Whose sins you forgive...John 20:22-23

[HailMary]

Hello:

What do non-Catholics do with the following verse?

John 20:22-23

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

And also, how would those apostles and disciples (and their successors) know what sins to forgive and retain if they were not first confessed?

just curious.

 

[Bishopite]

Hello:

What do non-Catholics do with the following verse?

John 20:22-23

And also, how would those apostles and disciples (and their successors) know what sins to forgive and retain if they were not first confessed?

just curious.

Being a former Protestant, I would have said the verses say with the Greek that Jesus is merely saying the Apostles are forgiving sins which have already been forgiven by God.

It’s really watering down the verse indeed.

 

[Ladybug42]

I have never known what to do with that verse. After having looked it up just now, it is interesting to note that 10 of the remaining 11 were present to receive this blessing. Thomas was not. I have no idea if this was to give the apostles the power to forgive, or the power to discern God’s forgiveness and pronounce it to others. But I am still not sure if there is a connection between this exchange and priests today. To me, if a priest abuses his position and refuses to forgive a sin that God has already forgiven (the repentance and penance are met, along with whatever other things might be required), then it does NOT mean that the sin is not forgiven, but rather that the priest has just committed a sin. confused

Another question: nonCatholics (such as myself) are not allowed the Sacrament of Reconciliation (is that what it is called?). So does that mean you believe that when we sin, we cannot be forgiven? Or is it that we would have to become Catholic for this to be the case? And if this is so, why would anyone want to put themselves in that position when they previously could go directly to God for forgiveness?

 

[havemercy]

Ignore it.

 

[mercygate]

I have never known what to do with that verse. After having looked it up just now, it is interesting to note that 10 of the remaining 11 were present to receive this blessing. Thomas was not. I have no idea if this was to give the apostles the power to forgive, or the power to discern God’s forgiveness and pronounce it to others. But I am still not sure if there is a connection between this exchange and priests today.

Yep. There is.

To me, if a priest abuses his position and refuses to forgive a sin that God has already forgiven (the repentance and penance are met, along with whatever other things might be required), then it does NOT mean that the sin is not forgiven, but rather that the priest has just committed a sin. confused

The repentance is enough. Penance is a feature of the Sacramaent. I cannot imagine this happening in real life. Priests generally give absolution even when they suspect the penitent is insincere, just because they would not want to risk such a thing.

Another question: nonCatholics (such as myself) are not allowed the Sacrament of Reconciliation (is that what it is called?). So does that mean you believe that when we sin, we cannot be forgiven? Or is it that we would have to become Catholic for this to be the case? And if this is so, why would anyone want to put themselves in that position when they previously could go directly to God for forgiveness?

Well, if you are not Catholic, then it’s between you and God whether you are forgiven. But once you figure out that Confession (Reconciliation, Penance - it goes by several names) is the ordinary means Christ ordained to grant absolution to his people, and you remain outside the Church and away from this sacrament by a concious decision to reject Our Lord’s plan for Christian life, then you’ve got something to think about, haven’t you?

One question you might want to ask is whether confession with a priest means that you are *not *going “directly to God.” As a convert, I can testify that there are definitely THREE people in that room, and one of them has the initials JC.

 

[mozart-250]

Another question: nonCatholics (such as myself) are not allowed the Sacrament of Reconciliation (is that what it is called?).

Really? I thought I remember reading C.S. Lewis regularly confessed his sins to a pries?

 

[ricmat]

Another question: nonCatholics (such as myself) are not allowed the Sacrament of Reconciliation (is that what it is called?). So does that mean you believe that when we sin, we cannot be forgiven? Or is it that we would have to become Catholic for this to be the case? And if this is so, why would anyone want to put themselves in that position when they previously could go directly to God for forgiveness?

The way I’ve heard this explained is that yes, you are forgiven directly by God, assuming you are truly repentant. But the Sacrament of reconciliation also conveys grace from God to the receipient, by virtue of the priest acting in a personal “physical” way (as did Jesus) with the sinner. In this case, “physical” means via voice and hearing. And there’s the added psychological benefit of actually hearing God, via the priest actually say the words, “your sins are forgiven.”

And generally grace is considered good, since it is a portion of God’s inner life that enables us to fight additional sins in the future

If the priest suspects that someone is not truly repentant, or they actually admit that they plan on doing the same sins as soon as they leave the confessional, then the priest would probably refuse absolution and tell the penitent to go think about it some more, and come back when they are truely repentant.

 

[happygal]

Hello:

What do non-Catholics do with the following verse?

