsible isolationists succeed in putting them in a situation where they must choose to nuke an invading enemy or die in Holocaust II : The Sequel.

Here’s a fun question. See my new thread: You’re the new leader of Isreal! Now what?

 

[gilliam]

manualman:

As to Nagasaki, few historians believe it necessary. Hiroshima is well worth debating but surely anyone can see that the need to nuke Nagasaki was far less critical to the survival of the USA then the brewing battle with numerically superior Egypt was to Israel.

The pilot of the Enola Gay revield before he died that there was a 3rd bomb. It was being transported to the South Pacific when Japan surrendered. If Japan had not surrendered, it would have been dropped.

 

[2shelbys]

Don’t be so obtuse. Your statement isn’t true.

Who was being obtuse? You quoted two statements and put a comment under only one of them. It was confusing.

While it had been disbanded, there was at one time before the UN “created” it in 1947 a state of Israel in that part of the world. While you may not agree with the circumstances of its rebirth, it’s not like the country was created from scratch and placed in Alaska or something. The Jewish people arguably have a claim on that land

“Having a claim” is one thing. Getting a foreign body to kick people off of their land and give it to you when you have done nothing yourselves to regain it is entirely another. Should the U.N. restore the entire world to it’s former appearance? What time period would be the correct one to use?

Anyway, the whole point of bringing this up wasn’t to challenge Israel’s right to be there but to remind everyone that the Palestinians have every right to be furious about the situation just as you say the Jews did when they lost it, and just as the American Indians do.

 

[2shelbys]

As to Nagasaki, few historians believe it necessary.

Not true, it is still hotly debated.

Hiroshima is well worth debating but surely anyone can see that the need to nuke Nagasaki was far less critical to the survival of the USA then the brewing battle with numerically superior Egypt was to Israel.

Not when you take into consideration some of the weapons Japan was working on with help from Germany. Germany’s technical superiority to essentially every other nation is well established but one of the little-known aspects of WWII was just how advanced some of Japan’s weapons projects were at the end. They had a chemical and biological weapons program that was un-paralleled and were close to having a delivery system to strike the west coast of the United States.

I find it HIGHLY unlikely that Israel had nukes at the time the Liberty was attacked. Probably they do have them today.

You are right about that. They did not have them back then but it wasn’t long afterward.

 

[Franze]

The chapter USS LIberty is one of the most rare things that I have seen, why Israel made that? I don´t understand.
Someone has said that before 1947 Israel didn´t exist but Palestine didn´t exist never, and they were able to reach the independence asking for their arabic brothers Jordan and Egypt because from 1948-1967 there were from these countries.
And the answer of the question thread, clearly, the christians, becasue they had to emigrate from Middle East to survive, the guilties are islamic countries and states that want “pure” countries, the same that Spain made five centuries ago and now, even is criticised, these countries are doing it now, and we are indifferent. Greetings

 

[2shelbys]

Palestine didn´t exist never

Palestine’s history goes back to the third millennium B.C. The Hebrews were not in Palestine until the 14th Century B.C. when they came as invaders from Mesopotamia. The Philistines arrived in Palestine in this same period. The Israelites did not occupy Jerusalem until 1000 B.C. when David defeated the Philistines, who had driven out the Canaanites (the earliest known inhabtants of Palestine) in 1125 B.C. To say that the Jewish people have any more of a claim to this land than others who have lived there, both before and after the Jewish people arrived, has no foundation in law and is the only instance in history where a long-defunct state has been re-created out of nothing.

 

[gilliam]

2shelbys:

Palestine’s history goes back to the third millennium B.C. The Hebrews were not in Palestine until the 14th Century B.C. when they came as invaders from Mesopotamia. The Philistines arrived in Palestine in this same period. The Israelites did not occupy Jerusalem until 1000 B.C. when David defeated the Philistines, who had driven out the Canaanites (the earliest known inhabtants of Palestine) in 1125 B.C. To say that the Jewish people have any more of a claim to this land than others who have lived there, both before and after the Jewish people arrived, has no foundation in law and is the only instance in history where a long-defunct state has been re-created out of nothing.

Why call it Palestine instead of Judea or Philistine or Canaan? I don’t see where the name comes in since the Palestinians were not involved.

 

[vern_humphrey]

gilliam:

Why call it Palestine instead of Judea or Philistine or Canaan? I don’t see where the name comes in since the Palestinians were not involved.

The semetic pronunciation is “Philistine.” The Roman pronunciation was “Palestinia.” We Anglicize the traditional Roman pronunciation to get “Palestine.”

 

[gilliam]

vern humphrey:

The semetic pronunciation is “Philistine.” The Roman pronunciation was “Palestinia.” We Anglicize the traditional Roman pronunciation to get “Palestine.”

Thanks, Vern. I do remember reading that before.

 

[mike182d]

Bobby A. Greene:

Personally I think the United States should take active measures to reinstate Mesopotamia or even Rome and a few other countries found in the Old Testament, not just Israel.

I think reinstating Rome is a grand idea!

 

[2shelbys]

gilliam:

Why call it Palestine instead of Judea or Philistine or Canaan? I don’t see where the name comes in since the Palestinians were not involved.

Vern is absolutely right about the name.

How can you say the Palestinians were not involved in their own history? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. They are the descendants of past inhabitants of the land just as the Jews are. In fact, the name “Palestinian” would be applicable to anyone descended from the Canaanites, Philistines, Jewish, or any other inhabitants of Palestine.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

thestickman:

Lemme see. Regarding the Liberty issue…a horrible incident, to be sure–however, anyone got a link to validate the assertion Israel started the Israel-Arab war.

Has Israel been perfect since it’s been allowed back into existence? Nope. However, to my understanding, excluding the fledgling democracy in Iraq, Israel is the only representitive government in the middle east. And, as I understand things, any Arab is permitted to live safely and freely in Israel as long as they pay taxes like any other citizen. Hmmm…if this is true, why are so many in this forum and elsewhere against Israel or at best, indifferent?

Maybe if they started sawing off heads while praising “Allah” someone might start making excuses for them?

If Israel can make itself a superpower without all the monetary and military support from the USA, then more power to Israel.

But Israel constantly bites the hand that feeds it by the unprovoked attack on the USS LIBERTY while maintaining the pretense of friendship with the U.S., and constantly spying on this country as if we were some sort of enemy instead of a much valued ally - what gives with Israel?

The very fact that a supposed ally, Israel, is directly responsible for the unecessary deaths of American citizens on the LIBERTY has alienated me towards the Israeli cause, whatever that might be. I now do not want a cent of my taxpayers money to go to Israel for any reason; Israel can become a superpower without my tax support, and the best of luck to her.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

mike182d:

I think reinstating Rome is a grand idea!

S.P.Q.R. all the way! Roman power! Vote for Bobby of the Roman party! Togas for everybody! Make Latin the official languae of the U.S.R.!

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

gilliam:

The pilot of the Enola Gay revield before he died that there was a 3rd bomb. It was being transported to the South Pacific when Japan surrendered. If Japan had not surrendered, it would have been dropped.

Wasn’t that the bomb being carried by the USS INDIANAPOLIS?