Why all the Fuss on the Reformation?

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Contarini said:
Itā€™s the main thing that most people in this forum cite as the reason. Whenever the question of why the Reformation happened is raised, corruption is mentioned pretty quickly and doctrine is hardly mentioned at all.

Edwin
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I am not a Luther scholar by any means, but I am pretty sure he balked at the notion that what he was doing had to do with moral corruption in the Church.
 
Contarini said:
So canon law doesnā€™t count as a rule?

Thatā€™s pretty weird. Youā€™re setting up an impossibly narrow standard.

The doctrinal principles behind the Edgardo Mortara case were that
  1. Any baptism performed with the proper intention in the name of the Trinity using water is valid and irreversible
  2. Any Christian is entitled and indeed obligated to baptize any person who appears tob e in danger of death
  3. Christian governments ought to ensure that Christian children are brought up as Christians.
Are you denying that all these principles would have been ā€œthe rulesā€ for Pius IX?

Edwin
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Thereā€™s also the issue of whether the Popeā€™s position as supreme legislator with regard to canon and absolute monarch with regard to the Papal States renders some of this discussion pointless; thereā€™s an argument to be made that within the States themselves, the Pope was a law unto himself.
 
guanophore said:
The Church (people) is always in need of reform, but the doctrines did not need to be redesigned. They were correct the way Jesus gave them to the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.
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Ding! Ding! Ding!
:amen:

We have a winner!:extrahappy::tiphat:
 
GKC said:
I started my hobby roughly 55+ years ago. And have accelerated as I grew older. Worked for around 12+ years in various aspects of book sales, which helped. So did a maniacal devotion to things printed and bound (no kindle for me). I estimate, based on average books per shelf foot, average number of books per typical (1.1-1.75 cubic feet) book box, average ditto for 3.5 cubic feet plastic bins, all adjusted for an estimated ratio of hardbacks (quarto or octavo, mostly), trade paperbacks and mass market paperbacks, all multiplied out by number of shelf feet or boxes, plus a count of the stacks cluttering the floor, and adding the 42 I bought last week or so, that I have, currently, more or less, approximately, by best guess, informed by the factors I listed, a total of a heck of a lot of books. Give or take. Or, in numbers, somewhere between 30,000 and 35,000.
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Thatā€™s, well, quite a few.

Iā€™ve been going kindle myself, to prevent my house from sinking.

I found a way, though, to lessen my wifeā€™s objections to the increasing size of my book collection. We got to see Scott Hahnā€™s ā€œlibrary.ā€ He has over 40,000 at last count.

And not only do I think heā€™s read them all, I think he remembers them all!
 
FathersKnowBest said:
Thatā€™s, well, quite a few.

Iā€™ve been going kindle myself, to prevent my house from sinking.

I found a way, though, to lessen my wifeā€™s objections to the increasing size of my book collection. We got to see Scott Hahnā€™s ā€œlibrary.ā€ He has over 40,000 at last count.

And not only do I think heā€™s read them all, I think he remembers them all!
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Tell him Iā€™ll pass him in around 4 years, unless he steps it up.

Iā€™d make that more like 3 years, but I did dispose of some 1-2 thousand over the past 6 years or so.

My wife is of the same genetic makeup as I am. When I bought 39 books last Friday, 8 were for her.

GKC
 
GKC said:
I started my hobby roughly 55+ years ago. And have accelerated as I grew older. Worked for around 12+ years in various aspects of book sales, which helped. So did a maniacal devotion to things printed and bound (no kindle for me). I estimate, based on average books per shelf foot, average number of books per typical (1.1-1.75 cubic feet) book box, average ditto for 3.5 cubic feet plastic bins, all adjusted for an estimated ratio of hardbacks (quarto or octavo, mostly), trade paperbacks and mass market paperbacks, all multiplied out by number of shelf feet or boxes, plus a count of the stacks cluttering the floor, and adding the 42 I bought last week or so, that I have, currently, more or less, approximately, by best guess, informed by the factors I listed, a total of a heck of a lot of books. Give or take. Or, in numbers, somewhere between 30,000 and 35,000.
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I had to re-read your post. I thought you were talking about the number of Protestant denominations.

:takeoff:

šŸ˜ƒ
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
I had to re-read your post. I thought you were talking about the number of Protestant denominations.

:takeoff:

šŸ˜ƒ
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Good catch. Wondered if anyone would.

But it is still a rough estimate, arrived at some time back, for what is burdening the house/shelves/floor/attic/garage/tool shed/garage-sized climate controlled storage area. Which will be 2 garage-sized climate controlled storage areas, when they have an open unit near enough to mine.

