Why Accept Joseph Smith?

[RebeccaJ]

Don’t you have to, y’know, actually VISIT a shrine, and use it to meditate, or something? What I just described isn’t that. It’s just the place I keep things that should be kept behind glass because they are old and valuable.

And because I don’t want the cat knocking 'em over.

Because, well…they are old and valuable.

If I have anything at all like a shrine, I think it would be my bookshelf in my bedroom that has all the ‘reading’ copies of the books I’m trying to collect first editions for. I’m not being very successful at the collecting part, but do you have ANY idea what a first edition “Scarlet Letter” goes for? (shudder.) Shoot, I saw a first edition of “The Hobbit” for sale by Baumans…$75,000 bucks. Huck Finn first edition…$30,000

I’d have to win the lottery in order to have a proper shrine, I think. which of course will be a tad difficult since I don’t buy tickets.

Yay! Books!

I collect signed books, since I worked in the publishing industry so long I have a few quirky items. A wide range of non-related authors and genres. Some leatherbound mormon titles. I keep thinking of putting these up for sale at Deseret’s online auction site. Or maybe take them down to Bench Books and see what he’ll give me for them.

For a while I kept them with the various things mormons gave me (work related), on a shelf at work. It was definitely a shrine to the weird (in an enjoyable way to all, even the mormons). It was awesome. Now it is all in boxes.

First editions of some titles are very expensive. Maybe you’ll get lucky.

Yes, a religious shrine is usually used to as a quiet place to pray. I was just thinking I need to add holy water to mine, after thinking it was “perfect”.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad;6404544:

I can’t help it if you don’t like Joe enough to talk to him.

Diana, we are quite aware our saints were men and women.

Maybe so, but I can tell you I’ve been in enough LDS homes, including that of my family, to tell you they have shrines. Most often they are to mormon temples. You should get the clown noses out. Then any Catholic who happened to be in your home would really wonder.

No, I remember the anti-Catholicism in this regard. I also know as a Catholic what I see in LDS homes…shrines. Maybe you don’t pray to them, but you can’t tell me they are never in your thoughts while you do pray.

Oh yes I can. I can tell you precisely that. We do NOT think of Joseph Smith when we are praying to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. I can certainly tell you that my Joseph Smith bookends never enter my mind when I kneel by my bedside at night. In fact, Joseph Smith doesn’t enter my thoughts or prayers at all unless I’m asking about something he said or taught, specifically–and then I’m asking God about something JS wrote. I’m not asking JS a thing. Is it so incredible to you that there’s a group of people who do NOT do the Catholic veneration religious shrine thing? I mean, we really don’t?

That’s hardly fair, y’know. At least I get the difference between veneration…between latria, dulia and hyper-dulia. I understand it…I just don’t DO it.

Yes, but I know the songs you sing, and teach your children. The parades with children dressed up as “saints”, aka pioneers. I know that you don’t see it as veneration, but as a Catholic, I see that it is. You just don’t call it that.

We also dress up as pilgrims and turkeys on Thanksgiving, and make vegetable costumes for the school plays. Does that mean we ‘venerate’ celery? C’mon, Rebecca. there is a LOT more to ‘veneration’ than simply dressing up like great great grandma in a handcart so you can sing “Pioneer Children walk, and walk, and walk, and walk, and walk…” and get cupcakes at the party.

[Honestly, it would be more accurate to say mormonism sticks with me more than it leaves me. Otherwise, I wouldn’t know these customs at all.

One can only be anathema from the truth, which isn’t mormonism.

Sweetie, if you think that what WE do is ‘veneration’ in the Catholic sense, then Mormonism hasn’t ‘stuck’ with you AT all.

Are you telling me that Catholic veneration does NOT include meditation, candles, shrines at which one worships, including prayers during which one petitions the venerated person or relic (or former owner of same, at least) to intercede for you with God?

Because from what I’ve seen, it certainly includes most, if not all, of those things. What we do includes none of those things. According to the Catholic sources I’ve just polled, what you call ‘veneration’ is restricted to dulia…or that special reverence applied to saints. It’s not ‘honor,’ such as we give those we dress like in pageants, or those whose busts we have in our homes, like Mozart. It is reserved to saints…and includes prayers for intercession, shrines, worshipful meditation at those shrines–a whole host of things that you do for and with the saints that we Mormons simply do not do.

