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PRmerger
Guest
So what’s the standard? How does one know whether a church has been given the charism of infallibility?
When she teaches that which is in conformity to the CC?
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When she teaches that which is in conformity to the CC?
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benhur
Guest
Foreknowledge does not do away with “condition”. You still say one must listen, be faithful. How is that not a “condition”?
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Tomyris
Guest
Another time.
Not at all a strawman.
Rules for Thinking with the Church
Not all Catholics are Jesuits, but there it is in, um, black and white. If I see three lights and the Church says I see four, I am, if Catholic, to agree I see four.
Outside my comfort zone I am. This is demonstrating our reliance on mutually unstated prepositions. It reminds me of a church class in which we were to write our testimonies without using evangelical terminology, of which we were given a long list of words and phrases that we could not use because they were buzz words to the outside.
‘Infallible’ is a buzzword here. You guys think you know what it means but I don’t know what you mean by it.
This is a problem.That does not mean there is not a solution.
See Jesuit quote above and consider its implications.
I think there may be some prepositioning going on, where people are trying to force me to answer certain questions in a certain way, because then they ask the next question in their little list, then the next one…So they beat on me with the first one until they get the answer they want. Sigh. So I am anticipating the next question and possibly taking a more extreme position than I would without this.
That helps me answer. Reason, feeling, intution, passages that 'spring to life, sermons, reading, friends, songs, dreams, prayer, pastors, husband, strangers.
In coding it is extremely common for me to have absolutely no idea on how to do something after having tried everything. And I pray, and many times within one or two seconds I get something like ‘the parameters are reversed in line 342’. And I had not even seen line 342, because that was in another file, and they are reversed, because in the file I was in it was a,b and in the other file, in line 342, it was b,a when it should have been a,b - but I could not have known that. Or I suddenly understand something. I don’t consider that infallible, because sometimes it’s something else, not the parameters, in line 342, or it’s the parameters, but they are switched in line 350, not 342, but this happens just about everyday. I thank God when He shows me stuff. That does not make me a superChristian or a superprogrammer, just somebody who hears when God speaks, sometimes. But when He speaks, I want to listen.
Earlier on this thread I posted about the relationship between observation, which is inherently chaotic and unrepeatable, and reason, in which we put our observations together in patterns. When God speaks, it is in the first category, but to realize He has spoken is always in the second category. 'What happened? ‘Oh, that was God’.
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guanophore
Guest
Rom 11:29
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Jesus promised to lead the Church into all Truth, so the gift of infallibility is not conditional. I think our ability to benefit from it is conditional. If we depart from the Teaching of the Church that is preserved by the gift, then we will not benefit. Don’t you think this is consistent with what we read in the Letters of Revelation?
**
Actually do you not say sadly not all are obedient nor listen to CC ?**
In the context of our present discussion, and after having spent most of the weekend reviewing some of the events of the Reformation, my sadness is particularly regarding the corruption of Catholic clerics, from the Medici’s through the time of Pope Leo VII. I think it was the failure of these persons in positions of leadership and power that precipitated the reformaition. I also think conflating secular power with spiritual was a pre-cursor.
benhur:
Some do. I am one. However, we believe that reformation must occur from within, not without. We also believe that the call for repentance also includes obedience, not rebellion. This is why we call those who remained within the Church saints.
And we believe that, though humans are always in need of reform, there was not a need to reform the doctrines that were once and for all delivered to the Church.
No, there is more to realignment than forgiveness, but it is a start. I don’t see forgiveness, forebearance, tolerance or any of the fruit of the Spirit at any of the points of separation, from the Great Schism to the Reformaiton, each and every split has been characterized by pride, greed, and hate.
At least there are some points upon which we can agree and use as a foundation.
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benhur
Guest
I think of some who are too busy for deeper theological postulations because they are quite busy in just “doing it”( the christian walk). I then think of fat Roman senators in Rome’s edge of decline postulating all sorts of things while there nation is going downhill.They did not work nor fight (had slaves for that) so had time to “think” but not so well anymore.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Lol, this is the biggest fear isn’t? Someone telling you what is [actually] correct and you losing the freedom of having the opinion of being right…
Using this same scenario.
