W
Walking_Home
Guest
With all due respect Fr. Jack—Card. Arinze expesses the views of the Church. If our own priests are unwilling to acknowledge that—I can see the Church will continue to suffer.
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With all due respect Fr. Jack—Card. Arinze expesses the views of the Church. If our own priests are unwilling to acknowledge that—I can see the Church will continue to suffer.
C
Cari
Guest
It’s like what I’m constantly telling my non-Catholic mother,
“We don’t come for the music. We don’t come for the homily. We don’t come for the socializing. We’re here for the Eucharist.”
Why hold hands with my neighbor to symbolize unity? I’m about to go be fed with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord and Savior. I’ve got actual unity waiting for me- I don’t need symbols.
“We don’t come for the music. We don’t come for the homily. We don’t come for the socializing. We’re here for the Eucharist.”
Why hold hands with my neighbor to symbolize unity? I’m about to go be fed with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord and Savior. I’ve got actual unity waiting for me- I don’t need symbols.
F
fjacks
Guest
Cardinal Arinze does not always speak for “the church”. Not even the Pope always speaks for the church. He just wrote a book entitled Jesus of Nazareth in which he relates his personal beliefs about the Christ. He explicitly states that all are welcome to criticize the contents of the book.
The church is the Body of Christ with all its members. While the hierarchy has an indispensable role to play in the life of the church, it is not all by itself “the church”. While the church is not a democracy, its members are certainly free to express their faith and their views within very broad limits. We wouldn’t want to have “thought police” in the church, would we?
The church is the Body of Christ with all its members. While the hierarchy has an indispensable role to play in the life of the church, it is not all by itself “the church”. While the church is not a democracy, its members are certainly free to express their faith and their views within very broad limits. We wouldn’t want to have “thought police” in the church, would we?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
S
scylla
Guest
Your right Father, we do not need the thought police.
Since Jesus is the only judge we shouldn’t be constantly in judgement of each other and should concentrate on our own salvation first.
I do this in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the center of focus for our Salvation since Jesus is the Eucharist.
There is nothing wrong with being cheerful or enjoying the proper presentation of the Mass, yet we must be careful to not allow individualism flourish as we need full participation not just a soloist or dancer seeking attention.
I think you agree with me that we need to be in unity when we worship God, I prefer the Divine Mercy Chaplet to the Rosary and Bible Study to singing. This is where I enjoy my individualism in the universality of the Catholic Church.
In Christ
Scylla
Since Jesus is the only judge we shouldn’t be constantly in judgement of each other and should concentrate on our own salvation first.
I do this in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the center of focus for our Salvation since Jesus is the Eucharist.
There is nothing wrong with being cheerful or enjoying the proper presentation of the Mass, yet we must be careful to not allow individualism flourish as we need full participation not just a soloist or dancer seeking attention.
I think you agree with me that we need to be in unity when we worship God, I prefer the Divine Mercy Chaplet to the Rosary and Bible Study to singing. This is where I enjoy my individualism in the universality of the Catholic Church.
In Christ
Scylla
B
buffalo
Guest
The Vatican has the right and duty to regulate the Liturgy.
From RS:
THE REGULATION OF THE SACRED LITURGY
[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]
[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.
[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].
Cardinal Arinze is the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship.
From RS:
THE REGULATION OF THE SACRED LITURGY
[14.] “The regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, which rests specifically with the Apostolic See and, according to the norms of law, with the Bishop.[34]
[15.] The Roman Pontiff, “the Vicar of Christ and the Pastor of the universal Church on earth, by virtue of his supreme office enjoys full, immediate and universal ordinary power, which he may always freely exercise”[35], also by means of communication with the pastors and with the members of the flock.
[16.] “It pertains to the Apostolic See to regulate the Sacred Liturgy of the universal Church, to publish the liturgical books and to grant the recognitio for their translation into vernacular languages, as well as to ensure that the liturgical regulations, especially those governing the celebration of the most exalted celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, are everywhere faithfully observed”.[36]
[17.] “The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments attends to those matters that pertain to the Apostolic See as regards the regulation and promotion of the Sacred Liturgy, and especially the Sacraments, with due regard for the competence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It fosters and enforces sacramental discipline, especially as regards their validity and their licit celebration”. Finally, it “carefully seeks to ensure that the liturgical regulations are observed with precision, and that abuses are prevented or eliminated whenever they are detected”[37]. In this regard, according to the tradition of the universal Church, pre-eminent solicitude is accorded the celebration of Holy Mass, and also to the worship that is given to the Holy Eucharist even outside Mass.
[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].
Cardinal Arinze is the head of the Congregation for Divine Worship.
