Why Accept Joseph Smith?

[why_me]

There are plenty of failed prophecies, of Joseph Smith, we can discuss. One in particular has brought out multiple explanations from multiple Mormons. The ‘spin’ spins on…

I think that you need to discuss these failed prophecies first.

faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm

 

[why_me]

Yes it did. Upon his death the Latter Day Saint Movement split into at least four different groups. Those four groups have splintered into over 30 groups. Yes, his Church fell apart.
And there were about 6 groups that left him while he was still alive. So he was a liar and a false prophet.

Really? And where are these groups today? However, the catholic church spilt into protestant formations because of the reformation. Many left the body of the church and formed their own churches. It is only natural since humans have their faults.

I still see the church Joseph founded succeeding in Utah and also throughout the world.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think that you need to discuss these failed prophecies first.

faithskeptic.50megs.com/prophecies.htm

Mis-interpretations of scriptures are not failed prophecies, or is your argument that a prophet can fail prophecies and still be a prophet?

**Deu 18:20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain.

Deu 18:21 And if in silent thought thou answer: How shall I know the word that the Lord hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.**

 

[Jay53]

Another catholic who ignores the context of the quotation that I posted on the last page. It is quite obvious that some catholics just can not see the context because they refuse to see it. But, such is life.

I suppose that the boast by paul can also be compared to the captain of the titantic since Paul was also murdered.

I didn’t ignore the context at all. Paul’s comments aren’t even in the same league as what Joseph Smith was alleged to have said.

Did you also consider what Paul said in 2 Cor 12-14 as it relates to Joseph Smith if you are making such a comparison between the two men? It seems that if Joseph Smith wants to be “regarded just as we are in the matter about which [he] is boasting”, then he also has to accept the charge of Paul as being a false apostle.

But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

 

[lax16]

Really? And where are these groups today? However, the catholic church spilt into protestant formations because of the reformation. Many left the body of the church and formed their own churches. It is only natural since humans have their faults.

I still see the church Joseph founded succeeding in Utah and also throughout the world.

The LDS Church is:
Losing membership in Utah (except thru tremendous birth rate).
Needing to abandon missions in Europe (due to lack of success).
Needing to increase missions in Third World Countries (I think we know why)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Really? And where are these groups today? However, the catholic church spilt into protestant formations because of the reformation. Many left the body of the church and formed their own churches. It is only natural since humans have their faults.

I still see the church Joseph founded succeeding in Utah and also throughout the world.

The Church of Christ Temple Lot, so named because it owns the property where the ‘temple’ was to be built, that still is not built to this day, states the other LDS are ‘apostates’ of the restored Church.

“We do not indorse the teachings of any so-called Mormons or Latter Day Saints, which are in conflict with the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as taught in the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. They have departed in a great measure from the faith of the Church of Christ as it was first established, by heeding revelations given through Joseph Smith, who, after being called of God to translate his sacred word–the Book of Mormon–drifted into many errors and gave many revelations to introduce doctrines, ordinances and offices in the church, which are in conflict with Christ’s teachings.”

• David Whitmer (an elder in the Church of Christ), 1887

Mormon Denominations

After the Succession Crisis which followed Joseph Smith’s murder in 1844, a number of competing hierarchies were organized that fall into the two main branches of the movement, sometimes called the “Prairie Saints” and the “Rocky Mountain Saints.”

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

•The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the “Rocky Mountain Saint” branch of Mormonism.
•The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the “Prairie Saint” movement. Although generally referred to as “Mormons,” they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
•Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
◦Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
◦Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS’ decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
◦Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
◦Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
◦The Church of Christ “With The Elijah Message,” established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
◦Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
◦The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members◦The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – the “RLDS Church”. It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
◦United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
◦The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter’s liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical “The Restoration Advocate” six times a year.

 

[why_me]

1. Paul did not start his own church.

As you can see, there is NO COMPARISON between Paul and Joseph Smith.

Except that Paul boasted in the new testament and joseph used that boast for his own sermon from which critics past one particular part without context.

It can be debatable if Paul started his own church among the gentiles. The church in Jeruselum might have been a tad different from the church among the gentiles. I understand that their were differences between Paul and James.

 

[lax16]

Except that Paul boasted in the new testament and joseph used that boast for his own sermon from which critics past one particular part without context.

It can be debatable if Paul started his own church among the gentiles. The church in Jeruselum might have been a tad different from the church among the gentiles. I understand that their were differences between Paul and James.

You follow Joseph Smith. We do not follow Paul.