If you are Protestant and there’s four lights but you see three and [a] Protestant Church tells you that there are four lights, not three. You just leave and make a three lights denomination. At which point, one of the members of your new denomination will say he sees five lights and then leave and make another denomination. At which point the five denomination Church will have a member seeing the actual four lights but he doesn’t want to go back to the original four lights Church, so he will then find a country where he can convince their leaders that we can have a four lights Church apart from the original four lights Church. At which point a member of the national four lights Church will become disgruntled and believe that there’s four lights, only if you accept the definition of what lights are, in which case he will declare that of the four lights only 2 lights are needed and the other 2 lights are really symbolical, so he will leave and make a new 2 lights Church. At which point…
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benhur
Guest
Jesus guiding infallibly( into all truth) is unconditional but receiving it is conditional. After all, you would say the LDS or O and P’s don’t have it. You even say some are in the Body and their churches don’t have it. Therefore it is conditional. Your condition due to doctrine is that it is for CC only. Mine is that it is by His riches and graces and according to His will we receive any level of it.
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guanophore
Guest
There are some elements that might shed more light on this frame of mind.
- We recognize that our minds are finite, and that God has revealed some Truths to humankind that we are incapable of grasping with our limited cognition (the Trinity, for example). We accept these things on faith because God has revealed them, not because we can wrap our minds around them.
- There are some Truths that we are not yet ready to grasp, ,but we will later:
12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Our understanding of the Once For All deposit of faith develops over time
- There is a confidence of faith that we place in Him such that, if things don’t make sense now, we are confident they will later. For example, the Apostles had no idea why Jesus was telling them to eat His Body and drink His Blood, but they did know He had the words of eternal life, and trusted it would make sense later. After He died, and they looked back through the Last Supper, they began to understand.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Thank you for saying so. You are right that the greatest amount of misunderstanding comes from semantics problems. Most Protestants misunderstand the Catholic understanding of the gift of infallibility. I think we can all agree that Jesus will stand by His Promise to lead the Church into “all Truth”, but for us, this is a “negative” gift, which means that the Church will be prevented from teaching error, because teaching and believing error will prevent us from crashing the gates of hell.‘Infallible’ is a buzzword here. You guys think you know what it means but I don’t know what you mean by it. This is a problem.
Busted!
Catholics call this a Word of Knowledge, when God reveals information to us that we could have no way of knowing with our rational mind. It is wonderful that you are so open to this gift, and responsive to it. I wish more people were!
I think that both types of revelation happen, those that are systemic, rational and observable, and those that are intuitive, imaginal, ,and beyond the ability of science to validate. The Church must test both kinds for validity and authenticity.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
By every means the writers of Scripture were human and they also wrote within the framework of their customs and their time. It is for that very reason I am not completely assured I should take every word they wrote literally. Before anyone again asks how do I know what to take with certainty? I don’t. But that’s my point. I don’t believe any human can when it comes to faith. That’s why it’s called faith in the first place. The best I can do is pray, study, contemplate. do my best to strive to discern by the faith God has given me within. I totally agree with your last sentiment however. Seeking is one thing though. Being assured with no doubt that one knows for sure the one truth and are right on every matter of faith is to my estimation quite another. I just guess though as a human I don’t have the need that I find many Catholics do, to think I’m right on every matter of faith. But that’s me. So please don’t take me wrong. I think it’s fine if people believe they are right. I just place emphasis on the word believe.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Porknpie, just a couple of points. There are of course different interpretations and POV among people of faith about what Christ meant at the Last Supper and in Jn 6 and about history. But the CC considers me unworthy and tells me not to receive the Eucharist as I am anyway. I could discern the Body, discern Christ giving up His for me and for all of us. I could feel called by the Father even with my warts and all to approach Jesus and receive. Jesus even said He would turn no one away. Yet I am told by the CC I am unworthy. So telling me how important the Eucharist is for my relationship unfortunately doesn’t do a lot for me. Because I’m told not to receive because I don’t measure up. I’m not good enough or considered as worthy as others.Sy, Christ specifically told us to receive him in the Eucharist. Through the Eucharist, the Catholic relationship with God goes beyond one of prayer only, but extends to receiving him Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. This is important because Christ himself told us to do both: pray and receive him.
Malachi foretells of this future, pure offering, world-wide, 24 hours a day in the Mass.
Malachi 1
11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.
Our relationship with God is a terrific reason to concern yourself with the Reformation and consider the 2,000 year old, Catholic faith.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
I hear this kind of stuff and just burn, lol.
And yet, it is this same **word **so many believe differently that say:
Matthew 28:20
**teaching **them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the **traditions **just as I delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the **traditions **which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the **tradition **which he received from us.