B
BostonMassGoer
Guest
Hello everyone
I came to this forum specifically to learn more about clapping in church. You see, my parish is fortunate to have a pastor who is particularly aware of the many people who serve the parish along with him. Unfortunately, he often gives them such credit *during *the Mass, which of course, instigates applause. While I think it’s wonderful that he feels very appreciative to those who lend their time and talents, I’m not so thrilled that he’s calling our attention to it during the Mass, or that he is setting the example that it’s okay to applaud during Mass.
I really appreciate the above quote, because it shows us where the focus needs to lie. It’s such a visual reminder for us all!
It’s just so awkward to sit there not clapping while everyone else is doing so. Even worse with standing ovations (our parish choir is particularly wonderful so this happens from time to time). Personally, I find that the choir does, indeed, do its job in moving me to deeper prayer. But then I am all distracted by the applause (firstly, because I’m worriedly anticipating that it will follow the particularly poignant final note, and secondly, because it is loud and takes me away from my prayer).
Our pastor is celebrating his final Masses with us next weekend, as he is going to another parish. While I’ve mostly enjoyed his ministry to us, I’ve been learning more and more recently that he tends to take it upon himself to change things here and there that are *not *to be changed (the Magnificat prayer book is quite enlightening regarding these things). Because of this, I’m looking forward to a fresh new start.
But the very large obstacle in the near future is the ENORMOUS amount of applause he will surely receive, since: a) he is well-admired because of his pastoral gifts, and b) he has taught us that applause is not only permitted in church, but encouraged. I’m almost considering going to another parish next week because the applause will drive me crazy. Oh, and the standing ovation, too. Because that will surely follow…and if I don’t stand??? I know it’s better to honor God by staying seated (rather than honoring our pastor during Mass), but it’s still awfully awkward and could be taken the wrong way.
Ugh.
S
Sheeniac
Guest
That’s a tough one, Boston! I think I would go, and when the congregation does the standing ovation, you should stand in a show of love and respect for your priest. But I think I would clasp my hands in front of me as if in prayer.
And smile, smile, smile. Heck - try beaming if you can.
I never clap in mass - after mass… well, no, not then either. I’m in the Real Presence and my God deserves the attention and respect.
And smile, smile, smile. Heck - try beaming if you can.
I never clap in mass - after mass… well, no, not then either. I’m in the Real Presence and my God deserves the attention and respect.
J
JReducation
Guest
I agree with Fr. Jack. Even though there is a natural flow to the liturgy that is to be followed as prescribed in the sacramentary, there is nothing that prohibits enthusiasm and joy in the liturgy.
The self-professed orthodox movement (with lower case “o”) would like to tell the Church how to worship. Only the Holy See and the local Conference of Bishops have this authority.
Obviously, the liturgy is not a football game. There are appropriate times and reasons for clapping, holding hands, lifting arms, etc. and there are other moments when they are more of a distraction.
As to the pastor or celebrant calling attention to the contributions made by the choir or those who put together a special liturgy, such as the Easter Vigil and people applauding, I see this response as an act of charity and justice. The congregation is demonstrating its appreciation to those who worked hard to make the liturgy beautiful.
Every parish where I have lived usually does this just prior to the blessing. This is usually the time when announcements are made too.
I guess if we can stop for a moment to hear the week’s announcements, we can also show appreciation for the different ministries that contribute to beautiful liturgy.
As to clapping during certain hymns or holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, there is nothing in the Sacramentary that prohibits this. It is very common in many parishes especially when you have a very charismatic community. On the other hand, no one needs to fill obliged to clap during a hymn or hold hands during the Lord’s prayer. There is nothing in the sacramentary that says you have to do so.
The point is that this is neither an abuse nor an obligation. An abuse would be to turn the liturgy into a football game, as Pope Benedict suggested when he was Cardinal Ratzinger.
Even the Pope enjoys the clapping and the cheering of the crowds as he walks down the center aisle of St. Peter’s basilica at the end of mass. Did anyone see the Easter Vigil on TV? The crowds stood on chairs, clapped, waved and cheered. Pope Benedict grinned and waved as he walked down the aisle. He didn’t look like a priest who disapproved of the attention or the chaos that occurs as a Pope leaves the Basilica. He looked like a loving and cheerful bishop enjoying his flock.
Fr. Jack is right. We do not need a thought police to tell us when we should cheer, applaud or show enthusiasm at worship.
JR
L
LRThunder
Guest
On the one hand, we don’t need a thought or liturgical police,ie pharisees.
On the other hand, neither do we need those playing with the liturgy like it’s their toy. The more one plays with the liturgy, the greater the chance they start playing with doctrine. That’s the real danger where liturgical abuses come in.
