Why a Life of Penance? Why do People Do It?

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Okay, I will. Thanks.

I understand the idea of suffering with Christ. Now how does one reconcile all this suffering with John 15:11 “have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete”?
Easy. Don’t confuse a cheap happiness (really contentment) with joy. Think of the woman’s joy after suffering through childbirth.

Joy and suffering supernaturally are closely related.

Whose joy do you think was more complete: Christ’s after his passion and resurrection or ours after we sleep in late, have a big breakfast, take the day off, lounge around around, drinking margaritas, etc. etc.

The larger context for the Scripture you gave us is this…

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: **Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. **14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

When we truly and sincerely give ourselves totally to God for the benefit of others, our joy will be complete…we will be in heaven.
 
I just thought of something. Today’s Gospel, on the Feast of St. James was Matthew 20: 20-23:

Emphasis mine.

I bet while Jesus was with them, the disciples had no idea that they would suffer just like their Master suffered. I believe most of the Apostles were killed save John.

So I guess the point is we have to be willing to suffer with Christ.
👍
 
The key to understanding this aspect of our faith is to realize that Jesus’s sacrifice to the Father is ever present to the Father - always present. The Father is not bound by space and time. The sacrifice continues for your sins and my sins today. And will continue. We partake in this Sacrifice in the Holy Mass and God give us the opportunity to cooperate and participate in the suffering of Jesus, just like He did for Simon of Cyrene. What dignity God gives us.

We can join our sufferings with Jesus’s and participate in the salvation of the whole world.

Anything that we hold back…and hold dear to us, other than for the love of God…our pride, our comfort, our vanity, worry, our intelligence, our doubt, our weaknesses - these all distance us from perfect holiness and unity with God.

So when we perform small mortifications and penances we give - through God’s grace - supernatural meaning to them. We sanctify them with God’s help. And thus a divine unity is possible. Our annoyances, work, effort, struggles…become MEANS to closer union with God.

Today’s first reading from the Mass (Monday) is a good reminder, emphasis mine

2 Cor 4:7-15
Brothers and sisters:
We hold this treasure in earthen vessels,
that the surpassing power may be of God and not from us.
We are afflicted in every way, but not constrained
;
perplexed, but not driven to despair;
persecuted, but not abandoned;
struck down, but not destroyed;
always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus,
so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our body.
For we who live are constantly being given up to death
for the sake of Jesus,
so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

So death is at work in us, but life in you.

Since, then, we have the same spirit of faith,
according to what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke,
we too believe and therefore speak,
knowing that the one who raised the Lord Jesus
will raise us also with Jesus
and place us with you in his presence.
Everything indeed is for you,
so that the grace bestowed in abundance on more and more people
may cause the thanksgiving to overflow for the glory of God.
Great reply, thank you. I guess I always loked at Paul’s writings on suffferings as dealing with what comes your way, not going out of your way to suffer (i.e. mortification).
 
Okay, I will. Thanks.

I understand the idea of suffering with Christ. Now how does one reconcile all this suffering with John 15:11 “have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete”?
Sorry if I’m being pushy about the divine mercy book its just an amazing read 😛

I agree with both your subsequent post and what EdwardH said on the subject, true joy consists in suffering for christ this was the universal opinion of their saints. Great mystics like Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque and St Maria Faustina loved nothing more than to suffer for Christ always out of love and in order to quell their passions so that they imitate his infinite virtues.

An example from the bible would be Act’s 5:41 where after some of the Apostles had been arrested and beaten they were released and it says ‘5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.’
 
is infinite virtues.

An example from the bible would be Act’s 5:41 where after some of the Apostles had been arrested and beaten they were released and it says ‘5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.’
Right. When I was a teen and was going through a time when I was extremely spiritual and I remember I had stopped wearing pants (that no pants phase lasted for 2 years :p), and kids used to laugh at me because of that, I comforted myself with that verse. At that time, I considered the wearing of pants by woman to be against the Bible.

But let’s say for example I ate bland food for a few days as penance, it’s harder for me to see that as suffering for Christ as it is self-imposed.

You know what I mean?

Regarding the book, I appreciate any suggestions. I’m a voracious reader. I just ordered two other books that were recommended to me on this forum. 👍
 
Great reply, thank you. I guess I always loked at Paul’s writings on suffferings as dealing with what comes your way, not going out of your way to suffer (i.e. mortification).
I don’t think I meant to imply going out of one’s way to suffer. What I understand Paul means here and elsewhere, and what the message of the Gospel is…is to love with your whole life…and that necessarily, unavoidably means self-donating.

But that self-donating is not empty sacrifice or pain…it’s joyful union with God.
 