For anybody at all.

“latria” is reserved, from what I read, for the specific worship of God Himself. Yes. We do do that—also for God Himself.

But all our veneration, latria, dulia, hyperdulia and everything else is reserved for God the Father, through His Son, Jesus Christ.

We HONOR many people, but honoring is not worshiping, and honoring is not venerating, and honoring is not praying to. It is simply remembering with respect–when we happen to think about it.

Veneration, it seems to me, would be a deliberate choice to offer such veneration; that is, you choose to go to a shrine, light a candle, meditate, pray for intercession to, whatever it is you do.

It does not include a chatski you have to dust once a week, that looks good on the bookshelf, that you got as a souvenir from your last Temple trip–and is as likely to be put in your next yard sale for a nickle as not.

[/quote]

 

[RebeccaJ]

ok for you…I just think you should pay better attention to your LDS surroundings. Otherwise, you’re sounding rather atheist.

Veneration can take many forms. There is not a rule, or set of things one must do.

Certainly for a Catholic, prayer is integral.

 

[why_me]

Try reading something objective on the subject. Mormons are not the only ones to have ‘recorded’ this piece of history. There is much, that the Mormon apologetics ignores to mention in it’s explanation. Martyrs did not go down fighting.

Nice dodge. I gave you a list of quotations by people who witnessed what Jospeh said about going to prison and you give me nothing in return except your above response. You claimed that Joseph did not know that he was going to die. I gave you quotations attributed to him that showed that he did.

PS: the gun was smuggled into the prison. It might even have been given to him by the jailer. I want to see your reaction if you watched your brother gunned down by a mob of black painted faces. I six shooter would not do the trick but…

 

[why_me]

bolding mine

John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, made these statements concerning the death of Joseph Smith:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket.... I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs....

"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He,** however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door**, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. **I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." **(History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)

Nice try but here is an eyewitness account by a non-mormon:

*Setting the Stage for Murder
Non-Mormon Colonel John Hay, an American poet and statesman, recorded the day’s details leading up to the murder, shedding light on the mood of the mob that infamous day. He wrote:

[The mobsters] followed their leaders off on the road to Carthage, with rather vague intentions. They were annoyed at the prospect of their picnic coming so readily to a close, at losing the fun of sacking Nauvoo, at having to go home without material for a single romance… These trudged along under the fierce summer sun of the prairies towards the town where the cause of all the trouble and confusion of the last few years awaited them.

The farther they walked the more the idea impressed itself upon them that now was the time to finish the matter totally. The unavowed design of the leaders communicated itself magnetically to the men, until the entire company became fused into one mass of bloodthirsty energy…

…As the avengers came in sight of the mean-looking building that held their prey, the sleeping tiger that lurks in every human heart sprang up in theirs, and they quickened their pace to a run. There was no need of orders,-no possibility of checking them now. The guards were hustled away from the door, good-naturedly resisting until they were carefully disarmed.162 *

Interjecting into Hay’s narrative, the view from inside the jail finds the mob rushing up the stairs to the room where Joseph and his friends were. It was "at this point, Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham’s large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor’s cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door…Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians…Joseph, seeing there was no safety in the room, and no doubt thinking that it would save the lives of his brethren in the room if he could get out, turned calmly from the door, dropped his pistol on the floor and sprang into the window when two balls pierced him from the door, and one entered his right breast from without, and he fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. ‘O Lord, my God!’"163

The idea that Joseph tried to escape through the window to save the lives of Richards and Taylor is in harmony with one of the reasons he went to Carthage to begin with.164

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom

I think that that non-member account is very interesting, don’t you think? Any comments about Hays account? It sounds like a fun time for the mob…

 

[seanflynn]

Even when you carefully show them the flaws of Joseph Smith, they remain completely bias for him. I don’t understand it. It’s like they care more about protecting a lie then surrendering to truth. QUOTE]

If you trade the name “Joseph Smith” in that first sentence for anything else that people believe in strongly, it would still be true. Read it as “Luther,” “Relativism,” “Abortion,” or anything else you disagree with, and the formula works. I assume some people would think it about us Catholics.

Surrender, even to the truth, is difficult for humans because of our pride. People, Mormons and Catholics included, have troube seperating their self-identity from their core values. An individual’s core values are a choice, despite the Truth being objective.

