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RebeccaJ
Guest
Do you trust God?
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ralphinal
Guest
As a Catholic, you do not have to accept ANY visions of ANY person by ANYONE. Those are known as private revelation and as such are not binding on the entire Church. If we apply the same criteria to JS, there is no reason to accept him, either. One may choose to do so, but it is not a requirement of the faith.
All of us are required to accept public revelation, which ended with the death of John the Apostle.
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Lapey
Guest
Glad to see you are starting to see doubts about the LDS teachings and church. Seek and you shall find! You shouldn’t believe in John Smith’s teachings because the authority in position place there by Jesus did not accept his messages. He is a false prophit, a wolf in sheeps clothing if you will. He had lead millions astray from Christ.
To your other point, Jesus and Mary were not good Catholics, they were VERY GOOD JEWS!!!
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twinkletwinkle
Guest
Is the Catholic church the authority by God today?
Are you absolutely certain? Your very salvation does rest upon it.
The Bible is a book that foretells the future:
1 Timothy 4:1-5 foretold:
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; *forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. *The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,*for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it].”
Are you absolutely certain? Your very salvation does rest upon it.
The Bible is a book that foretells the future:
1 Timothy 4:1-5 foretold:
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; *forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth. *The reason for this is that every creation of God is fine, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,*for it is sanctified through God’s word and prayer over [it].”
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
What do you mean our ‘very salvation’ does rest upon it? And what do you consider the authority to be?
You passage maybe taken out of context by yourself. Is your interpretation ‘infallible’?
The Bible clearly speaks of fasting, so there is no abstaining totally from any food in the Catholic Church.
Priests take vows of celibacy. There is no forbidding to marry.
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Tmaque
Guest
Uhhh…Catholics get married all the time and can eat anything we want. Priests CHOOSE to enter a life of celibacy(Roman rite only). Doesn’t sound like “forbidding” to me. We abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent as a discipline, like fasting. I’m so very comfortable in my belief as a Catholic. I am certain. If the Catholic Church is not true then Christianity itself is not true.
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Catholic_to_LDS
Guest
Thankyou for those of you who answered. My question about “good” Catholics seeing Mary or Jesus comes from the many stories that they have appeared to good, faithful Catholics. I was wondering that if they could see them, why couldn’t JS see the"finger" of God or Jesus. To me that isn’t to far off.
My other question has more to do with those who say that JS is a wolf in sheeps clothing. I read the quote given from the book that was sited, but what have you all found that proves he is as evil as you all say. I would realy like to know.
My other question has more to do with those who say that JS is a wolf in sheeps clothing. I read the quote given from the book that was sited, but what have you all found that proves he is as evil as you all say. I would realy like to know.
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SteveVH
Guest
Apparitions are not necessarily witnessed by only “good” people. The miracle of the sun at Fatima was witnessed by hundreds - I’m sure there were a few sinners mixed in with all the “good, faithful Catholics”.
In every Marian apparition one thing seems to be common; she directs everyone to her Son. She has no “new gospel” to reveal. Her Son is the fullness of truth, God’s final revelation, His only Word. She always points to Him.Joseph Smith didn’t do that. He created “new gospel”, a different gospel. Isn’t it something that, with all the apparitions claimed by Catholics (and others), we have never received “new revelation” and not one doctrine has been changed? There is no other revelation to be received, God has spoken His one and only Word, Jesus. There is nothing left to say. Any further “revelation” is from man. I suppose God can appear to anyone He wishes, but would God direct Joseph Smith to sleep with 15 year old girls and other men’s wives? “By their fruits you shall know them”. When his doctrines are completley foreign to historical Christianity (very well documented history) do ya think it might at least give you pause? Can any of JS’s claims be documented with evidence?
I don’t doubt God’s ability to appear to anyone He chooses, but Joseph Smith’s story just doesn’t hold water IMO.
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PaulDupre
Guest
There is a very simple reason to reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God:
During all the time Joseph was claiming to get revelations from God, he was seducing young girls, bedding and “marrying” the wives of other men, and lying to his wife about it.
He also lied publicly, condemning polygamy in the strongest terms, while he and his close associates were practicing it the whole time.