I agree that we shouldn’t go to Mass with a liturgical police badge on, but as some have stated before, we have the right to have Mass celebrated in a reverent manner.
On the other hand, neither do we need those playing with the liturgy like it’s their toy. The more one plays with the liturgy, the greater the chance they start playing with doctrine. That’s the real danger where liturgical abuses come in.
I agree that we shouldn’t go to Mass with a liturgical police badge on, but as some have stated before, we have the right to have Mass celebrated in a reverent manner.
M
MarieVeronica
Guest
Clapping and cheering takes away from the solemnity of the Mass. It also draws attention away from God… and ON to the source (for example, the Choir) of the applause. This is not appropriate during a time when we are present, to worship God.
The Mass is not a “performance” of some kind. It is a Sacred Event in which we worship and adore our Creator… and where we enter into the Sacrifice of Jesus, our Redeemer. God bless.
The Mass is not a “performance” of some kind. It is a Sacred Event in which we worship and adore our Creator… and where we enter into the Sacrifice of Jesus, our Redeemer. God bless.
A
Anthony02
Guest
In the context of the Mass, these actions (minus the holding of hands) is not permitted because it is distracting to a lot of people. It’s more cultural so you could very well see these kind of actions in other countries where it is part of their culture. Though they may be unifying, we need to be mindful that we are not unified in eachother, rather we are unified in Christ present in the Most Holy Eucharist. Holding hands is acceptable, but not preferred for that reason.
F
fjacks
Guest
There is no rubric which addresses clapping, cheering, dancing, or hand holding. The directions (rubrics) printed in the missal concern the priest and his interactions with the assembly and God during the Mass.
There has always been a lot of clapping and cheering that has gone in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome even in association with Mass. Individual prelates, perhaps even the Pope, may not be enthusiastic about this practice but there is little they can do about it since these are spontaneous responses by the people.
Holding hands during the Our Father serves to visibly affirm the fact that this is a communal prayer rather than a merely private one as so many regard it. When I am holding the hand of Christ himself in the person of my brother or sister, we join with Christ in praying to Our as opposed to My Father. The reluctance to officially approve this symbolic act which has become very popular in many places is that it arose from the practice of “mere” priests and laity. There are members of the hierarchy who are uncomfortable with that. However, given an opportunity to forbid it they refrained.
There has always been a lot of clapping and cheering that has gone in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome even in association with Mass. Individual prelates, perhaps even the Pope, may not be enthusiastic about this practice but there is little they can do about it since these are spontaneous responses by the people.
Holding hands during the Our Father serves to visibly affirm the fact that this is a communal prayer rather than a merely private one as so many regard it. When I am holding the hand of Christ himself in the person of my brother or sister, we join with Christ in praying to Our as opposed to My Father. The reluctance to officially approve this symbolic act which has become very popular in many places is that it arose from the practice of “mere” priests and laity. There are members of the hierarchy who are uncomfortable with that. However, given an opportunity to forbid it they refrained.
P
Phemie
Guest
Holding hands at the Our Father as a sign of community emphasizes the wrong moment of the Mass, the ultimate moment of ‘community’ is at Communion.
A
AUserName
Guest
Has there been an official pronouncement on the subject of clapping? I can’t find one. How did people respond to a medieval morality play? These were done right in the Church, but certainly not in the middle of Mass. Perhaps the plays were followed with silence? Perhaps not? Certainly clapping is culturally scandalous in the Western Church, because it’s a focus on man, instead of God in the Tabernacle. There is to be NO emotionalism, which distracts from the worship of God. The idea that clapping is a sign of excitement / enthusiasm may be true, but it is just more evidence that clapping is inappropriate in Mass. One mustn’t assume his enthusiasm should be inflicted on others, when they are trying to pray.
J
JReducation
Guest
As one who has been part of the Franciscan family since 1971 and spent the years form 1971 to 1983 studying Franciscan Mysticism and Theology, I’m going to have to correct you on this one.
The Christmas pageant was introduced into the Catholic mass by St. Francis of Assisi. He set up the first living Christmas pageant in the chapel of his friary to help the peasants who did not understand the Latin Gospel or who could not read. It took place as the Gospel was read by one of the Brother-Priests. It was often followed by clapping and great enthusiasm from the congregation. Though Francis did not intend to bring Broadway into the liturgy, he did not stop the spontaneous response of the crowd who witnessed these pageants.
Francis of Assisi also introduced the Stations of the Cross into the Church. They were acted out. Again, there was spontaneous applaud and enthusiasm on the part of the crowd. Francis did not stop their enthusiasm.
