Wht's your opinion

[PJM]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Dear friends in Christ,

What is meant by this verse? And to who might it apply?

Pat

 

[Publisher]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Dear friends in Christ,

What is meant by this verse? And to who might it apply?

Pat

The author of Matthew was expressing one of the beliefs of the early Christian community that “somehow” the death of Jesus of Nazareth effected a mystical change in the fabric of the universe whereby through his death creation was once again reconciled and the forgiveness of sins universal in scope.

 

[ignatius777]

The author of Matthew was expressing one of the beliefs of the early Christian community that “somehow” the death of Jesus of Nazareth effected a mystical change in the fabric of the universe whereby through his death creation was once again reconciled and the forgiveness of sins universal in scope.

I certainly agree with the “somehow” a change took place with the death of Jesus but if we are to take the posted verse as accurate it says, the blood of Jesus is poured out for “many” not “all” so the universality of this forgiveness is, I think, up for discussion.

 

[wmscott]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Dear friends in Christ,

What is meant by this verse? And to who might it apply?

Pat

Good question PJM, after thinking about it for a bit I came up with what I thought it meant. I was wrong in my assumptions, but I will let the thread mature a bit before I relay what I found. Peace.

 

[Publisher]

I certainly agree with the “somehow” a change took place with the death of Jesus but if we are to take the posted verse as accurate it says, the blood of Jesus is poured out for “many” not “all” so the universality of this forgiveness is, I think, up for discussion.

I would think that isolating a singular verse from the gospels does not a “doctrine” make…

1 John 2:2, “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also **for those of the whole world.” **1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son **to be the Savior of the world.” **

As a Friend, I reject the idea of a “limited” anything that separates humanity into those whom God “saves” and those whom God choses to “damn”.

The universal saving Light of Christ is available to ALL MEN.

 

[Vico]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Dear friends in Christ,

What is meant by this verse? And to who might it apply?

Pat

My opinion: It has a dual meaning (at least). The new covenent which brings salvation for all mankind, through the mystical shedding of blood, which is everlasting life. Christ through death destroys Death and Christ through the Eucharistic Mystery saves mankind.

Others:

Haydock Commentary (1859):

Ver. 28. This is my blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. The Greek text in St. Luke shews that the words shall be shed, or is shed, cannot, in construction, be referred to the blood of Christ shed on the cross, but to the cup, at the institution of the holy sacrament. *This *cup (says Luke xxii. 20,) *is the New Testament in my blood; which *cup[6] shall be shed, or is shed for you. St. Paul also saith: this cup is the New Testament in my blood. And if any one will needs insist upon the words, as related by St. Matthew and St. Mark, the sense is still the same; viz. that this cup was not wine, but the blood of Christ, by which the New Testament was confirmed, or alliance betwixt God and man.

— For many. St. Luke and St. Paul, instead of many, say for you. Both are joined in the canon of the mass. Euthymius says, for many, is the same as for all mankind. This new alliance was made with all, and the former with the Jews only. (Witham)

— As the Old Testament was dedicated with blood in these words: This is the blood of the Testament, (Hebrews ix. 20,) so here is the institution of the New Testament, in Christ’s blood, by these words: This is the blood of the New Testament, which God contracts with you, to communicate to you his grace and justice, by the merits of this blood, which shall be shed for you on the cross; and which is here mystically shed for many, for the remission of sins: for the Greek is in the present tense in all the three evangelists, and in St. Paul, 1 Corinthians xi, and the Latin Vulgate of St. Luke, xxii. 19. Hoc est corpus meum quod pro vobis datur: didomenon, klomenon ekchunomenon.

haydock1859.tripod.com/

New American Bible (1991), Commentary:

16 [27-28] Gave thanks: see the note on Matthew 15:36.

Gave it to them . . . all of you: cf Mark 14:23-24. In the Marcan sequence the disciples drink and then Jesus says the interpretative words. Matthew has changed this into a command to drink followed by those words.

My blood: see Lev 17:11 for the concept that the blood is “the seat of life” and that when placed on the altar it “makes atonement.”

Which will be shed: the present participle, “being shed” or “going to be shed,” is future in relation to the Last Supper.

