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PRmerger
Guest
We are agreed here.
That doesn’t address the fact that you gave a wonderful explication of how the Church understands infallibility.
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That doesn’t address the fact that you gave a wonderful explication of how the Church understands infallibility.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Not really true—sometimes the hierarchy’s appalling misapplications of power were done by people who were in fact following the rules. The Edgardo Mortara case would be one such example.
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PRmerger
Guest
What rule was he following?
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Which “he” do you mean?
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PRmerger
Guest
I dunno.
The “he” whom you said was following the rules.
What rule was he following?
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PRmerger
Guest
Lest we go down a rabbit hole that leads to the netherworld, let’s just first talk about the rule.
Then we can talk about who broke it.
What rule are you referring to?
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AbideWithMe
Guest
In sanctioning and participating in the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara as a six year old child, which took him away from his Jewish family because an Italian housemaid said she had baptized him as a very young child, the Pope was following the rule that a “Christian” child could not be raised by non-Christian parents.
It’s an interesting but horrific story, if you have not read of it before.
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PRmerger
Guest
Can you cite the magisterial document that states that a Christian child could not be raised by non-Christian parents?
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joe371
Guest
Sometimes I hear non-Catholics talk about the “bad popes” to prove something I suppose, which really makes no sense to me. They too are sinners who can act contrary to the teachings/morals set in stone, and espoused by the Catholic Church. However, they cannot alter the teachings of the Catholic Church, thanks to God’s ineffable guidance in terms of preserving truth i.e. in those rare cases, in the past, where popes have behaved badly, we should not be discouraged but rather strive to follow and live up to the inviolable dictates of Catholic doctrine/morals, something certain popes, sadly, failed to do.
For example, if a pope, in the past, had someone killed, that does not mean that the commandment -thou shall not kill - is no longer a teaching of the Catholic Church, or that suddenly the Catholic Church has introduce error… It simply means that one fallible sinner, who happened to occupy the chair of Peter, chose to act contrary to the teachings of God.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
No; I’m not an expert on Canon Law. Do you actually know anything about the affair?
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joe371
Guest
I like this statement - “When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel”.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
I don’t know what rule this is, but it appears Pius IX was acting on his own:
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11028-mortara-case
alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,PTID5339_CHID476560_CIID183427,00.html
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PRmerger
Guest
Nope. Don’t know anything about it.
So you are offering it as an example of some Catholics who broke the rules, as a means of attempting to refute my position…
and yet you don’t even know what the rules are?
And please note, when I am talking about rules I am talking about doctrines (it is wrong to steal!) and dogmas (“There is One God, and 3 Persons!”). Not about canon law ("You must be over 17 yrs old to enter the noviate!")
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Thanks.I like this statement - “When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel”.
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PRmerger
Guest
Just to make a clear statement to the Lurkers:
There is no Catholic rule that proclaimed, “You may kidnap children from their parents.”
That’s just ga-ga la-la anti-Catholic nonsense.
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GKC
Guest
The sticking point, in the second link, can perhaps be found in the penultimate paragraph.
Wiki refers to civil law in the Papal States, which was following Canon Law, which required that, in the circumstances, Edgardo be raised a Catholic.
I have no information as to the accuracy of that, in total, or in detail.
GKC
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Tomyris
Guest
Just popped in to see if the thread was dead.
Pius IX? Bah. It seems he acted in good conscience. Not much of a case.
If you want to talk about a bad pope, let’s discuss Alexander VI. If anyone gave people the idea that the papacy was hopelessly corrupt, he did it. Leo X was a nice guy in comparison.
In some ways Alexander VI set the stage for the Reformation.
Ok, class, discuss…
Pius IX? Bah. It seems he acted in good conscience. Not much of a case.
If you want to talk about a bad pope, let’s discuss Alexander VI. If anyone gave people the idea that the papacy was hopelessly corrupt, he did it. Leo X was a nice guy in comparison.
In some ways Alexander VI set the stage for the Reformation.
Ok, class, discuss…
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I didn’t say I didn’t know the rule. I said I’m not an expert on Canon Law so I don’t know where to find it in a document. I’m going by the expertise of other people in saying it was a rule which Pope Pius IX used in making his very controversial decision.
Yes. It 's not accurate to say the Pope Pius IX was acting on his own; he was following the rules.
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GKC
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
If you could offer the document that taught that Catholics can kidnap children from their parents, then we can chat.
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