John 20:22-23

And also, how would those apostles and disciples (and their successors) know what sins to forgive and retain if they were not first confessed?

just curious.

Well it goes by saying pray for your enemy, forgive them for all those hurts or wrong doing they have done upon you, make peace with them if we never forgive them then how would God ever forgive us!! Correct me if i’m wrong. We are to confess sins to others and pray for others

 

[Pjs2ejs]

The answer to your question is to come home to the Catholic Church. We really want you back. We miss you.

 

[Ladybug42]

Really? I thought I remember reading C.S. Lewis regularly confessed his sins to a pries?

C.S. Lewis was Anglican, not Catholic.

 

[Mannyfit75]

C.S. Lewis was Anglican, not Catholic.

Yes, he was Anglican. His books are good reading material.

 

[havemercy]

Really? I thought I remember reading C.S. Lewis regularly confessed his sins to a pries?

He confessed his sins to a Lutheran monk, actually. This wasn’t sacramental confession, but Lewis, like so many smart non-Catholics, saw the practicality and necessity of the verbal confession of ones sins, and the comfort that comes through the prayer and presence of another.

 

[colliric]

Yes, he was Anglican. His books are good reading material.

This is off topic but, His friend Tolkien was a devout Catholic wasn’t he? Wasn’t Tolkien of the ilk that believe Genesis 3:15 is mistranslated?

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is off topic but, His friend Tolkien was a devout Catholic wasn’t he? Wasn’t Tolkien of the ilk that believe Genesis 3:15 is mistranslated?

I don’t know. I never read Tolkien’s writings.

I think John 20:22-23 is addressed to Jesus’ apostles, and its there that Jesus gave them the power to forgive sins.

 

[Jennifer_G]

He confessed his sins to a Lutheran monk, actually. This wasn’t sacramental confession, but Lewis, like so many smart non-Catholics, saw the practicality and necessity of the verbal confession of ones sins, and the comfort that comes through the prayer and presence of another.

I never knew Lutherans had monks.

Our Lutheran hymnal does have something on private confessions, but I don’t think it’s even used. Some protestants would say that special graces (including signs, healing, etc.) were only given to the apostles so they could convert people and it died out with them.

We do have this in general confession though -

Almighty God in his mercy has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mercygate]

Really? I thought I remember reading C.S. Lewis regularly confessed his sins to a pries?

Lewis was Anglican. As a former Anglican, I too regularly made sacramental confessions. (For 18 years I made my confessions with the same priest, who was the Canon Pastor of the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York.

The theology of priesthood and the sacraments among High Churchmen is identical to Catholic theology on the subject.

I see in posts subsequent to your query on Lewis that someone has said he confessed to a Lutheran monk. I find that odd, and would like to know where that information came from.

In England there are several communities of Anglican monks and nuns – it would be far more likely that he confessed at an Anglican monastery.

 

[mercygate]

I never knew Lutherans had monks.

Our Lutheran hymnal does have something on private confessions, but I don’t think it’s even used. Some protestants would say that special graces (including signs, healing, etc.) were only given to the apostles so they could convert people and it died out with them.

We do have this in general confession though -

In the 1940s there was a movement afoot to reinstate this practice. Remember, it was not Luther who removed it. He was against doing away with it. But if you chuck your Holy Orders, you chuck the power of absolution.

The 20th Century attempt tried to base the power of absolution in the words of scripture – I don’t recall which words those were . . . Anyway, a few Lutherans still practice auricular confession. It’s good for you even if you can’t have the assurance of absolution.

Even Protestants understand the importance of one feature of confession, and that is the healing effect of opennes and honesty. The use of “accountability partners” is one way they handle this.

 

[deb1]

When I was Protestant I heard an explanation that said that although the apostles had the power to forgive sin, that power ended with the apostles. I don’t know how common this explanation is among Protestants, though

 

[mercygate]

When I was Protestant I heard an explanation that said that although the apostles had the power to forgive sin, that power ended with the apostles. I don’t know how common this explanation is among Protestants, though

Very common. We often hear that the Apostles received gifts that were not passed on after them. It doesn’t make sense, since they were entrusted to make disciples, teach, and baptize unto the end of the age – and since we’re still here, those powers must have persisted n their successors.

Nevertheless, that is the argument often mounted.

 

[mark_a]

Being a former Protestant, I would have said the verses say with the Greek that Jesus is merely saying the Apostles are forgiving sins which have already been forgiven by God.

It’s really watering down the verse indeed.

But how would that get you out of confessing even though it was after God forgave you?