This thread has been a beautiful read and very uplifting my thanks go out to everyone for letting God speak to me through you all.

If I am understanding things correctly, conversion, repentance, penance and discipline all seem to go hand in hand. It is what we all have to go through in order to truly become like Jesus Christ. After all, He is the Way the Light and He calls us to follow Him and the only way to the Father is through Him.
Understanding this helps me see more clearly the meaning of the commandment to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling.”
My understanding is that in order for our conversion to start we have to first see, understand and acknowledge exactly what it is about us that is not Christ-like.
Realizing and acknowledging how un-Christ-like one is can cause a soul a fear and trembling like nothing else I can think of.
But in order for us to even begin to start our conversion from darkness and death into Light and Eternal Life we have to not be afraid, as Blessed John Paul II said, and face that fear. Then we have to be ever aware of that fear to ensure it does not blind us from truly seeing exactly who and what we are.
The way I understand it is we have to go looking inside ourselves for Jesus with a flash light, like I heard described once before, in every room shinning the light in every nook and cranny and if we do not find Jesus there we have to work at letting Him enter there and work at keeping Him there.
So, converting, repenting, doing penance and practicing disciplines is about spending time with Jesus, getting to know Him, listening to Him, understand Him and choosing to follow Him and then being transformed into Him so that we can be Jesus Christ to each other as Jesus Christ is to us…I have found the best way to understand this is to reflect on my life’s journey.
In my struggles to understand and follow God’s Will for me Jesus has seemed to always be there for me comforting and encouraging. Never trying to make me feel bad or guilty. Even though I can look back at the mistakes I have made, it always puzzled me that I was not incinerated or that I never heard Him yelling or screaming at me “don’t do that!”, He was always there loving me regardless of how bad or sinful my choices were, helping and guiding me to see and understand my mistakes which He always seemed to forgive even before I asked for forgiveness and always helped me correct them and to not do them again. He was also obedient to His parents and remembering that helped me when I was younger and now that I am married.

So, to answer the OP question, why live a life of penance or why do I do it?
Jesus has shown a love to me that I could never have imagined and I know He has that same love for everyone and I want nothing more than to share His love with everyone. Then I have the voice of His Blessed Mother Mary always ringing in my ears, just like the Blessed Motehr she is, telling me, “Do whatever He tells you!”
So I live a life of penance so that I can become to others as He is to me.

I do not know if this helps answer your questions at all but as always I do hope and pray this makes some sense.

With my love and prayers,
 
The way I understand it is we have to go looking inside ourselves for Jesus with a flash light, like I heard described once before, in every room shinning the light in every nook and cranny and if we do not find Jesus there we have to work at letting Him enter there and work at keeping Him there.
I love this.

We have to make sure that Jesus is in every part of us. We can’t have locked doors where Jesus cannot enter. You know how you might have company drop by unannounced and you close that bedroom door with the unmade bed and you lead your guests into the neat and tidy living room? We can’t keep Jesus out of the rooms that are a mess.

Besides, Jesus can walk through doors. 😛
 
Another aspect about penance, that I don’t think we have touched on in this thread, is that penance is truly a “way” to express love to our Good Lord. When a person is truly “in love” with a person, sometimes it is difficult to find enough ways to show that love to the person! Same thing with our Lord! Some days I feel so close to our Lord that it seems as if half of me is already in heaven, and on those days, I so want to figure out a zillion ways to show Him how grateful I am for His Love. And that is when those little acts of penance and love are so wonderful, and detachment from this earth actually is a blessing from Heaven! It makes it possible to keep one foot here while the other foot is in heaven!
 
I love this.

We have to make sure that Jesus is in every part of us. We can’t have locked doors where Jesus cannot enter. **You know how you might have company drop by unannounced and you close that bedroom door with the unmade bed and you lead your guests into the neat and tidy living room? **
:eek: have you been in my house?:hmmm:
We can’t keep Jesus out of the rooms that are a mess.

Besides, Jesus can walk through doors. 😛
*I am so thanful He can. *
 
Another aspect about penance, that I don’t think we have touched on in this thread, is that penance is truly a “way” to express love to our Good Lord. When a person is truly “in love” with a person, sometimes it is difficult to find enough ways to show that love to the person! Same thing with our Lord! Some days I feel so close to our Lord that it seems as if half of me is already in heaven, and on those days, I so want to figure out a zillion ways to show Him how grateful I am for His Love. And that is when those little acts of penance and love are so wonderful, and detachment from this earth actually is a blessing from Heaven! It makes it possible to keep one foot here while the other foot is in heaven!
Great point.