GKC
 
guanophore said:
Indeed, I think this proves PRā€™s point that it was the bad behavior of individuals that contributed to the Reformation. Many of those corrupt persons were in positions of power, both civil and ecclesial.
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It contributed, and hence the doctrinal corruption. Corrupt people taught corruption, by example if by no other method.
The Church (people) is always in need of reform, but the doctrines did not need to be redesigned.
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Spoken like a good Protestant! If the Church had not corrupted the doctrines, there would be no problem!
They were correct the way Jesus gave them to the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.
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And the corrupt politicians corrupted them, requiring a restoration away from the original corruption.
Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.?
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Thatā€™s from the Book of James, which is in the Bible. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Corrupt teachers produce corruption.
 
It is hard to catch up with everything!

I think I have answered all the questions, although some do not accept or understand the answers.

Did PR ever answer my question?
 
GKC said:
Good catch. Wondered if anyone would.

But it is still a rough estimate, arrived at some time back, for what is burdening the house/shelves/floor/attic/garage/tool shed/garage-sized climate controlled storage area. Which will be 2 garage-sized climate controlled storage areas, when they have an open unit near enough to mine.

GKC
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I was just wondering if you count the 3-volume Lord of the Rings as one book, and if you have the second and third editions of a book, do you count that as one or two, or the paperback edition and hard-cover? What about excerpts in three-ring binders, say copies of various works of Dickens? And anthologies? What of books that are a single volume but have several books in them? And the Bible is one book but how many books do you count it as (here we go :eek:)? And do you count different editions and translation of the Bible as one, or count them individually.

This is staggering. šŸ˜›

This will keep me up at night if I do not get an answer.
 
Tomyris said:
It is hard to catch up with everything!

I think I have answered all the questions, although some do not accept or understand the answers.

Did PR ever answer my question?
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Nope.

She is still waiting for you to answer hers. šŸ™‚

At least, to provide some explication for the ā€œIā€™ll know Scripture when I see itā€ paradigm, and how it applies to Hebrews, 3 John, Titus, but excludes Clement and the Shepherd.

How is it that you know that Hebrews is inspired? Iā€™m still not clear on that.
 
Tomyris said:
And the Bible is one book but how many books do you count it as (here we go :eek:)? And do you count different editions and translation of the Bible as one, or count them individually.

This is staggering. šŸ˜›

This will keep me up at night if I do not get an answer.
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šŸ˜ƒ
 
PRmerger said:
Nope.

She is still waiting for you to answer hers. šŸ™‚

At least, to provide some explication for the ā€œIā€™ll know Scripture when I see itā€ paradigm, and how it applies to Hebrews, 3 John, Titus, but excludes Clement and the Shepherd.

How is it that you know that Hebrews is inspired? Iā€™m still not clear on that.
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I told you. I cannot make it any clearer.

Your turn.

One of the Clements, by the way, is about 90% quotations from the NT.
 
PR,

I have two theories here.

One is if I put on my Catholic hat and respond to what I said and say, ā€œAh. The good Lord in His mercy granted a gift to his Protestant children, or some of them anyway, to know what His Word is, since they have have lost the Magisteriumā€. That is the theory that this is a gift that God gives as He wills (see book of Hebrews) and there really is no satisfactory logical answer.

The second is that you have this just as I do but it is running deep below the surface because you are used to it, like wearing a good pair of shoes and after a while forgetting you even have them on because they are so comfy.

Then there is my hubbyā€™s theory, and that is that I making a hash of this whole thing and confusing everyone, and I should know a lot more about this before I hash it up even worse, because youā€™ll walk away thinking this is good Reformed theology. I told him, ok, smart guy, bail me out. He just laughed.

Iā€™m going with Door #3. šŸ˜Š
 
Ahem.

And I uninterested in the taking of the boy who had been baptized. I feel sorry for his family, but what is of interest here is whether the Protestants DID have justifiable grounds for the separation (vague on purpose). Was the corruption so bad, doctrinally and ethically, that they were right in doing so? I have a hunch the predisposition of the Catholics is for a no, here , and the Protestants might lean the other way.

And if the Protestants say ā€œOoopsā€ why donā€™t they rejoin the Catholic Church? And if the Protestants were right, why should Catholics stay? What is the defining issue? Is there one that we can boil it down to?

A lot of other stuff is meaningless drivel. Cut to the chase. But knowing how many books GKC has, though, is of utmost urgency.
 
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