His intention was to help the faithful come together as a community to worship Christ. He knew that the peasants did not speak Latin or read. He wanted to bring them into the celebration.
If anyone wants to argue theology with St. Francis, be my guest. Personally, I think it would be silly to argue with the man whom the Church called The Mirror of Perfection at his canonization and whom the Church still venerates as the Perfect Immitation of Christ.
I believe that Francis understood the unity that comes through the Eucharist, but he also understood that union must be at two levels, the sacramental and the fraternal. Fraternal unity takes place within our space and time, with the gestures and resources that we have. The sacramenal union takes place within the Divine space and time. It transcends our present state. Both are essential for the building of the Church.
As I said, St. Francis did not want to introduce Broadway into the liturgy, but he did not see the harm of enthusiasm, joy and spontaneous responses to the movement of the Spirit during worship. Francis himself danced in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament and played musical instruments while doing so. Many people don’t know that he was a minstrel.
JR
H
hasikelee
Guest
tomch, I have some Baptist friends, and I’ve attended their services, so I think I know what you’re trying to understand. Compared to some of the events I’ve attended with them, the Mass is very quiet and solemn. To someone who was raised stamping and clapping, this can seem almost horrible.
Although our Church is universal and will follow one sacred, solemn form of the Mass, there are still differences throughout Christ’s Body of worshipers. Just as we come in all different shapes and sizes, so do parishes. Perhaps you could look around for a more extraverted parish that will help connect you to that celebratory worship.
For example, you might not find hand-holding or clapping, but the Cathedral in my city has such inspiring music and ceremonies that your heart will be lifted and invigorated. I’ve also seen parishes without an organist, who chant instead of sing, and everyone is quiet.
J
johnnydigit
Guest
the Holy Mass is very sacred and it is full of specific details that were intentionally made part of the Mass. every single little part goes back to Scripture and Tradition, and they point to something very specific and theological.
the problem is that most people don’t understand the deep theology and why things are done they way they are. now most people aren’t expected to learn these things and that’s why we have our priests and the Church to learn these things for us and guide us.
=====================
a simple example: the priest isn’t supposed to leave the sanctuary (the area around the altar) during Mass (except in rare cases, giving peace to family at a funeral). now someone who doesn’t know any better might say, “ah what’s the big deal? if he wants to walk around during the homily, it’s a good thing! it makes him seem more friendly!”
now what this person doesn’t know is that this custom goes back to the Jewish custom of only priests being able to enter the Holy of Holies. it was so holy, that no one else would be able to enter. the sanctuary is like our Holy of Holies, except that there isn’t a curtain covering everything, so it is fitting that the priest remain there.
====================
you see, the Mass is full of these things, and unless you take the time to learn about them yourself, trust that the Church knows what it is doing and does it for a reason. this is the authority we are called to obey.
regarding clapping after Mass and such,
General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
*45. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times.
54
Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within
the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the
conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after
Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts.
Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in
the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to
carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.
the problem is that most people don’t understand the deep theology and why things are done they way they are. now most people aren’t expected to learn these things and that’s why we have our priests and the Church to learn these things for us and guide us.
=====================
a simple example: the priest isn’t supposed to leave the sanctuary (the area around the altar) during Mass (except in rare cases, giving peace to family at a funeral). now someone who doesn’t know any better might say, “ah what’s the big deal? if he wants to walk around during the homily, it’s a good thing! it makes him seem more friendly!”
now what this person doesn’t know is that this custom goes back to the Jewish custom of only priests being able to enter the Holy of Holies. it was so holy, that no one else would be able to enter. the sanctuary is like our Holy of Holies, except that there isn’t a curtain covering everything, so it is fitting that the priest remain there.
====================
you see, the Mass is full of these things, and unless you take the time to learn about them yourself, trust that the Church knows what it is doing and does it for a reason. this is the authority we are called to obey.
regarding clapping after Mass and such,
General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
*45. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times.
54
Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within
the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the
conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after
Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts.
Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in
the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to
carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.
J
Jimsdun
Guest
Technically, it is not wrong per se. Unfortunately, where this happens, the mass often becomes entertainment rather than worship, and the focus is on the preaching or the music rather than the Eucharist.
J
JReducation
Guest
Actually, Liturgy has three essential expressions according to Church tradition and law:
The Liturgy of the Word: readings and homily
The Liturgy of the Eucharist: sacrament
The Liturgy of the Hours: official prayer of the Church for all Catholics
At mass the focus must be equally distributed between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist as the Father feeds us through his spoken Word and his Incarnate Word.
In those cases where the Liturgy of the Hours is combined with the mass, the focus has to be split three ways. It’s all one focus, the God-Head, but through three expressions of liturgy.
Hope this clarifies something.
JR
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