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hosemonkey
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AMDGtoo
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Well, first it might be that they don’t want to be snubbed by their families and they would be. Then, of course, they don’t want to lose their friends. And of course, there’s the losing their jobs-- should the employer be Mormon. Also, I’m certain that the people don’t exactly look forward to having their reputations ruined–the LDS don’t exactly even consider that there might be a valid reason for becoming “ex”–they simply think that the person who is “ex” committed some unthinkable sin. Also, well maybe the “exs” here can shed light, is there still fear of being called an apostate without hope of salvation?
I rather think that your church pulled Romney aside and suggested that the “secrets” of your Temple (which are never supposed to be divulged) would be at risk of being divulged if Romney continued. I mean, don’t you have “covenants” and all and aren’t you supposed to promise (on pain of death) to give all “blessings” to the LDS?
Umm–from what I hear, he brought his troubles on himself. Illegallly taking to wive other men’s wives, their sisters and all, having himself crowned king, ordering destruction of property. Also believe he had actually tried to escape…and then there was that gun battle in jail…
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dianaiad
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Well, you have convinced me, Jesse. John Smith was definitely not a prophet.
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hosemonkey
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You know very well who Jesse was talking about.
John,Joseph…whatever. Joseph Smith was most certainly not a prophet either, except in his own mind.
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dianaiad
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Perhaps…but that’s precisely the same league we believe he IS in.
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dianaiad
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Dunno. Very effectively duped, I guess. It would take some very spectacular mental gymnastics for most non-mormons to swallow most mormon beliefs.
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dianaiad
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All thirteen million of us?
The vast majority of Mormons are minorities in their communities. That is, they don’t live in Utah. In fact, most Mormons live outside the USA. Thus the VAST majority of Mormons work for non-Mormon employers…and in most cases, those employers would not only NOT fire a Mormon for leaving his religion, he might even get praised/promoted. Mormons are, after all, considered to be pretty wierd.
Remember, Mr. Z claimed that ALL of us 'know we are wrong." That is, that all 13 to 14 million of us are living hypocrites. How reasonable is that claim? How would you react to a claim that all Catholics actually know that Catholicism is wrong? It is a ludicrous claim. I know that you don’t believe we are correct, but please do us the courtesy of understanding that WE believe what we claim we do.
We may not all believe what you claim we do, but that’s an entirely different thing.
…and I hear the black helicopters…
Did you miss the part about Harry Reid being a Mormon? As to the ‘secrets’ of the Temple, c’mon. There aren’t any. YOU can get the Temple script by a two second google search. We don’t try to force people to get rid of it. The purpose of the Temple is explained on lds.org (though something tells me that you’d rather have a tooth pulled without anesthesia rather than actually go there…) and nobody puts snakes in the mailboxes of the folks who post those scripts, or who go read them. Dang, lady, I’ve heard of conspiracy theorists, but you have to be up for some sort of award.
What Temple matters are, to us, is SACRED. You go look, and find everything. It’s out there, within a mouse click or two. However, because it is sacred to ME, don’t expect me to discuss it with you.
Do you see the difference? you have NO right to insist that I show disrespect for those things I consider sacred just so you can satisfy your curiousity. However, neither did you make any of the promises and covenants I did to so respect them. So…go find out for yourself. T’aint hard.
“having himself crowned king?” Wow. True, I think that Obama thought that being elected to the presidency was akin to a crowning, but the last time I heard, running for the office was not considered a coronation.
Also, last time I heard, ordering the dismantling of a printing press (the damage for which he paid, by the way) was NOT punishable by death…nor is anything that Joseph was accused of doing, much less anything that he actually DID do, justified the death of his infant son. Come to think of it, being tarred and feathered for something that he absolutely did not do isn’t generally considered justice…except perhaps by folks like you.
As to the 'gun battle in jail?"
That’s quite a description of a man who defended himself with one pistol that misfired after three shots against a mob of 200 men who had already killed his brother…and who thought they were coming to murder four completely unarmed, and imprisoned, men.
I wish it HAD been a 'gun battle." That is, I wish that Joseph had been better armed. With an automatic, perhaps. A missile launcher. Shoot, given the utter cowardice shown by the men who attacked the jail, a decent sling shot would have been better.