Joseph Smith claimed to receive D&C Section 132 as direct revelation from God. Section 132 states that in order for a man to take another wife, his first wife must give her consent. Joseph married dozens of girls before his wife ever even found out about it. So much for Joseph’s “revelation”.
Joseph claimed to be restoring Old Testament polygamy. But the law of Moses states that it is an abomination for a man to marry sisters. Joseph married two pair of sisters. So much for a restoration of OT polygamy.
And it goes on and on…
Paul (a former Mormon now happily Catholic)
During all the time Joseph was claiming to get revelations from God, he was seducing young girls, bedding and “marrying” the wives of other men, and lying to his wife about it.
He also lied publicly, condemning polygamy in the strongest terms, while he and his close associates were practicing it the whole time.
Joseph Smith claimed to receive D&C Section 132 as direct revelation from God. Section 132 states that in order for a man to take another wife, his first wife must give her consent. Joseph married dozens of girls before his wife ever even found out about it. So much for Joseph’s “revelation”.
Joseph claimed to be restoring Old Testament polygamy. But the law of Moses states that it is an abomination for a man to marry sisters. Joseph married two pair of sisters. So much for a restoration of OT polygamy.
And it goes on and on…
Paul (a former Mormon now happily Catholic)
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RebeccaJ
Guest
JS also married mother and daughter…yes, think about that Mormons…to be a woman who is sharing a man with your daughter or your mom. Or to be a father and stand by as your wife and daughter bed the same man…certainly not a practice that came from God.
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
This is preliminary to answering your response.
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
I had waited to see if the poster to whom I had responded would respond, but since not, then I will respond to you now.
First, the other poster had cited the key of David as having been given to Peter, which is totally incorrect. Christ is the only One with the key of David.
Second, I would not want to be the one to stand before Jesus and say, “I don’t care what Your judgment is about me–You gave the keys to heaven to Peter so I don’t need to deal with You at all.” How does John say Jesus has the authority to say “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne”–if Jesus doesn’t even have the authority to allow entrance into heaven?
All the apostles were given keys to bind and loose that it be recorded in heaven and the delegated authority of Christ on earth to the “keys of the kingdom of heaven”, but it is not like Christ didn’t still have the ultimate authority and didn’t still retain the same keys. One who delegates can still retain authority that has been delegated.
You could try drawing a simple picture. An angel comes to earth, provides a book with the everlasting gospel in the book, and the book goes forth into the world. The angel has thus “preached unto them that dwell on earth” by a means that allows the people on earth over centuries of time to get the book, read it, and decide for themselves whether it is the everlasting gospel, rather than being forced by some divine manifestation that would take away free choice, to learn the fullness of the everlasting gospel. This is key to understanding how God works among humankind. He does not force, nor do the angels force.
Indeed, and He is still fulfilling prophecies and will continue to do so until they are all fulfilled.
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ParkerD
Guest
To the general reader:
In the interest of my time, I am posting here a couple of responses from a prior thread that dealt with some accusations about Joseph Smith:
Feb 26, '10, 2:34 am
ParkerD
Regular Member
Join Date: March 17, 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,715
Religion: LDS Church
Re: LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
He did flee Ohio for his life. (I suppose people think he should have stayed knowing he would be killed, but if it had been me in similar shoes with a wife and children and knowing the imperfect court system at that time, I would have fled Ohio also.)
Joseph Smith wrote one of the superb literary treasures of all time (my opinion–D & C 121) from the Liberty Jail (where my daughter happens to be a guide at the present time) in 1839 during the four months you alluded to, and once again your views are different than mine about trusting a faulty legal system (already very evident in his case) and not seeking a chance to escape the dungeon and the horrible food and seek to go support his wife and children in very difficult circumstances.
He didn’t use the word “polygamy” to describe celestial marriage. He was advised by an attorney as to his rights and the legalities of what he did.
The wonderful thing about all this, is that you certainly have many reasons to think that God could not possibly have called Joseph Smith as a prophet, and you will be self-justified and can go on your way thinking that you have proven to yourself how God works among humankind. I have no problem with your choice to do that–God intends for each person to have that choice with every conceivable justification to make whatever choice they want to make for themselves. God’s plan is a perfect plan, perfectly conceived and perfectly carried out among humankind–we who are imperfect.