On behalf of: Greek peri; see the note on Mark 14:24.

Many: see the note on Matthew 20:28.

For the forgiveness of sins: a Matthean addition. The same phrase occurs in Mark 1:4 in connection with John’s baptism but Matthew avoids it there (Matthew 3:11). He places it here probably because he wishes to emphasize that it is the sacrificial death of Jesus that brings forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 20:28

11 [28] Ransom: this noun, which occurs in the New Testament only here and in the Marcan parallel (Matthew 10:45), does not necessarily express the idea of liberation by payment of some price. The cognate verb is used frequently in the LXX of God’s liberating Israel from Egypt or from Babylonia after the Exile; see Exodus 6:6; 15:13; Psalm 77:16 (76 LXX); Isaiah 43:1; 44:22. The liberation brought by Jesus’ death will be for many; cf Isaiah 53:12.

Many does not mean that some are excluded, but is a Semitism designating the collectivity who benefit from the service of the one, and is equivalent to “all.” While there are few verbal contacts between this saying and the fourth Servant Song (Isaiah 52:13-53:12), the ideas of that passage are reflected here.

 

[ignatius777]

I would think that isolating a singular verse from the gospels does not a “doctrine” make…

1 John 2:2, “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also **for those of the whole world.” **1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son **to be the Savior of the world.” **

As a Friend, I reject the idea of a “limited” anything that separates humanity into those whom God “saves” and those whom God choses to “damn”.

The universal saving Light of Christ is available to ALL MEN.

I was answering a question about one singular verse, not making doctrine. Also I did not say that the saving power of Jesus death is not available to the “whole world” but not everyone is saved. Things can be available but never attained.

 

[ignatius777]

I would think that isolating a singular verse from the gospels does not a “doctrine” make…

1 John 2:2, “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also **for those of the whole world.” **1 John 4:14, “And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son **to be the Savior of the world.” **

As a Friend, I reject the idea of a “limited” anything that separates humanity into those whom God “saves” and those whom God choses to “damn”.

The universal saving Light of Christ is available to ALL MEN.

BTW you will still be left to reconcile the “many” in one verse with the “whole world” in another. They can apparently contradict one another unless there is some other way to view them in their entirety.

 

[Publisher]

I was answering a question about one singular verse, not making doctrine. Also I did not say that the saving power of Jesus death is not available to the “whole world” but not everyone is saved. Things can be available but never attained.

So are you claiming the English translation of “many” doesn’t mean “all”?

Since I am a universalist, we part company on the idea of “Things can be available but never attained.”

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…”

 

[ignatius777]

So are you claiming the English translation of “many” doesn’t mean “all”?

Since I am a universalist, we part company on the idea of “Things can be available but never attained.”

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…”

When has “many” been used in the same way as “all”? If you owned a vineyard and told one of your workers to pick all the grapes and when you returned and you asked him if all the grapes had been picked and he told you “many” you’d be satisfied that he did as you instructed? Really?

So everyone, "all’ are saved? If you believe many means all then yes you believe everyone is saved.

 

[Publisher]

When has “many” been used in the same way as “all”? If you owned a vineyard and told one of your workers to pick all the grapes and when you returned and you asked him if all the grapes had been picked and he told you “many” you’d be satisfied that he did as you instructed? Really?

So everyone, "all’ are saved? If you believe many means all then yes you believe everyone is saved.

Not “everyone is saved”…but one day God will reconcile His creation to Himself…“God is not willing that any should perhish but ALL should come to repentance.”…I believe in the Soverign will of God…“Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”…

I don’t know how it will be accomplished, but only that the work of God in Christ will one day place all things under His feet.

 

[ignatius777]

Not “everyone is saved”…but one day God will reconcile His creation to Himself…“God is not willing that any should perhish but ALL should come to repentance.”…I believe in the Soverign will of God…“Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”…

I don’t know how it will be accomplished, but only that the work of God in Christ will one day place all things under His feet.

So all and many can not be used interchangeably. I’d like all my children to grow up to be happy and successful and I have given them evrey opportunity to do so but whether or not they do is in large measure up to them.

