Whose Keys are These?

[Barbkw]

St Peter’s …was equal with all the Apostles.
But he (Kepha) was not supreme leader. And he did not set the stage for a supreme pontiff.

Peter held an office, which Jesus’ instituted and directed Peter to hold.

God the Father, specifically selected Simon Peter to be the first to hold the office in the New Covenant. Moses was the first to hold it, in the Old Covenant.

Jesus said, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” “You are rock and upon this rock I will build My Church…”

 

[Mickey]

One of the things I wonder about is how much the two churches are still influenced by the ancient history of the Roman empire. To a some extent I think that how the Churches developed and consequently how they view things, even today, are are more or less a tied to the empire.
Not theologically, so much as governmentally. The East tended to shepherd along side of the Emperor and because the Empire in the East lasted much longer than in the west, this relationship took hold deeply. It may also be (and I don’t know this for sure) that because the seat of Empire moved East, the Patriarch(s) of Constantinople felt that his See should be seen as holding a primacy. Like I say - that is pure speculation on my part.
The relatively early collapse of the Western Empire caused a much different pattern to develop. The collapse and subsequent breakdown of civilization caused, even forced, the Pope to take on a much more direct leadership, thus in a sense, “combining” the office of Patriarch and Emperor.

I don’t know this of course. My understanding of the histories is quite limited. But from my humble understanding, these differences in thought and development, along with some unfortunate personality clashes, may be part of what led to misunderstandings and ultimately schism…

Indeed, I think that your understanding about much of this is accurate. There were always differences between East and West—but disagreements were not deep enough to cause lasting schism. Much of the time East and West worked together to battle heresies. Sometimes the West bailed out the East…and vice versa. St Hillary of Poitiers is one of my favorites. He was an Early Church Father from the West, who had the mind of the East! He was a champion defender against the dreaded Arian heresy.

But of course the Filioque came along and caused a damaging rift. The sack of Constantinople caused the loss of mutual trust. And then came the biggee----Pope Pius IX and the doctrine of papal infallibility/supremacy in the 19th century which had been pushed by the ultramontanists for many years.

Sadly, I do not think there will reunion in my lifetime. But I pray that it may happen without compromise. It will happen when God wants it to happen. Thy Will be done!

Mickey

 

[Mickey]

Peter held an office,

All the Apostles were chosen.

God the Father, specifically selected Simon Peter to be the first to hold the office in the New Covenant.

God the Father does not discriminate.

Jesus said, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The power to bind and loose was given to all of them. That is why so many of the Fathers tell us that the keys are connected to this power.

“You are rock and upon this rock I will build My Church…”

Most of the Fathers say that “the rock” is St Peter’s confession. Others say that it is in reference to Christ. But that is yet another thread.

1 Cor 10:4
And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

(Rev. 21:14)
“….and the wall of the city with its twelve foundations, upon which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb…”

 

[qOcOp]

I’ve been having a discussion with a friend reference the significance of the “keys” in Matthew 16:19 ~ “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall release on earth shall be released, even in heaven.”” In conjunction with Isaiah 22:22 “And I will place the key of the house of David upon his shoulder. And when he opens, no one will close. And when he closes, no one will open.”

My view of the “keys” is they denote authority and were given to Peter as the earthly representative to watch over God’s kingdom on earth just as in the Old Testament. My friend was saying in this passage Jesus is giving the “keys” to all his disciples after acknowledging Peter for his profession of faith. Does anyone have any other perspectives on this topic?

Hello,

One question I like to ask Christians that deny the existance of the Papacy is where in Scripture can they show me a time when God left His people/Church without an earthly Patriarch?

When has there ever been a time in the Sacred Scripture where God has changed the name of a person for any reason other than to make them Head of His People (Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter)?

Throughout the entire Old Testament their can be seen a long line of Patriarchs that have been instituted by God Himself with the mission of leading His Church and so it is only logical that we would see this office of Patriarch continue in the New Testament Church when Christ gives Simon/Peter the Keys.

It is clear that the Papacy is Scriptural and that the teaching that there is no earthly Patriarch appointed by God to lead His Church is the furthest thing from Scriptural one could possibly get.