 

[why_me]

The Church of Christ Temple Lot, so named because it owns the property where the ‘temple’ was to be built, that still is not built to this day, states the other LDS are ‘apostates’ of the restored Church.

Mormon Denominations

So? I don’t see the point since all this is coming from my defense of Joseph’s sermon about boasting. Catholicism spawned protestantism which has now millions of members.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So? I don’t see the point since all this is coming from my defense of Joseph’s sermon about boasting. Catholicism spawned protestantism which has now millions of members.

You seemed to be in denial that the Mormon Church splintered after the death of Joseph Smith with your comments of, “Really? And where are these groups today?” I was showing you that it in fact did splinter, with some Mormons calling others ‘apostates’ from the restored Church.

We know the history of the Protestant reformation, and we do not deny it. They all came through the Catholic Church. Which Church did all the Mormon ‘denominations’ come through? Which is the ‘real’ Mormon Church?

 

[lax16]

So? I don’t see the point since all this is coming from my defense of Joseph’s sermon about boasting. Catholicism spawned protestantism which has now millions of members.

The point is, Joseph Smith made false claims and was an unsavory fellow.

Yes, there are millions of Protestants AND… There is still the Catholic Church.

How could a church “spawn” another church if the first church was in apostasy?

 

[lax16]

Except that Paul boasted in the new testament and joseph used that boast for his own sermon from which critics past one particular part without context.

It can be debatable if Paul started his own church among the gentiles. The church in Jeruselum might have been a tad different from the church among the gentiles. I understand that their were differences between Paul and James.

Really, no one strives to be Paul-like.
We strive to be Christ-like.

How did Joseph Smith strive to achieve this? (Please use examples)

 

[Stephen168]

Really? And where are these groups today?

Josephites in Missouri
Hedrickites in Missouri
Rigdonites/Bickertonites Pennsylvania
Strangites Wisconsin, New Mexico, Missouri
Brighamites in Utah and
Polygamist groups (Brighamites) around Utah, Arizona and Texas.
The groups that slit during Smiths life are out of business.

As you can see Smith was a false prophet and a liar.

I am surprised you don’t know the most basic history of Mormonism.

However, the catholic church spilt into protestant formations because of the reformation. Many left the body of the church and formed their own churches. It is only natural since humans have their faults.

I still see the church Joseph founded succeeding in Utah and also throughout the world.

Note: The history of Christianity does nothing to negate Smith being a liar and a false prophet. Throwing stones at protestants does not stop Joseph Smith from being a liar and a false prophet. You can point fingers all over the place and it does not stop Joseph Smith from being a liar and a false prophet.

Smith did not say his Church would last; he said it would stay together. It did not.

 

[aspirant]

Upon his death the Latter Day Saint Movement split into at least four different groups. Those four groups have splintered into over 30 groups… And there were about 6 groups that left him while he was still alive.

The RLDS (now CoC) guides at the Kirtland Temple, when I visited in the late 90s, estimated that there are now as many as 1000 or more Smith-derived “Restorationist” churches and communities. Steven Shields’ Divergent Paths of the Restoration mentions about a hundred of these, many still extant and some defunct.

 

[hosemonkey]

Josephites in Missouri

Hedrickites in Missouri
Rigdonites/Bickertonites Pennsylvania
Strangites Wisconsin, New Mexico, Missouri
Brighamites in Utah and
Polygamist groups (Brighamites) around Utah, Arizona and Texas.
The groups that slit during Smiths life are out of business.

Bottom line:
Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a liar, not to mention adultery, child molesting and treason. Because the mormon organization is built upon Joseph Smith and NOT upon Jesus Christ, it is fraudulent and evil and those who follow it are duped and defrauded. Because the mormon organization is not founded upon Jesus Christ, it is doomed to failure and dissolution. Mormons have the audacity to preach that no one can enter heaven without the certificate of Joseph Smith. They have placed Joseph Smith above Jesus Christ Himself. If that is not blasphemy, I do not know what is.

 

[SteveVH]

Except that Paul boasted in the new testament and joseph used that boast for his own sermon from which critics past one particular part without context.

It can be debatable if Paul started his own church among the gentiles. The church in Jeruselum might have been a tad different from the church among the gentiles. I understand that their were differences between Paul and James.

It is not debatable. I find it amazing that you would even say that one Church “might have been a tad different” because of differences between Paul and James. The differences were decided by Peter and scripture verifies this. I am on the road as I write this and don’t have any reference material handy, but Acts pretty well answers any question of authority. You have no evidence to back up your statement and resort to " can be" and “might have been” which is nothing but wishful thinking.