 

[Publisher]

So all and many can not be used interchangeably. I’d like all my children to grow up to be happy and successful and I have given them evrey opportunity to do so but whether or not they do is in large measure up to them.

One “Day” ALL will be reconciled to God the Father.

 

[ignatius777]

One “Day” ALL will be reconciled to God the Father.

ok so you believe all menas many. Scripture as posted above says “many”. If many means all then fine. I tend to think if the writers meant all they would have said all because all is not the same as many, in my opinion. I would love an example of where many and all are used to mean the same thing.

 

[Barbkw]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

“For this is my blood of the NEW covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Jesus was establishing the second Godhead. God the Father and God the Son. Upon His Resurrection, He and God the Father sent the third Person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit.

Jewish covenant bonds with God (and within tribes) were liturgically sealed with blood.

The Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, the High Priest sacrificed a bull and a goat, laid his hands upon them, symbolizing the placement of sin (his, his families, the priesthood and all of Israel) upon the back of the animal being sacrificed.

By Jewish law, as handing down by God to Moses, was conducted on a certain day of each year. Israel fasted for a week, remembering their sins, and then collectively the High Priest performed the blood covenant sacrifice for the forgiveness of all of their sins.

The High Priest collected the blood of the sacrificed animal into a bowl, and with a cord around his body (to pull him out should he die while in the Holy of Holies) he sprinkled the blood on the Mercy Seat, that rests between the two golden angels on top of the Arc of the Covenant.

 

[Barbkw]

jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=46315

From the website: MyJewishLearning.com

“History of Yom Kippur”

"The biblical account of Yom Kippur describes a day dedicated to atonement and abstinence. Leviticus 23:27 tells us that on the 10th day of the month of Tishrei, “You should do no work throughout that day. For it is a Day of Atonement (“Yom Kippurim”) on which expiation is made on your behalf before the Lord your God. Indeed, any person who does not practice self-denial throughout that day shall be cut off from his people…”

"In addition to the abnegation alluded to above, we are also told in Leviticus that on this day the High Priest would perform sacred rites in order to achieve expiation of the people’s sins.

“These rites included a lottery to choose two goats–one to be consecrated to God and one to “Azazel.” While the exact meaning of the word Azazel is uncertain, the ritual required the High Priest to confess the sins of Israel on this Azazel-goat, and to set it free in the wilderness so that it “shall carry on it all their iniquities to an inaccessible region.” (Lev. 16:22) The goat consecrated to God was offered on the altar as a purification offering.”

“In rabbinic literature, Yom Kippur is given an additional name, Yom HaDin ( Day of Judgement). This solemn day is the culmination of the aseret y’mei teshuvah (10 days of repentance) following Rosh Hashanah.”

“To the rabbis, Rosh Hashanah marked the beginning of a spiritual trial for the souls of Israel, the 10 days of repentance could then be seen as a time for appeals, and Yom Kippur marked the climax–when the verdict was handed down. At this time God, the true judge, would decide the fate of all of Israel as individuals and as a community, and hopefully inscribe them into the Book of Life.”

“The rabbis follow through on the biblical theme of self-denial in their discussions of the daily pleasures from which one must abstain on Yom Kippur. Among them are eating, drinking, bathing and anointing oneself, wearing leather-soled shoes (at the time the most comfortable option), and abstaining from sexual relations. These limitations are debated at great length in the Talmudic tractate devoted to Yom Kippur, entitled Yoma (literally, “the Day”).”

“The shift in focus from the High Priest-centered ritual to the idea of a trial examining the sins of Israel is a perfect example of rabbinic ingenuity in the face of political turmoil. In a text from the midrashic collection Avot De-Rabbi Natan we learn a story of Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai walking with his colleague, Rabbi Joshua. Upon seeing the ruins of the second Temple, Rabbi Joshua said, “Woe to us, that the place which granted atonement lies in ruins!” Rabbi Yohanan replied, “Do not be distressed, there is another kind of atonement which is like it–and what is that? It is the doing of good deeds.” With the Temple in ruins, the rabbis developed a new, more portable agenda to allow for the expiation of sins far removed from the Temple cult.”

