Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

[guanophore]

Just popped in to see if the thread was dead.

Pius IX? Bah. It seems he acted in good conscience. Not much of a case.

If you want to talk about a bad pope, let’s discuss Alexander VI. If anyone gave people the idea that the papacy was hopelessly corrupt, he did it. Leo X was a nice guy in comparison.

In some ways Alexander VI set the stage for the Reformation.

Ok, class, discuss…

Indeed, I think this proves PR’s point that it was the bad behavior of individuals that contributed to the Reformation. Many of those corrupt persons were in positions of power, both civil and ecclesial.

The Church (people) is always in need of reform, but the doctrines did not need to be redesigned. They were correct the way Jesus gave them to the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

 

[Annie39]

Oops.

I;m still plotting the 1000 sq. ft. addition to the house, configured exclusively as a library.

Which would marginally help my book storage problem.

Marginally.

GKC

Wow. And I thought I was a bookworm. I solved my book storage problem by donating many books and buying a kindle. Yes, I know, a kindle can’t take the place of holding a book. There is something about that sort of thing. But it can take the place of some of them that aren’t quite so precious.

Annie

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Wow. And I thought I was a bookworm. I solved my book storage problem by donating many books and buying a kindle. Yes, I know, a kindle can’t take the place of holding a book. There is something about that sort of thing. But it can take the place of some of them that aren’t quite so precious.

Annie

Yes, I am moving in this direction as well. However, it’s proving to be really hard to transition, lol.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Patience. He’s not the book guy. I am.

Not saying what I will find, but will say what I find.

GKC

I had just finished my 2nd cup of coffee. I forgot to add patience

 

[GKC]

Or better, any rule or teaching that states a child can be baptized against the will of the parents/guardian.

What I am anticipating finding, based on what I know already of the case, is that this was an irregular baptism, done without anyone’s knowledge, which the Church regarded, when it became known. as a valid sacrament. Details of what this might mean, in terms of the practices of the times, espcially when a Jewish person was involved, may become clearer. Or may not.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I had just finished my 2nd cup of coffee. I forgot to add patience

I take it straight, myself.

GKC

 

[pablope]

The illumination was that to solve the problem of Judaizers, who could have destroyed the work of the spirit in “paul’s” churches making his work “vain”, to go to the source of the problem and counter it with church leaders at the “source” (Jerusalem). Hence the “private” meeting. Paul did not need affirmation but strategic help against the judaizers.
yes but of whom ?

Huh…

Paul going to Jerusalem at this time had nothing to do with the Judaizers. He was not even sent yet and ordained (in acts 13) at this point.

Anyway, you are missing the point too…what you said here…“Hence the “private” meeting. Paul did not need affirmation but strategic help against the judaizers.”…contradicts the passage:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul went in response to a revelation…the HS told Paul he needed affirmation about something…not with the Judaizers…but his gospel…what he was going to preach in his missionary journey.

But it also affirms what we have been saying…do not go on your own…go to the Church…get an apostolic pedigree…and the HS, by revelation to Paul…affirmed it…you have the principle of Apostolic Succession here.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I take it straight, myself.

GKC

I hear you. I am just moving in that direction, just now. I started a Paleo diet 2 weeks ago and I’m not doing milk or sugars… among other things… So a little of coconut milk and a bit of stevia for now. Will eventually drink it straight.

/cheers

 

[pablope]

Th

Quote:
So if you want to say Jesus won’t have the church teach anything wrong I would say Jesus won’t teach anything wrong despite the "bendings of the teacher/hearer. The safety net is in Jesus and His gracious works in a man not to bend what he says or hears and understands. That is as institutional as I should get.

Who did the Christ promise the guidance of the HS? Who did Christ say he will build His Church? Did Christ say He will build churches or one church?

And whom did He pray to strengthen his brethen?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I hear you. I am just moving in that direction, just now. I started a Paleo diet 2 weeks ago and I’m not doing milk or sugars… among other things… So a little of coconut milk and a bit of stevia for now. Will eventually drink it straight.

/cheers

It isn’t even Lent.

 

[GKC]

Wow. And I thought I was a bookworm. I solved my book storage problem by donating many books and buying a kindle. Yes, I know, a kindle can’t take the place of holding a book. There is something about that sort of thing. But it can take the place of some of them that aren’t quite so precious.

