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Tomyris
Guest
Is your desire then a polemic that Tradition outweighs Scripture? To what end is this desire?
- Status
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Tomyris
Guest
Bishops have not exactly protected the church from heresy or schism, have they? At one point the majority were Arian. Then the split between Rome and Constantinople was between those two bishops. And today we see many bishops creating scandal, defending heretical thoughts, etc.
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SteveVH
Guest
They have very well protected the Church from heresy. Even though the Arians were indeed the majority they never changed Catholic doctrine concerning the nature of Jesus Christ, did they? How is this not protecting the Church from heresy, even against a majority? This could never happen in a Protestant faith community.
Are you trying to define our faith by those who are unfaithful?
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Tomyris
Guest
Are you familiar with the Arian controversy? It pertained to whether Jesus was of the same nature or similar nature to the Father - they certainly tried.
How do you know who is unfaithful? How do you know they are right when they say they are right and faithful?
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Tomyris
Guest
A
adf417
Guest
an observation
I wish I did know, but I don’t think you should expect us to become perfect and time soon.
If we did who is the dude on the other side of the curtain going to talk to? 
Peace!!!
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Tomyris
Guest
Peace right back atcha!
Have a piece of the cake in the first post, friend, and hang around.
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guanophore
Guest
No, Scripture and Tradition are like two threads of a rope, they are meant to exist and complement one another. Scripture was never meant to be separated from the kerygma that produced it.
2 Thess 2:15
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The traditions are the Apostles’ way of seeing and doing things. Within them we find the “glasses” work by them to read the Scriptures.
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guanophore
Guest
Not all of them have, no, but there have been sufficient faithful Bishops to preserve what Christ founded.
The refusal of the recipient to use the gift does not invalidate the gift for anyone but himself. Think of it this way. We have had some very honorable and effective presidents. Some disgraced the office, others brought esteem to it. Even a complete failure of a president does not invalidate the office.
Yes, and that is one of the best examples of the how Christ protects His Church infallibly. Despite the majority falling into heresy, God was able to use the faithful Bishops that remained to protect the whole Church.
Really? I have not seen that. The USCB is doing amazing work, and I am only aware of a couple of bishops whose behavior is deplorable. Their lack of faithfulness does not invalidate the lifetime of service and holiness of the other 95%.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yep.
And failed, right? They did not change Catholic doctrine. That is the point. The Church was protected from heresy, even when a majority of bishops were led astray for a time. The Church maintained the truth it had been given from the beginning.
It was you who defined who we are speaking of: “many bishops creating scandal, defending heretical thoughts” Do you think they are right in creating scandal and defending heretical thoughts?
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guanophore
Guest
How do we know about anybody?
What standards of measurement can we use?
Obviously all committed persons will say they are right and faithful, even those who are off their nut. We have seen some leaders form communities in which they keep a harem and introduce children to sex as some sort of ritual worship.
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adf417
Guest
Oh I’ve beenPeace right back atcha!
Have a piece of the cake in the first post, friend, and hang around.
and lurking sense your first thread. I just read much more than I post. I find I come across kinder and much more intelligent that way.
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Denise1957
Guest
Are there really that many bishops creating scandal? What heretical thoughts are they defending?
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Denise1957
Guest
How have Catholics not used the truth in defense of truth? Can you give an example?
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Denise 1957: I thought that I would chime in here and say something about what you were replying to. Arianism was the most notorious and most successful of the ancient heresies. The teachings of Arius, and the reactions they provoked, played a most crucial role in Church history and the development of doctrine. Teaching in Alexandria in the early 4th century, Arius denied that Jesus was God or co-eternal with the Father. The heresy spread rapidly, winning over, at different times, a succession of Byzantine emperors, a majority of the bishops, and most of the Christians in the Germanic tribes. The heresy of Arius drew forceful opposition from the greatest minds and souls in the Church. The movement to oppose Arianism culminated in the teachings of St. Athanasius and of the Council of Nicaea in 325AD. Nicaea’s creed refined the orthodox expression of fundamental doctrines such as the Trinity.
It was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that this heresy was defeated and the truth of Christ was affirmed.
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Denise1957
Guest
To address the question of the OP: Why all the fuss over the reformation? Well, for one thing, we ought to address the lies and distortions with which the Protestants use to accuse the Catholic Church of doing evil things.
I’ve been reading a book called, “Seven Lies About Catholic History,” in which the author, Dr. Diane Moczar, addresses the more common lies and myths regarding Church history. She writes in the Preface to the book:
"In cases where historical lies target the Catholic Church directly or exclusively, there are, again, a variety of specific motives for the attacks. Atheists are always happy to find some issue with which to discredit the Church, and ex-Catholics bearing a grudge against their former spiritual mother are often both rabid liars and prolific writers.
The most thoroughgoing and persistent religious historical lie seems to be the oddly unhistorical view that most Protestants take of pre-Reformation history. They posit an early Christian community of believers with a very loose ecclesiastical organization and no fixed hierarchical structure, only a couple of sacraments, and a few doctrines that fit whatever sect they belonged to. this happy situation lasted, in their minds, until the Emperor Constantine stopped the persecutions and legitimized Christianity. Constantine supposedly reshaped the structure and doctrines of the Church by meddling in ecclesiastical affairs, and this Church-State coziness changed Roman Christianity into what became the bad Catholic Church we have today.–while the true believers went underground in order to practice their pure and simple faith, only emerging into the daylight with the dawn of the Reformation.