All of these things we do…prayer, fasting, reading scripture, going to Mass, confession, devotions, making offerings, rectifying our intention, examining our conscience, offering acts of charity, penance, hope, smiling when confronted with annoyances out of love and unity with Him, saying the Rosary, giving up attachments for the love of God…all of these things are ways of drawing closer to God, of unifying more and more of our life with Him (vs. pigeon-holing our approaches to God to just Sundays).

Unity.
 
*I am reminded of a few verses in Psalm 50
-I will teach your ways to sinners
and the wicked shall return to You.
-Deliver me from blood-guilt, Oh God, my saving God.
and my tongue will joyfully sing Your
justice.,

-O Lord, You shall open my lips
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
-Had You desired sacrifice, I would have offered it,
but You will not be satisfied with whole-burnt offerings.

-Sacrifice to God is a contrite spirit:
a crushed and humble heart God will not spurn.
-In Your kindness, O Lord, be bountiful to Sion;
may the walls of Jerusalem be restored.

-Then will You delight in just oblation,
in sacrifice and whole-burnt offerings.
-Then shall they offer calves upon Your alter.

This Psalm always gets me dwelling on how God is always accepting our love, no matter how imperfect it is and no matter how much pain we may cause Him in it’s imperfection, He still keeps loving us anyway. So I pray that He will open my mouth and I will declaire His praise by trying to share His Love and Justice with others as He has shared it with me.
 
Another aspect about penance, that I don’t think we have touched on in this thread, is that penance is truly a “way” to express love to our Good Lord. When a person is truly “in love” with a person, sometimes it is difficult to find enough ways to show that love to the person! Same thing with our Lord! Some days I feel so close to our Lord that it seems as if half of me is already in heaven, and on those days, I so want to figure out a zillion ways to show Him how grateful I am for His Love. And that is when those little acts of penance and love are so wonderful, and detachment from this earth actually is a blessing from Heaven! It makes it possible to keep one foot here while the other foot is in heaven!
This is actually very interesting.

Back in the day, before my time, “suitors” used to go through all sorts of hardships to show their love for a young lady. So by denying oneself, one is attempting to show the Lord that we are willing to partake in his suffering.
 
*I am reminded of a few verses in Psalm 50

This Psalm always gets me dwelling on how God is always accepting our love, no matter how imperfect it is and no matter how much pain we may cause Him in it’s imperfection, He still keeps loving us anyway. So I pray that He will open my mouth and I will declaire His praise by trying to share His* Love and Justice with others as He has shared it with me.
Amen and Amen!
 
Great point.

All of these things we do…prayer, fasting, reading scripture, going to Mass, confession, devotions, making offerings, rectifying our intention, examining our conscience, offering acts of charity, penance, hope, smiling when confronted with annoyances out of love and unity with Him, saying the Rosary, giving up attachments for the love of God…all of these things are ways of drawing closer to God, of unifying more and more of our life with Him (vs. pigeon-holing our approaches to God to just Sundays).

Unity.
I am going to meditate on that word “unity” for the next few days. You are oh so right. When I offer up little things to our Good Lord, I always find that he returns the love I offer Him with so much more than I could ever have offered to Him. In the context of the word “unity” that makes so much sense…when we give our love to the Lord, we end up being “united” to Him, and thus receive His Pure Love channeled right back… what a gift!!!
 
When I think of penance and I watch what other people write and say about it, I always think about three of my friends, Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila and Maximilian Kolbe. The three were known for living lives of penance.

What strikes me is the way that they wrote about it and spoke about it, compared to how we do it. We tend to be almost pious and gloomy in our manner of talking about penance. At times, we give the impression that penance is something that is very harsh and almost unendurable. At other times, we appear to sit before the cross drooling just to be like the Suffering Servant. Neither of which the mystics subscribed to.

Then I go back to my friends, Francis, Teresa and Max. When they write about penance, it’s very practical, almost cold, and very matter of fact, as if they were writing about the weather. I remember paying special attention to this when I was working on my dissertation. The tone said as much, maybe more, than their words. What I found was that sacrifices of any kind were part of daily life. They didn’t see it as anything out of the ordinary. That’s why they often sounded cold.

It’s not the same cold as indifference. It’s the kind of cold that comes with familiarity. Just as I don’t get mushy or passionate because it’s raining, snowing or the sun is shining, because these are normal occurrences of life, these holy people did not get sentimental (that’s a good word) about sacrifice. That was as normal as rain, snow and sunshine. I discovered that they did it as routine. They fasted, abstained, used the discipline, put up with nonsense and silly people, and made little and big sacrifices. It was all out of love. In their mind, there was nothing to be sentimental about. That really impressed me. When I realized that the reason they were so matter-of-fact about it, was because they could not conceive a life without love, I was truly humbled. I realized, that this is the goal, to reach a point when one can’t imagine a life without loving. When one lives that way, there is nothing that one won’t do for the sake of love, be it love of neighbor or love of God. After a while, they blend into one.