 

[why_me]

The founder of the Holy Catholic Church, Jesus Of Nazareth
“Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”

Joseph Smith Inventor of mormonism.
'He,** however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door**, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged."
**I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died." **(History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)

And yet, we have a blood thirsty mob storming the prison (see the Hay’s account I posted above)…but hey, that is okay. No problem with that at all, right? And here we have Joseph Smith, knowing that he could face death leaving the protection of Nauvoo to save the city and people from destruction.

But hey, I suppose that he was an awful guy and deserved his fate…

 

[why_me]

I have already apologized about mistaking you for another poster, and reacting badly. I’ll do so here again.

As to the Journal of Discourses…it’s a 'secondary source." Perhaps even a 'tertiary source."

What it is, is a collection of speeches given by several leaders of the church at disparate meetings. They were taken down by listeners, sent to England and published there. Most of the men who gave those speeches were never aware that those speeches WERE taken down, much less published, until they had copies of the journals in their hands. NONE of them were able to proofread those speeches for accuracy.

This is often overlooked by critics and mormon haters. They treat the Journal of Discourses like it was manna from heaven overlooking the wonderful things that are also in these journals. But they have no idea about the history of the journals and how they came to be.

 

[why_me]

While the minutiae of mormon heresy may be important to some, my focus is on the fact that mormonism asserts that the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself has failed and needed to be “restored” by a New York state thimble rigger. Won’t wash. False religion, false “prophet”.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Nice dodge. I gave you a list of quotations by people who witnessed what Jospeh said about going to prison and you give me nothing in return except your above response. You claimed that Joseph did not know that he was going to die. I gave you quotations attributed to him that showed that he did.

Dodge? You had asked my opinion of some scriptures referencing the ‘swords’ and even said you were interested in seeing my response, as if I would have none. I responded with an explanation and you evidently decided to ‘dodge’ the issue any further and move on.

Cutting out ‘select’ quotes from the times does not tell the whole story, so no they are not a fair depiction of the events. We know there was a ‘power’ struggle for Mormon leadership after his death and we also have to assume there were biased opinions of the events, based on vested interests of those who spoke or wrote.

PS: the gun was smuggled into the prison. It might even have been given to him by the jailer. I want to see your reaction if you watched your brother gunned down by a mob of black painted faces. I six shooter would not do the trick but…

Oh, was a Mormon elder the smuggler jailer there?

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, ‘Would any of you like to have this?’ Brother Joseph immediately replied, ‘Yes, give it to me,’ whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket… I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs…

“I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 100, 102 & 103)

Apparently a six shooter wasn’t enough because of the size of the mob, but there have been criminals in history who escaped on much less, like a bar of soap carved out to look like a gun.

The whole point comes down to ‘martyrdom’. No martyr, following Christ’s example, went down killing some of his attackers first. Christ even said He could have called down legions of angels if He asked. Tell me anyone of the first and second century who did so?

 

[lax16]

And yet, we have a blood thirsty mob storming the prison (see the Hay’s account I posted above)…but hey, that is okay. No problem with that at all, right? And here we have Joseph Smith, knowing that he could face death leaving the protection of Nauvoo to save the city and people from destruction.

But hey, I suppose that he was an awful guy and deserved his fate…

whyme - Do you know the story of Saint Oliver Plunkett?

He was born on November 1, 1625 in Ireland. He was ordained a (Catholic) priest in 1654 in Ireland during a time when Catholics were expelled, their land taken away, and priests were outlawed from administering the sacraments .

Plunkett went to Rome and became a professor of theology, then returned to Ireland once anti-Catholic tensions were eased. As archbishop of Armagh, he set about reorganizing the ravaged (Catholic) church and built schools to teach the young and the clergy whom he found to be ‘ignorant in moral theology and controversies’.

New persecution began in 1673 and Plunkett went into hiding, refusing to be exiled by the government. He wrote many letters showing his determination to stay with his people and remain a faithful shephard.

In 1679, Plunkett was arrested and falsely accused of treason, and imprisoned in Dublin Castle. Taken to London, he was found guilty of high treason and was unable to defend himself because he was not given enough time to bring his own witnesses from Ireland.
Oliver Plunkett publicly forgave all those responsible for his death on July 1, 1681. He was dragged through the streets until almost dead, then hanged and quartered (disembowled).