The great thing about God is He has kept heretical and schismatic Churches from claiming possession of such a office as the Papacy. This is because God instituted the Papacy as an indentifying mark of His Authority and because there is only One True Church founded by God that could have this Authority, there can logically be only one Church (The Roman Catholic Church) that could claim to possess and profess its mark (the Papacy.) This has allowed all those who finally come to the truth an easy means of finding Gods True Church.

 

[Mickey]

One question I like to ask Christians that deny the existance of the Papacy is where in Scripture can they show me a time when God left His people/Church without an earthly Patriarch?

You have set up a strawman. The OP never said that his friend denied the existence of the papacy.

 

[Barbkw]

The power to bind and loose was given to all of them. That is why so many of the Fathers tell us that the keys are connected to this power.

Are you presuming that the gatekeeper position - who holds the “keys of heaven” and who controlls the “binding and loosening” pretains only to the forgiveness of sin (which Jesus breathed onto the Apostles in the Upper Room)?

 

[Mickey]

Are you presuming that the gatekeeper position - who holds the “keys of heaven” and who controlls the “binding and loosening” pretains only to the forgiveness of sin (which Jesus breathed onto the Apostles in the Upper Room)?

Barb, I have explained myself many times…we are going in circles now. I will re-post this quote from St Augustine. I believe he explains it better than myself.

And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whosesoever sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whosesoever sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20) doth bind and loosen. Let both the binding and the loosening be feared: the loosening, in order not to fall under this again; the binding, in order not to remain forever in this condition. Wherefore “by the passions of his own sins – says Wisdom – is each ensnared” (Prov 5:22); and except for Holy Church nowhere is it possible to receive the loosening.
St Augustine

 

[Barbkw]

Originally Posted by Barbkw
God the Father, specifically selected Simon Peter to be the first to hold the office in the New Covenant.

Originally Posted by Mickey
God the Father does not discriminate

Discriminate is a harsh way to describe Him, I’d say discerns attitude and directs.

Isaiah: Chapter 44

The Lord says, "Listen now, Israel, My servant, My chosen people, the descendants of Jacob. I am the Lord who created you; from the time you were born, I have helped you. Do not be afraid; you are My servant, My chosen people whom I love.

"I will give water to the thirsty land and make streams flow on the dry ground. I will pour out My spirit on your children and My blessing on your descendants. They will thrive like well-watered grass, like willows by streams of running water.

"One by one, people will say, "I am the Lord’s.’ They will come to join the people of Israel.

They each will mark the name of the Lord on their arms and call themselves one of God’s people."

 

[JRKH]

Indeed, I think that your understanding about much of this is accurate. There were always differences between East and West—but disagreements were not deep enough to cause lasting schism. Much of the time East and West worked together to battle heresies. Sometimes the West bailed out the East…and vice versa. St Hillary of Poitiers is one of my favorites. He was an Early Church Father from the West, who had the mind of the East! He was a champion defender against the dreaded Arian heresy.

Amen to this…In talking with Protestants about the bible canon, I often bring up that neither church, east or west has a 66 book canon. I’ve had them respond that the East has more books than the West…To which I reply, and yet this difference was not seen as sufficient to cause a split. (I use this in defence of the authority of the Church)

But of course the Filioque came along and caused a damaging rift. The sack of Constantinople caused the loss of mutual trust. And then came the biggee----Pope Pius IX and the doctrine of papal infallibility/supremacy in the 19th century which had been pushed by the ultramontanists for many years.

Yes - there were a number of things that brought about the current rift. What really needs to happen now is to a) forget the sins of the past and b) work for understanding and consensus in doctrinal issues.

Sadly, I do not think there will reunion in my lifetime. But I pray that it may happen without compromise. It will happen when God wants it to happen. Thy Will be done!

I agree - No “compromise”, rather pray for cnsensus which is what the Holy Father hopes for and why it will likely take much more time than I have on this earth. So I’ll take my prayers for re-unification to heaven with me…

Peace
James

 

[Mickey]

Amen to this…In talking with Protestants about the bible canon, I often bring up that neither church, east or west has a 66 book canon. I’ve had them respond that the East has more books than the West…To which I reply, and yet this difference was not seen as sufficient to cause a split. (I use this in defence of the authority of the Church)

Good one!