Annie

I started my hobby roughly 55+ years ago. And have accelerated as I grew older. Worked for around 12+ years in various aspects of book sales, which helped. So did a maniacal devotion to things printed and bound (no kindle for me). I estimate, based on average books per shelf foot, average number of books per typical (1.1-1.75 cubic feet) book box, average ditto for 3.5 cubic feet plastic bins, all adjusted for an estimated ratio of hardbacks (quarto or octavo, mostly), trade paperbacks and mass market paperbacks, all multiplied out by number of shelf feet or boxes, plus a count of the stacks cluttering the floor, and adding the 42 I bought last week or so, that I have, currently, more or less, approximately, by best guess, informed by the factors I listed, a total of a heck of a lot of books. Give or take. Or, in numbers, somewhere between 30,000 and 35,000.

It keeps me off the streets at night.

And, of course, there’s one order due in, and two titles to be ordered, as of 1300L.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I hear you. I am just moving in that direction, just now. I started a Paleo diet 2 weeks ago and I’m not doing milk or sugars… among other things… So a little of coconut milk and a bit of stevia for now. Will eventually drink it straight.

/cheers

The manly way.

(Wonder if I guessed wrong, again).

GKC

 

[Contarini]

Indeed, I think this proves PR’s point that it was the bad behavior of individuals that contributed to the Reformation.

No, it just shows that people on both sides find it convenient to talk about bad popes instead of the substantive issues at stake.

Sure, it contributed. But it wasn’t the main thing by any means.

I don’t understand why people on this forum, of all places, are so reluctant to take doctrine seriously as the primary cause of the Reformation.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t think so…unless it would have been a reformation from within, which occurred i.e. the Catholic reformation.

Which was not quite as awful as the Protestant Reformation, but still pretty bad.

Reformations, in general, are bad news

Edwin

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It isn’t even Lent.

Real Catholics fast year 'round

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The manly way.

(Wonder if I guessed wrong, again).

GKC

Caveman way , close enough

 

[PRmerger]

No, it just shows that people on both sides find it convenient to talk about bad popes instead of the substantive issues at stake.

Sure, it contributed. But it wasn’t the main thing by any means.

OMG! AGAIN with the addition of adjectives no one else has posited.

No one has said that bad behavior was the MAIN catalyst for the Prot Ref.

 

[Contarini]

Nope. Don’t know anything about it.

So you are offering it as an example of some Catholics who broke the rules, as a means of attempting to refute my position…

and yet you don’t even know what the rules are?

And please note, when I am talking about rules I am talking about doctrines (it is wrong to steal!) and dogmas (“There is One God, and 3 Persons!”). Not about canon law ("You must be over 17 yrs old to enter the noviate!")

So canon law doesn’t count as a rule?

That’s pretty weird. You’re setting up an impossibly narrow standard.

The doctrinal principles behind the Edgardo Mortara case were that

1. Any baptism performed with the proper intention in the name of the Trinity using water is valid and irreversible
2. Any Christian is entitled and indeed obligated to baptize any person who appears tob e in danger of death
3. Christian governments ought to ensure that Christian children are brought up as Christians.

Are you denying that all these principles would have been “the rules” for Pius IX?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

OMG! AGAIN with the addition of adjectives no one else has posited.

No one has said that bad behavior was the MAIN catalyst for the Prot Ref.

It’s the main thing that most people in this forum cite as the reason. Whenever the question of why the Reformation happened is raised, corruption is mentioned pretty quickly and doctrine is hardly mentioned at all.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

So canon law doesn’t count as a rule?

That’s pretty weird. You’re setting up an impossibly narrow standard.

The doctrinal principles behind the Edgardo Mortara case were that

1. Any baptism performed with the proper intention in the name of the Trinity using water is valid and irreversible
2. Any Christian is entitled and indeed obligated to baptize any person who appears tob e in danger of death
3. Christian governments ought to ensure that Christian children are brought up as Christians.

Are you denying that all these principles would have been “the rules” for Pius IX?

Edwin

This is certainly what I’ve read and concluded, thus far. But there are points of what are said to be civil law, particularly relating to Jews, and (somehow) related to Canon law that were functioning at the time, that I would like some definition on. These appear to include rules relating to employment of Jews, and what should be done, in cases like this.

GKC