#397
Feb 26, '10, 2:18 am
ParkerD
Regular Member
Join Date: March 17, 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,715
Religion: LDS Church
Re: LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
(Quotes about Joseph Smith and plural marriage)…
I suppose you had realized that each of the women you quoted from in your post were single when they were sealed to Joseph Smith, and that not one of them had a child by Joseph Smith being the father, yet some had children by other marriages after Joseph Smith died and they remarried. Also, each of those women wrote of their testimony of Joseph Smith. They may have been reluctant about the doctrine (so would have I), but they believed in a prophet of God strongly enough and had had the witness of the Holy Spirit strongly enough about God guiding a prophet on earth, that they were willing to do something their natural inclination was to not do. This is called an Abrahamic test of faith–you will remember that Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac even though that was completely contrary to God’s law for man.
Brigham Young supported his wives in their talents and interests and abilities. Joseph Smith did that with his wife, Emma. The other women sealed to him did not live for any length of time with him, so it is not a case that one should hang their hat on as far as understanding what I meant by “equal partners who bring equal abilities and unique gifts from God to their marriage”, but you may be assured that I am supportive of my wife in that way to the best of my ability and grateful for her equal role in every way.
Have a good day, to all readers here.
In the interest of my time, I am posting here a couple of responses from a prior thread that dealt with some accusations about Joseph Smith:
Feb 26, '10, 2:34 am
ParkerD
Regular Member
Join Date: March 17, 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,715
Religion: LDS Church
Re: LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
He was not “convicted of several offenses in fair, legal trials.” He was not “convicted of being a con artist”.
He did flee Ohio for his life. (I suppose people think he should have stayed knowing he would be killed, but if it had been me in similar shoes with a wife and children and knowing the imperfect court system at that time, I would have fled Ohio also.)
Joseph Smith wrote one of the superb literary treasures of all time (my opinion–D & C 121) from the Liberty Jail (where my daughter happens to be a guide at the present time) in 1839 during the four months you alluded to, and once again your views are different than mine about trusting a faulty legal system (already very evident in his case) and not seeking a chance to escape the dungeon and the horrible food and seek to go support his wife and children in very difficult circumstances.
He didn’t use the word “polygamy” to describe celestial marriage. He was advised by an attorney as to his rights and the legalities of what he did.
The wonderful thing about all this, is that you certainly have many reasons to think that God could not possibly have called Joseph Smith as a prophet, and you will be self-justified and can go on your way thinking that you have proven to yourself how God works among humankind. I have no problem with your choice to do that–God intends for each person to have that choice with every conceivable justification to make whatever choice they want to make for themselves. God’s plan is a perfect plan, perfectly conceived and perfectly carried out among humankind–we who are imperfect.
#397
Feb 26, '10, 2:18 am
ParkerD
Regular Member
Join Date: March 17, 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 2,715
Religion: LDS Church
Re: LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
(Quotes about Joseph Smith and plural marriage)…
Paul C,
I suppose you had realized that each of the women you quoted from in your post were single when they were sealed to Joseph Smith, and that not one of them had a child by Joseph Smith being the father, yet some had children by other marriages after Joseph Smith died and they remarried. Also, each of those women wrote of their testimony of Joseph Smith. They may have been reluctant about the doctrine (so would have I), but they believed in a prophet of God strongly enough and had had the witness of the Holy Spirit strongly enough about God guiding a prophet on earth, that they were willing to do something their natural inclination was to not do. This is called an Abrahamic test of faith–you will remember that Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac even though that was completely contrary to God’s law for man.
Brigham Young supported his wives in their talents and interests and abilities. Joseph Smith did that with his wife, Emma. The other women sealed to him did not live for any length of time with him, so it is not a case that one should hang their hat on as far as understanding what I meant by “equal partners who bring equal abilities and unique gifts from God to their marriage”, but you may be assured that I am supportive of my wife in that way to the best of my ability and grateful for her equal role in every way.
Have a good day, to all readers here.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
They key of David is an example of the understanding of keys in those days. Just as those of the times understood the keys of David, they understood a new King sat upon the throne of David and He had His own keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, which He bestowed upon Peter. The modern mind doesn’t understand the keys as the men appointed/ordained by Christ. This is a logical reason we don’t see scriptures repeat what the keys meant with an explanation that the modern mind would find ‘satisfactory’.