I will never forget what Teresa of Avila said about overly pious people. “God preserve me from sour faced saints.” Francis said something similar. He called it perfect joy to have to put up with hardships. There was no room for straight faces in his world either. St. Max once told the brothers that if they did not laugh, they could not love. He always said that even in the most sacred, there was some humor, because God is eternally happy. He lived and died by this rule.

The day that he was going to be executed, the doctor and other guards entered the starvation bunker where he was being held. They thought they were going to have to hold him down to give him a lethal injection. Instead, they found that Max has spend weeks without food and water, but was smiling. When he saw the syringe, he looked at the doctor and asked him if he had a family. The doctor said that he did. Maximilian answered, “Tell them that Brother Maximilian loves them.” He offered up his arm, smiled and invoked Mary’s name. In less than one minute, he was dead, but with a smile.

From where I sit, penance is tough, but there is joy in it, not pious gloominess.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
When I think of penance and I watch what other people write and say about it, I always think about three of my friends, Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila and Maximilian Kolbe. The three were known for living lives of penance.

What strikes me is the way that they wrote about it and spoke about it, compared to how we do it. We tend to be almost pious and gloomy in our manner of talking about penance. At times, we give the impression that penance is something that is very harsh and almost unendurable. At other times, we appear to sit before the cross drooling just to be like the Suffering Servant. Neither of which the mystics subscribed to.

Then I go back to my friends, Francis, Teresa and Max. When they write about penance, it’s very practical, almost cold, and very matter of fact, as if they were writing about the weather. I remember paying special attention to this when I was working on my dissertation. The tone said as much, maybe more, than their words. What I found was that sacrifices of any kind were part of daily life. They didn’t see it as anything out of the ordinary. That’s why they often sounded cold.

It’s not the same cold as indifference. It’s the kind of cold that comes with familiarity. Just as I don’t get mushy or passionate because it’s raining, snowing or the sun is shining, **because these are normal occurrences of life, these holy people did not get sentimental (that’s a good word) about sacrifice. That was as normal as rain, snow and sunshine. I discovered that they did it as routine. They fasted, abstained, used the discipline, put up with nonsense and silly people, and made little and big sacrifices. It was all out of love. In their mind, there was nothing to be sentimental about. ** That really impressed me. When I realized that the reason they were so matter-of-fact about it, was because they could not conceive a life without love, I was truly humbled. I realized, that this is the goal, to reach a point when one can’t imagine a life without loving. When one lives that way, there is nothing that one won’t do for the sake of love, be it love of neighbor or love of God. After a while, they blend into one.

I will never forget what Teresa of Avila said about overly pious people. “God preserve me from sour faced saints.” Francis said something similar. He called it perfect joy to have to put up with hardships. There was no room for straight faces in his world either. St. Max once told the brothers that if they did not laugh, they could not love. ** He always said that even in the most sacred, there was some humor, because God is eternally happy. ** He lived and died by this rule.

The day that he was going to be executed, the doctor and other guards entered the starvation bunker where he was being held. They thought they were going to have to hold him down to give him a lethal injection. Instead, they found that Max has spend weeks without food and water, but was smiling. When he saw the syringe, he looked at the doctor and asked him if he had a family. The doctor said that he did. Maximilian answered, “Tell them that Brother Maximilian loves them.” He offered up his arm, smiled and invoked Mary’s name. In less than one minute, he was dead, but with a smile.

From where I sit, penance is tough, but there is joy in it, not pious gloominess.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
*Thank you so much for sharing this Br. Jay, especially the parts that I emphasized, it is very reassuring to know.🙂
*
 
Can abstaining from sex from one’s spouse for a time be used as penance?
 
Can abstaining from sex from one’s spouse for a time be used as penance?
Hmm. Did you run out of other ideas, forms of penance?

Bottom line…an act of penance needs to be an act of love, done for the love of God.

I would ask a priest about this?

God gives us our spouse to practice love and great and increasing generosity.

I, personally, wouldn’t unless there was something impure, unchaste about the ongoing marital relations…did they involve pornography, etc. etc. and only after receiving thorough guidance from a priest. I mean I could imagine that if previous lovemaking was impure, unchaste, I could possibly see some period of abstinence to sort distance oneself from the impurity…but I am just thinking off the top of my head.
 
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