But wait.
You’re just pulling my chain here, aren’t you? Nobody is actually serious about saying stuff like you have here.
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hosemonkey
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dianaiad
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Oh, well, I DO believe that Joseph was a prophet. I certainly understand that you don’t think he was, though. I just think that it’s reasonable to expect someone who has such definite opinions about the man to get his name right.
call it me being picky.
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Xavierlives
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I’ve been away (from CAF and this thread) but this is a very enlightening statement. This is one of the things Jesus actually says in the Book of John. John the Baptist testified to the things of Christ. The very scripture testifies to Christ’s message. Everything is in harmony. The BoM is disharmonious. The only witness is Joseph Smith. According to Jewish law, it takes two witnesses for something to be valid.
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RebeccaJ
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There are not 13-14 million mormons…that is a myth propagated by the fact the LDS takes this count from the number of people in their member database. If this church loses contact with someone they continue counting them as “members” until their 100th birthday.
Statistics show at best only about 1/2 of this number are actually "active"mormons, with other statistics showing only about 1/3 of LDS adults are “temple worthy”.
Statistics show at best only about 1/2 of this number are actually "active"mormons, with other statistics showing only about 1/3 of LDS adults are “temple worthy”.
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Xavierlives
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No. I don’t think you know you are wrong. I think that is the sad part. If you knew, you might repent. If Mormons knew the Bible, then they would know the truth. They would not have “Joseph Smith revised and added scriptures” versions of the Bible. But a revised truth is not the truth. A truth with added parts is not the truth. Truth is the truth unedited, unrevised, unmanipulated, unamputated, unamended. That truth is the truth that Mormons choose to ignore, choose to revise, choose to manipulate, choose to amend. The knowing you have things wrong comes from the knowing that your faith actively did those thing. When a Mormon accepts those manipulations that is a “knowing…” Some might not understand it at first. Some might be born into it. Some might be too far from light that they only see the shadow puppet and actually believe that what they are viewing is a real bunny. They are not seeing the truth. They are seeing a mere shadow. Little manipulations of the truth to look right, but when you have seen the truth, your understanding of a shadow puppet is made clear. Mormons are not seeing the light, they are seeing the darkness.
I am amazed so many Christians follow Glen Beck. Talk about being brainwashed.
Even as a conservative, I can see Beck’s amazing slant.
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TheosisM
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Sadly, this is the same argument I see used against Catholics at CARM.
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Xavierlives
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Xavierlives
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The same argument is used against Baptists. They don’t remove people from their roles without a direct communication from the member that says “move my letter to so-and-so church” or “remove me from your roles” or “I have died.”Sadly, this is the same argument I see used against Catholics at CARM.
35 million Baptist? I don’t think so.
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hosemonkey
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You are certainly free to believe that the earth is flat. This, however does not make it so. Just as the earth has been proven to be round, so has Joseph Smith and the “religion” that he invented been proven to be fraudulent, very similar to Scientology, invented by L. Ron Hubbard.Oh, well, I DO believe that Joseph was a prophet. I certainly understand that you don’t think he was, though. I just think that it’s reasonable to expect someone who has such definite opinions about the man to get his name right.
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sablouwho
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Theosis, I’m curious–do you mean that the argument is invalid? I don’t hang around at CARM so I don’t know what the specifics of what is said there. But I would indeed imagine that the number of practicing Catholics would be less than the number of baptized Catholics, same as with the LDS.Sadly, this is the same argument I see used against Catholics at CARM.
Personally I think it is a silly game, exaggerating the number of adherents. At one point in history I would imagine that a majority believed the world was flat–it didn’t make it true. Same with religion–a large number of adherents doesn’t make a faith true.
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RebeccaJ
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Seeing as how the RCC doesn’t have a member database, I don’t how they could.Sadly, this is the same argument I see used against Catholics at CARM.
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RebeccaJ
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I agree…the claim by Dianaiad wasn’t about this though. She was a claiming that there are 13-14 million mormons who are true believing mormons…more like half that, if even that, as that number includes non-baptized children under the age of 8.
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