You ‘I don’t need to deal with You’ analogy is distorted. If we accept that Christ built a Church, the keys are the representation of authority to establish doctrines. Christ is the head of the Church and has the power to work through what He built so that we are dealing directly under Him through the authority He established. It is His authority, through His Church, that allows entrance into heaven.
The thing missing in your ‘all apostles were given keys’ is any mention of keys. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven AND the authority to bind and loose, at the time Christ announced He was building a Church. The Apostles were given an authority to bind and loose in instances of disputes.
The keys, as explained to the modern mind through the example of the keys of David, are only an example of authority to be exercised in the earthly absence of the king. The holder of the keys is the chosen, by the king, and answers directly to the king and no other.
The book the angel, that appeared ONLY to Joseph Smith, preached another gospel. God works among mankind, and has through ALL generations since the death and resurrection of Christ, in the Church that He built.
Using your logic, we also have the Koran. Do Mormons accept that as ‘preaching to all that dwell on earth’?
The differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon are distinct. We have some of the original writings of the Bible, written on papyrus and skins. Where are the golden plates that would endure time much better than papyrus and skins?
J
Jay53
Guest
What is the significance of Joseph Smith being sealed to multiple women? Why is/was that necessary and what ramifications does it have (to Joseph Smith, to Emma and to the other women and their husbands) in the Mormon view of the “Celestial Kingdom”?
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ParkerD
Guest
ProdigalSon1,
I see that you don’t think God can differentiate between giving the world a true book through an angel, or allowing a false prophet to deceive a whole multitude of people with a false “revelation.” I personally think God has more power and knowledge than you seem to have given Him credit for. I also think He allows people to make choices, even as you have taken the opportunity to make the choices you have made. The choice rests with the person, not with God making anyone do His will by force, or by divine manifestations to prove that He is real and that He has given the world truth. He lets people figure out truth based on getting the Holy Spirit personally into their life.
Have a good day.
I see that you don’t think God can differentiate between giving the world a true book through an angel, or allowing a false prophet to deceive a whole multitude of people with a false “revelation.” I personally think God has more power and knowledge than you seem to have given Him credit for. I also think He allows people to make choices, even as you have taken the opportunity to make the choices you have made. The choice rests with the person, not with God making anyone do His will by force, or by divine manifestations to prove that He is real and that He has given the world truth. He lets people figure out truth based on getting the Holy Spirit personally into their life.
Have a good day.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Jay53,
He said that it was an Abrahamic test of faith, for him and for others. An Abrahamic test is when the logic a person has in their heart and mind, says God should not be asking them to do something, but yet He asks and they go ahead and do because they know the “voice” of God through the Holy Spirit or through His direct voice.
Blacks and the priesthood was another “Abrahamic test of faith.” There are many others that happen to people as they show their faith in God and He tests how substantial that faith really is. Think of Job as another example of that sort of test of faith despite trials or despite seeming inconsistencies.
J
Jay53
Guest
But God did not let Abraham actually kill Isaac.
And what are the ramifications of these sealings in the next world, i.e. how does this affect the afterlife of Joseph, Emma and the other women and their husbands?
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I give God credit for having the power to build a Church and stay with that Church, and ALL people, through all time. I will mention that I see your argument of me limiting God as a poor tactic, or choice of words to say the least. It contradicts the rest of your post, referencing decisions.
Christ and the Apostles taught against false prophets/teachers. Considering the number of people that has existed since the building of the Church, and even in the present time, far outweigh the multitude of people you’re trying to impress upon us as being deceived. Think about it logically for just a second, since you brought it up. Which is a larger multitude of people, the people of the Church Christ built or the people of the Church Joseph Smith built? Mormons claim the Church that Christ built became so corrupted, that it lost it’s valid priesthood. That Church existed for more than 1800 years, before Joseph Smith built his Church. Was 1800 years of people deceived, and still being decieved a smaller multitude than the 200 years of Mormons? Using ‘multitude’ as you use it, seems to work against your argument.
God gave us a brain to discern with. We are to spiritually weigh things, but that cannot be done without using our brains. That’s how we’re to make our decisions. Catholics have logic and the ‘good feeling’, burning in the bosom. There are way too many illogical issues of Mormonism one has to override with their ‘burning in the bosom’, in my honest opinion.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
That is just twisted.:bigyikes:
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