“While most of the holidays originating in the Bible have their logical place on the agricultural calendar, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur do not necessarily fit that mold. The rabbis tell us that the 10th of Tishrei was the day on which Moses completed and brought down the second set of commandments from Sinai, signifying that God had granted atonement for the sin of the Golden calf. This rabbinic interpretation lends historical significance to the otherwise unexplained placement of the holiday 10 days after Rosh Hashanah.”

“In The Jewish Way, Rabbi Irving Greenberg explains that the High Holidays–the period including Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the 10 days of repentance between them–concentrates a person’s mind on themes of mortality and the meaning of life. This period is a time to take stock and do Heshbon HaNefesh (an accounting of one’s life) and to take action by doing teshuvah (repenting from one’s sins). This is the crucial message that we take with us from the beginning to the end of Yom Kippur.”

MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive and interactive online Jewish learning resource, combines breadth of content and a multi-denominational perspective to make learning fun and easy. MyJewishLearning.com is a project of the Samuel Bronfman Foundation and the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation.

 

[Barbkw]

See also:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur

From the website, in part:

"Temple service:

The following summary of the Temple service is based on the traditional Jewish religious account described in Mishnah tractate Yoma, appearing in contemporary traditional Jewish prayerbooks for Yom Kippur, and studied as part of a traditional Jewish Yom Kippur worship service.[13]

While the Temple in Jerusalem was standing (from Biblical times through 70 C.E.), the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) was mandated by the Torah to perform a complex set of special services and sacrifices for Yom Kippur to attain Divine atonement, the word “kippur” meaning “atone” in Hebrew.

These services were considered to be the most important parts of Yom Kippur because through them the Kohen Gadol made atonement for all Jews and the world.

During the service, the Kohen Gadol entered the Holy of Holies in the center of the Temple, the only time of the year that anyone went inside.

Doing so required special purification and preparation, including five immersions in a mikvah (ritual bath), and four changes of clothing.

Seven days prior to Yom Kippur, the Kohen Gadol was sequestered in the Palhedrin chamber in the Temple, where he reviewed (studied) the service with the sages familiar with the Temple, and was sprinkled with spring water containing ashes of the Red Heifer as purification.

The Talmud (Tractate Yoma) also reports that he practiced the incense offering ritual in the Avitnas chamber.

On the day of Yom Kippur, the Kohen Gadol had to follow a precise order of services, sacrifices, and purifications:

Morning (Tamid) Offering The Kohen Gadol first performed the regular daily (Tamid) offering — usually performed by ordinary priests — in special golden garments, after immersing in a mikvah and washing his hands and feet."

Continued at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur#Temple_service

 

[po18guy]

Matt.26: 28 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” What is meant by this verse? And to who might it apply? Pat

Christ, being the Paschal Lamb, had to have His Blood shed by man in atonement for man’s sins, just as the Paschal lamb under the Mosaic covenant had its blood shed by man in atonement for sin. And, just as with the Passover Lamb, the flesh had to be eaten.

As to for whom it occurred, I turn to Mark 16:16 “He who believes, and is baptised will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned”.

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;7515796]The author of Matthew was expressing one of the beliefs of the early Christian community that “somehow” the death of Jesus of Nazareth effected a mystical change in the fabric of the universe whereby through his death creation was once again reconciled and the forgiveness of sins universal in scope.

Assuming for the moment that you are correct; how does this reconcile with:

1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 5: 16-17; John 20: 19-23, Heb. 6:10; 1 Peter 1:17 or Rev. 2:23?
I’m not [at least not yet] saying your wrong; but would like to know how you reconcile these seemingly divergent views?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=po18guy;7516242]Christ, being the Paschal Lamb, had to have His Blood shed by man in atonement for man’s sins, just as the Paschal lamb under the Mosaic covenant had its blood shed by man in atonement for sin. And, just as with the Passover Lamb, the flesh had to be eaten.

As to for whom it occurred, I turn to Mark 16:16 “He who believes, and is baptised will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned”.

:Let me assume or the moment that your reply is correct and complete:

How do you my friend reconcile this with:

1 John 1:8-10; 1 john 5:16-17; John 20:19-23; 1 Peter 1:17 and Rev. 2:23? And what effect does yur position have on the Commandments?

God Bless,
Pat