1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Timothy 4:6
If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good **doctrine **which you have carefully followed.
Acts 2:42
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ **doctrine **and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of **doctrine **to which you were delivered.
Romans 16:17
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the **doctrine **which you learned, and avoid them.
1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
Titus 1:7–9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
2 John 9–10
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the **doctrine **of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the **doctrine **of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
Scriptures are not a multiple choice or a pick which ones you want kind of deal.
They are all or nothing.
It’s not about what I [think] they mean or if I [feel] I’m right. It’s about what do they [actually] mean.
The sound doctrine of Christ Jesus.
We can have all the opinions we want, the bottom line is that we don’t get to make them doctrine or dogma…
Christ left us a Teaching Office to avoid [exactly] what you are saying.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Please don’t burn Jose. But if everything was so simple, everyone would be Catholic!
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Never underestimate our innate ability to complicate things! lol
All Adam had to do was not eat from a single tree… He had the whole planet… and we failed, lol.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes but it is curious that you seem to be espousing one that diverges from what the Apostles believed and taught.
The CC teaches and practices what was handed down from the Apostles. When the Church considers us not in a worthy state to receive, she does so for our protection, so that we do not eat and drink condemnation upon ourselves.
The Church is not at liberty to change that which was committed to the Church by Christ.
I don’t know your particular circumstances, and it may not be appropriate to get into them on a public forum, but strictly speaking we are ALL unworthy of the great gift of His Body and Blood. We can approach by grace, through faith, being made worthy by Him, and not of ourselves. One way that we are made worthy is through following His commandments. When we fail to do so, we are no longer “in Christ”, and we receive unworthily.
1 Cor 11:27-29
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
It is the duty of the Church to protect the flock from this judgment.
Apparently it has done quite a lot to you.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
That is our Cross to bear. We are not alone. My prayers are with you.
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JRKH
Guest
Yes - there are such people too…but I hope that the above isn’t intended as an analogy to the Catholic Church hierarchy.
Peace
James
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Porknpie
Guest
True. But let’s affirm that there was only one interpretation for over 1,500 years, that Christ was truly present, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist.
Couple things here Sy. To put this in perspective one must keep in mind that the bible says that nothing unclean can enter heaven as we are encountering that which is all Holy. In the Old Testament, we can read the story of Uzzah touching the Ark, the dwelling place of God among the people. 2 Samuel below.
- Again, David gathered together all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand.
2 And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims.
3 And they set the ark of God upon a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab that was in Gibeah: and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drave the new cart.
4 And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab which was at Gibeah, accompanying the ark of God: and Ahio went before the ark.
5 And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals.
6 And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
7 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
Scripture is clear, thus God is clear, that we should not receive the Eucharist unworthily.
For sure, Jesus turns no one away but we can be disobedient to his commands and cut ourselves off. We do this to ourselves despite Jesus’ invitation to all. It’s a very human thing to do at times…to deceive ourselves. We all do it.
Sy, all of us must conform our lives to the Gospel (and not the other way around). When we fall into serious sin, we are to not receive him in the Eucharist. But God loves us all and calls all to holiness and into a relationship with him. But being a good Father, he does set out some rules that we are to follow. It’s our choice whether we follow as he directs us or not.
PnP
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen to the above!
I would add an analogy (which is the Church’s analogy, made more manifest by the great Pope St. John Paul II in his TOB; and his TOB comes from the analogy of Scripture)…
the Eucharist is our One Flesh Union with the Bridegroom, Christ.
Coming to Him unworthily, without making reparations for actions which mortally separated us from Him, is like a husband greatly insulting his wife, and then wanting to enjoy his marital rights without making any attempt to seek redress with her.
I can’t imagine any loving marriage in which a spouse has greatly offended the other, yet comes to the marital bed expecting to become one flesh, saying, “shrug, It’s my right. And what’s the big deal, anyway? She knew I wasn’t perfect when she married me.”
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GKC
Guest
That might a trifle overstating it, considering the Radbertus and Ratramanus discussions, or Berengarius.
GKC
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Tommy999
Guest
PRmerger,
Although I am not Catholic, that analogy makes a lot of sense to me and helps me to better understand why not every Catholic is allowed to take holy communion. I used to think that the Catholic Church was probably just being punitive and that the denial was just a form of penance or something. To view it in the context of marriage makes it a lot more clear and understandable to me.
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