 

[why_me]

The LDS Church is:
Losing membership in Utah (except thru tremendous birth rate).
Needing to abandon missions in Europe (due to lack of success).
Needing to increase missions in Third World Countries (I think we know why)

New York, February 12, 2010 – The National Council of Churches’ 2010 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches reports membership gains in the Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Assemblies of God, among others.

The 78th annual edition of the Yearbook also reports a continuing decline in membership of virtually all mainline denominations
…

1. The Catholic Church, 68,115,001 members, up 1.49 percent.
2. Southern Baptist Convention,16,228,438 members, down 0.24percent.
3. The United Methodist Church, 7,853,987 members, down 0.98 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,974,041 members, up 1.71 percent.
5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members, no membership updates reported.

ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

It doesn’t look like it. The mormon church still has growth in the US.

 

[why_me]

Bottom line:
Mormons have the audacity to preach that no one can enter heaven without the certificate of Joseph Smith. They have placed Joseph Smith above Jesus Christ Himself. If that is not blasphemy, I do not know what is.

I have never heard this discussed in mormon services. I know where you got it from, but it is not so. It is not a part of Mormon beliefs at all.

Criticism
Critics charge that since Joseph claimed (or it was claimed in his behalf) the right to “approve whether or not someone gets into heaven,” this arrogates to a mortal a right properly reserved for God and Jesus Christ.
Some critics have even charged that “Mormons worship Joseph Smith.”
See also: Source(s) of the criticism

Response
See also: “Turn to Joseph to gain salvation”? and Hymns to Joseph Smith?
The criticism originates with statements made by Brigham Young and Orson Hyde that are recorded in the Journal of Discourses. Statements made by these early church leaders are removed from their context in order to make it appear that a belief in Joseph Smith rather than Jesus Christ is the key to salvation.

When read in context, Brigham Young’s statement and intent become clear:

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith… I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy…he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now… It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption.[1]
Clearly, Joseph’s role is to function under the “direction…of the Son of God,” and the primary goal is the salvation of all who will accept any degree of Christ and Joseph’s witness of Him.

Similarly, critics extract the second sentence of the following quote from Brigham Young, while ignoring the sentence preceeding it (emphasis added):

I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist.[2]
**It is not a novel idea to have mortal prophets involved in the post-mortal judgment. At the Last Supper, Jesus himself taught that:

Ye [the apostles] are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Luke 22:28-30; see also Matthew 19:28.) **
A similar promise to participate in the judgment of those among whom they were called to serve was given to the twelve Nephite Disciples (see 1 Nephi 12:9-10). This principle is also reiterated in modern revelation (see D&C 29:12).

Since the Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Joseph was called as an apostle and prophet (see D&C 21:1) with the same authority as that given to Peter, James, John, and others, they do not think it strange that he will likewise play a role in judgment. The witness of a prophet will always be brought against those who did not accept his witness of Christ (see Matthew 10:40; John 5:45-47).

Conclusion
Joseph’s participation in the judgment (at the command and sufferance of Jesus) is no more or less than the role assigned to the Lord’s apostles at the Last Supper.

No mortal’s role in the judgment supercedes the role given to Jesus, as the Book of Mormon bears witness:

…the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.(2 Nephi 9:41.)
Those who condemn Joseph on these grounds must also condemn Peter and the rest of the Twelve.

Members of the Church reserve their worship for God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost. They do not worship Joseph Smith or any other mortal, save Jesus only. Joseph Smith’s position in LDS thought is analogous to the role which Peter or Paul plays in traditional creedal Christianity.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith%27s_status_in_LDS_belief

Notice what is underlined in the text.

 

[why_me]

You follow Joseph Smith. We do not follow Paul.

All christians follow the teachings of Paul as found in the new testament. Paul was also a revolutiionary as he preached among the pagans and gave direction for the church. Most of catholic moral code is based on Paul as is Mormon moral code. Mormons do not follow Joseph Smith but they do believe that he was a prophet.

 

[lax16]

New York, February 12, 2010 – The National Council of Churches’ 2010 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches reports membership gains in the Catholic Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Assemblies of God, among others.

The 78th annual edition of the Yearbook also reports a continuing decline in membership of virtually all mainline denominations
…

1. The Catholic Church, 68,115,001 members, up 1.49 percent.
2. Southern Baptist Convention,16,228,438 members, down 0.24percent.
3. The United Methodist Church, 7,853,987 members, down 0.98 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,974,041 members, up 1.71 percent.
5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members, no membership updates reported.

ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

It doesn’t look like it. The mormon church still has growth in the US.

I responded to you saying that the LDS church is successful in Utah, not the U.S.