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AbideWithMe
Guest
Yes, I do think he acted in good conscience, and followed the law of the Papal States; that’s my point of bringing this story up. He was not a “bad Pope” disregarding the rules. He really thought he was doing the right thing.
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joe371
Guest
I don’t think so…unless it would have been a reformation from within, which occurred i.e. the Catholic reformation. The Protestant Reformation did not reform anything, sadly. However, it did result in a massive fracture within Jesus’ Mystical Body. Like I mentioned: sometimes I hear non-Catholics talk about the “bad popes” to prove something I suppose, which really makes no sense to me. They too are sinners who can act contrary to the teachings/morals set in stone, and espoused by the Catholic Church. However, they cannot alter the teachings of the Catholic Church, thanks to God’s ineffable guidance in terms of preserving truth i.e. in those rare cases, in the past, where popes have behaved badly, we should not be discouraged but rather strive to follow and live up to the inviolable dictates of Catholic doctrine/morals, something certain popes, sadly, failed to do.
For example, if a pope, in the past, had someone killed, that does not mean that the commandment -thou shall not kill - is no longer a teaching of the Catholic Church, or that suddenly the Catholic Church has introduce error… It simply means that one fallible sinner, who happened to occupy the chair of Peter, chose to act contrary to the teachings of God.
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GKC
Guest
And what Papal State law was it?
Not saying there was none. But if you want to appeal to it, you need to demonstrate it.
GKC
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Indeed.
What I wonder is that [if] the baptism was said during confession…
If Canon Law 983.1 was in effect?
Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
If you’re balking over the use of “kidnap”, what word would you prefer be used to describe the taking away of a six year old child in this particular case? I’ll go by that word, if you will explain why you think it’s a better one. It’s the word used by Brown University historian David Kertzer in his book The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara.
I think if what happened to the Mortara family had happened to you, you’d consider it a kidnapping.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
The class moves to remove the subject on grounds of ad hominem].
Why jump in to throw dirt and not answer the myriad of questions asked to you?
That is a [fuss]
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GKC
Guest
That is, did the servant girl reveal in confession that she had baptized the boy, years before?
GKC
Added: Wiki says that Kertzer’s book places the revelation outside the confessional.
I suppose I’ll need to get that book, now.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Correct, you reform from within - not from without.
How does the saying go…?
“Let those who are without sin, throw the first stone”.
Or is it
“Why look at the speck in your brother’s eye while you pay no attention to the plank in your eye?”.
Something along those lines, if I recall correctly.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
My friend,
Unless you can cite the law, you should not make the accusation/claim.
Imagine being arrested on the grounds that you broke a law somewhere in the Penal Code, and it’s up to you to figure it out.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Yes, the girl revealed it herself. There was considerable question, both from the Mortara’s and later from others, if the baptism really even happened, or if the girl was acting from spite*in claiming to have baptized Edgardo so he would be taken from his family. Who knows…the result was though, that the Pope treated it as if the baptism had occurred, and so Edgardo was taken.
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GKC
Guest
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GKC
Guest
Mine is in contrast to most rational people.
I’ll order the book, in a day or two, on my next trip to feed my obsession. I recall stocking the title, back when I worked in the book trade, and I own at least one other book by the author. We shall see what case he can make, on this.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Well, no Jose…I’m not saying anyone broke a law—quite the opposite. What I am saying is that anyone who wants to know about the case can either research it on the several threads about it here on CAF (IIRC it even came up as a question on Ask an Apologist some years ago), read more on the web, or, better yet, read Kertzer’s book. The fact that I don’t own the book at home doesn’t make the research by Kertzer go away.My friend,
Unless you can cite the law, you should not make the accusation/claim.
Imagine being arrested on the grounds that you broke a law somewhere in the Penal Code, and it’s up to you to figure it out.
You seem to be saying that you think a beautified Pope acted as a maverick in a notorious affair which involved the concern of many countries in its day?
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GKC
Guest
This seems to be how Kertzer looked at it. But I’ll know more about that, in a week or so.
GKC
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I’d like to hear your thoughts on it.
I believe Kertzer is Jewish. I could see why someone might assume he’s overly emotionally involved or unjustly sensationalizing the case to call it a “kidnapping”, but from any parents’ perspective I think we each would probably consider it the same if it had happened to us.
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