He was beatified in 1920 and canonized a saint in 1975.

Why am I telling you this? First of all, because it is Saint Patrick’s Day and we have him (and the Good Lord) to thank for the Catholic faith in Ireland and for great saints like Oliver Plunkett!

Secondly, to point out, that throughout history, people have been falsely accused of treason, etc and have gone to their deaths as martyrs, forgiving those who persecute them. The Catholic Church recognizes many such people as saints.

Joseph Smith is/was not the first man to die at the hands of his enemies (and certainly not the last).

 

[lax16]

This is often overlooked by critics and mormon haters. They treat the Journal of Discourses like it was manna from heaven overlooking the wonderful things that are also in these journals. But they have no idea about the history of the journals and how they came to be.

Well then, enlighten us.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well then, enlighten us.

Here is a link to a letter from the first presidency concerning the journal of discourses.

utlm.org/images/journalofdiscoursesfpletter.gif

“faithfully and fully accomplished” appear to mean that someone reviewed all of this before it was published.

 

[hosemonkey]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?defid=753284

thimble rigger: One who cheats by thimblerigging, or tricks of legerdemain. 1. Also known as a shell game: A game, usually involving gambling, in which a person hides a small object underneath one of three nutshells, thimbles, or cups, then shuffles them about on a flat surface while spectators try to guess the final location of the object. Also called thimblerig. 2. A fraud or deception perpetrated by shifting conspicuous things to hide something else.

Are you attempting to compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ and His apostles? Joseph Smith the con-man? Joseph Smith the plagarizer of other men’s writings? Joseph Smith the seducer of other men’s wives? Joseph Smith the reluctant “martyr”? Joseph Smith the purveyor of false prophecies? You are right in one respect though, Joseph Smith’s life and career certainly smells of fish.

 

[sablouwho]

I was a little surprised by the comparison too, but as I reread Why Me’s comments, I speculated that he did not understand the pejorative connotation of the term thimble rigger. Thus I think the “comparison” was made by Why Me without realizing that term’s meaning. IOW, I think it was an “honest mistake”.

Just my two cents.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?defid=753284

 

[lax16]

Here is a link to a letter from the first presidency concerning the journal of discourses.

utlm.org/images/journalofdiscoursesfpletter.gif

“faithfully and fully accomplished” appear to mean that someone reviewed all of this before it was published.

And is available at Deseret Books (owned by the LDS Church) online as a boxed set for $599.99. It received 5 stars by two people who reviewed the books.

 

[lax16]

hosemonkey;6404560:

A new york state thimble rigger? It reminds that Christ was a carpenter, certainly getting his hands dirty. And what about the fishemen that were His apostles? They must have smelled of fish for sure. And the tax collector? One of the most hated professions at that time…It seems that Christ, nor God was a good judge of character if we base it on professions for that time period in the new testament.

How can you say that Christ nor God was a good judge of character??!!

 

[why_me]

Well then, enlighten us.

Originally Posted by dianaiad
I have already apologized about mistaking you for another poster, and reacting badly. I’ll do so here again.

As to the Journal of Discourses…it’s a 'secondary source." Perhaps even a 'tertiary source."

What it is, is a collection of speeches given by several leaders of the church at disparate meetings. They were taken down by listeners, sent to England and published there. Most of the men who gave those speeches were never aware that those speeches WERE taken down, much less published, until they had copies of the journals in their hands. NONE of them were able to proofread those speeches for accuracy.

I hope that this helps.

 

[why_me]

why me;6408947:

How can you say that Christ nor God was a good judge of character??!!

The original apostles were not the greatest human beings that walked the earth when they were chosen. And Paul, was a persecutor of christians before his conversion. He seems to choose people with flaws.

 

[why_me]

Here is a link to a letter from the first presidency concerning the journal of discourses.

utlm.org/images/journalofdiscoursesfpletter.gif

“faithfully and fully accomplished” appear to mean that someone reviewed all of this before it was published.

And this proves what? The journal of discourses are valuable but as diana said they do have their problems because they are based on notes of people who heard the talks. And critics like yourself love to pull out random quotations to score points and usually these quotations are out of context.

Reread your link slowly and you will see that they were not reviewed but the letter is addressing Watt’s prior work as being faithful and accomplished.

The lds church did not hide the journals. In fact, they can be purchased from the bookstore or ordered.