This scenario is incredible (in the literal sense) to anyone familiar with the mass of available early Christian documents and history of the first three centuries. The myth survives mainly due to ignorance, as well as ideology, and the reason I do not deal with it directly in this book is that the cure for it is an entire course on early Western Civilization. Portions of this mythical history, however, will turn up in several of the following chapters."
I’m providing the above quotes from the book to show the ignorance that surrounds the history of the Catholic Church. Those who promote the lies are not necessarily doing so intentionally. And it’s sometimes difficult to get to the bottom of a particular myth or lie.
I’ve been reading a book called, “Seven Lies About Catholic History,” in which the author, Dr. Diane Moczar, addresses the more common lies and myths regarding Church history. She writes in the Preface to the book:
"In cases where historical lies target the Catholic Church directly or exclusively, there are, again, a variety of specific motives for the attacks. Atheists are always happy to find some issue with which to discredit the Church, and ex-Catholics bearing a grudge against their former spiritual mother are often both rabid liars and prolific writers.
The most thoroughgoing and persistent religious historical lie seems to be the oddly unhistorical view that most Protestants take of pre-Reformation history. They posit an early Christian community of believers with a very loose ecclesiastical organization and no fixed hierarchical structure, only a couple of sacraments, and a few doctrines that fit whatever sect they belonged to. this happy situation lasted, in their minds, until the Emperor Constantine stopped the persecutions and legitimized Christianity. Constantine supposedly reshaped the structure and doctrines of the Church by meddling in ecclesiastical affairs, and this Church-State coziness changed Roman Christianity into what became the bad Catholic Church we have today.–while the true believers went underground in order to practice their pure and simple faith, only emerging into the daylight with the dawn of the Reformation.
This scenario is incredible (in the literal sense) to anyone familiar with the mass of available early Christian documents and history of the first three centuries. The myth survives mainly due to ignorance, as well as ideology, and the reason I do not deal with it directly in this book is that the cure for it is an entire course on early Western Civilization. Portions of this mythical history, however, will turn up in several of the following chapters."
I’m providing the above quotes from the book to show the ignorance that surrounds the history of the Catholic Church. Those who promote the lies are not necessarily doing so intentionally. And it’s sometimes difficult to get to the bottom of a particular myth or lie.
D
Dave_Noonan
Guest
Maybe we should start a thread called “Top Ten Catholic CAF Canards”?
My nominations would certainly include:- Martin Luther took books out of the Bible. Or its equally popular variant, Martin Luther only tried to take books out but (somehow inexplicably) couldn’t.
- Anything having to do with the “Council of Jamnia”
- “Thou shalt not kill” is a mistranslation.
- There’s no way to say “cousin” in Aramaic
- Gen 3:15 should actually read “She will strike your head…”
- More or less anything about the Septuagint
- The canon of the Bible was agreed upon at the Council of Nicaea
- The endless strawmen over sola scriptura
- Catholics hear all of the Bible at Mass if they attend Mass every day.
- Almost anything having to do with Jewish/Rabbinic traditions (the todah, the “four cups” business, etc.)
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Denise1957
Guest
Thanks for pointing out the above info. I think that St. Jerome also worked to defeat the Arian heresy. The point being, of course, that the Church did right herself in time, as she always does, through the intervention of, as you mention, the Holy Ghost, and, IMO, also faithful Catholics who are armed with love of God and truth, and the Catholic Church, and who wouldn’t give up. No matter how much persecution St. Athanasius experienced, he never gave up. We ought to take his example and not give up defending the Church, and truth. Though we have to work hard sometimes in doing so.
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spina1953
Guest
Hi Denise 1957: I think that id you read any history and also Acts, as well as many of the Epistles, one can readily see that they were those who for whatever reason did not accept what was being taught first by Christ Himself and then His Apostles and afterwards their successor’s. Some had their own idea’s as to what was being taught, yet, by the Power of the Holy Spirit the truth came out and those who accepted it did so because they believed. One also needs to remember that the emperors during Roman times were in control of religions and so even when Constantine became emperor and those who followed him meddled into Church affairs because they thought wrongly of course that they had a right as emperor to control religion and religious beliefs. This what cause many of the heresies to flourish and Councils were called in order to address the heresies being promulgated .
I agree that we need never to give up defending the faith but it also has to be done with truth, and be will to accept that not everyone is going to accept the truth since one has the free will to choose what they want to believe. One can only promote the truth and it is up to those hearing it to decide to believe or not.
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adf417
Guest
2nd reply…
I sure thought it would take longer than this but here goes…
Can you answer you own question above after reading this…
Maybe we should start a thread called “Top Ten Catholic CAF Canards”?
Edwin is right. These just don’t die.
- Martin Luther took books out of the Bible. Or its equally popular variant, Martin Luther only tried to take books out but (somehow inexplicably) couldn’t.
- Anything having to do with the “Council of Jamnia”
- “Thou shalt not kill” is a mistranslation.
- There’s no way to say “cousin” in Aramaic
- Gen 3:15 should actually read “She will strike your head…”
- More or less anything about the Septuagint
- The canon of the Bible was agreed upon at the Council of Nicaea
- The endless strawmen over sola scriptura
- Catholics hear all of the Bible at Mass if they attend Mass every day.
- Almost anything having to do with Jewish/Rabbinic traditions (the todah, the “four cups” business, etc.)
- Status