Yes - there were a number of things that brought about the current rift. What really needs to happen now is to a) forget the sins of the past and b) work for understanding and consensus in doctrinal issues.

Yes.

I have always liked this quote:

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.
[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology]***

So I’ll take my prayers for re-unification to heaven with me…

Me too…with the hope that I make it to heaven. I am daily trying to work out my salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Mickey]

Discriminate is a harsh way to describe Him, I’d say discerns attitude and directs.

I said He does not discriminate.

Discerns? He is all knowing. What does He need to discern?

Directs? We are given free-will to either accept His free gift of grace…or not.

 

[Barbkw]

Barb, I have explained myself many times…we are going in circles now.

Interesting, you chose at this point to say the conversation is “going around in circles”.

However, in your selection of St. Augustine’s quote, you’ve proven my point.

St. Augustine was ordained to his office as Bishop of Hippo by someone who sat in authority above him.

Whatever comments St. Augustine made - are either accepted or rejected in relationship to the authority above him, and to the higher authorities in the Church throughout the generations.

It’s the reason why papal authority is so important.

catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17).

As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals.

Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

 

[Barbkw]

I said He does not discriminate.

When God the Father selected out Israel; in your opinion, did He discriminate?

 

[Mickey]

However, in your selection of St. Augustine’s quote, you’ve proven my point.

I am pleased that we are in agreement.

St. Augustine was ordained to his office as Bishop of Hippo by someone who sat in authority above him.

Priests in the Orthodox Church are ordained to the bishopric by two or more bishops. I am not arguing against a hierarchy. I am saying that all bishops are treated equally.

Whatever comments St. Augustine made - are either accepted or rejected in relationship to the authority above him, and to the higher authorities in the Church throughout the generations.

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there was some type of Ecclesiatical police department who either approved or rejected anything that a particular Church Father had written. :nope:

 

[Mickey]

When God the Father selected out Israel; in your opinion, did He discriminate?

Are you giving human attributes and feelings to God the Father?

 

[Mickey]

Getting back on topic, I will post this one again also:

“He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church.”
The City of God, by St. Augustine

 

[Mickey]

And this:

“Driven from this line of defence you will appeal to the example of the clergy. … Far be it from me to censure the successors of the apostles, who with holy words consecrate the body of Christ, and who make us Christians. Having the keys of the kingdom of heaven, they judge men to some extent before the day of judgment, and guard the chastity of the bride of Christ. But, as I have before hinted, the case of monks is different from that of the clergy. The clergy feed Christ’s sheep; I as a monk am fed by them.”
St. Jerome

 

[Mickey]

”If you believe, that God has raised the whole building of his Church on Peter alone, what will you say of John, the son of the Thunder? What will you say of each of the Apostles? Will you venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter in particular, but shall prevail against the others? Are not the words, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, addressed to them all? Have not these words had their fulfillment in each one of the Apostles?"
**Origen

**

 

[Barbkw]

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there was some type of Ecclesiatical police department who either approved or rejected anything that a particular Church Father had written. :nope:

Cute, Ecclesiatical police department.

However, the Bishops did hold force against the heretics throughout the generations and they solidified the Canon. And today, the Popes have decided conclusively about contraception, abortion, euthanasia, women’s ordination, protection of marriage, chastity in same sex attraction, in vitro fertilization, etc.

 

[Mickey]

St Ambrose
He, then, who before was silent, to teach us that we ought not to repeat the words of the impious, this one, I say, when he heard, ‘But who do you say I am,’ immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter, who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather, before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation…Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter’s flesh, but of his faith, that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ But his confession of faith conquered hell. And this confession did not shut out one heresy, for, since the Church like a good ship is often buffeted by many waves, the foundation of the Church should prevail against all heresies (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1963), Saint Ambrose, Theological and Dogmatic Works, The Sacrament of the Incarnation of Our Lord IV.32-V.34, pp. 230-231).