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JustaServant
Guest
You might want to read Timothysis’ posts.
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Yellow_Belle
Guest
They are forthright but hardly offensive, IMO.
I am sorry this thread may be closed - it’s a very good topic.
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Timothysis
Guest
Please show me how my posts have been objectionable to Traditionalism or what I have said that is offensive.
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MonFrere
Guest
This is how I’m reading it Yellow Belle, so I agree with you.
I think that “mainstream” Catholics have problems and these problems are generally addressed without any focus as to a specific group. However, when the Church speaks of “charismatics” or “traditionalists” the comments are specific to these specific groups - so it’s more “personal”. In this sense these groups feel more “picked on”. Also, these groups, since they are out of the “mainstream” are never going to be given a carte blanche "approval and because of this they are never going to feel completely a part of the Church UNLESS they also give full acknowledgment to the “mainstream”. People in these other groups, like the traditionalists, need to feel (of their own accord) that they are fully accepted and part of the whole – even though their problems are unique and not the same as in usual with the mainstream.
Just a thought.
MonFrere
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JustaServant
Guest
Traditionalists are part of the ‘mainstream’.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I wonder if some of the objection could be fear.
What I mean is, suppose you have John Average, a 35 year old Catholic who has grown up with a ‘typical’ Catholic experience. In his youth he probably experienced a few ‘questionable’ liturgies but he was young, he doesn’t really remember. In his most recent past 10 years, most everywhere the OF has become much more ‘stable’. To John Average, his OF Mass is what he knows and loves, and has always known and loved.
Now John is hearing from James Traditional. James is 55, and James experienced (when he was the age John is now) a lot of the really ‘questionable’ stuff. James went through 40 years of being told to ‘shut up’ and "accept that things change’ --change almost overnight.
And John begins to worry because now suddenly (to John), James is getting his EF (which was, I cannot emphasize enough, never abrogated but to all intents and purposes to the majority of Catholics in the U.S. in the last 40 years it was absolutely unavailable)… .and in the back of John’s mind is the worry --if JAMES is getting ‘back’ the Mass that James once knew, that had disappeared so quickly and with the ‘people in the pew’ having absolutely no (name removed by moderator)ut–maybe one day JOHN will find HIS Mass has ‘disappeared’. And of course, to John, the Mass that would ‘threaten’ his OF is the EF. Even though as Christians we are not supposed to hold grudges, I think it very possible that if John were to ‘lose’ his Mass for 40 years he would be very angry and would certainly blame those who ‘took it away’ and would blame even more the ‘replacement’ Mass and the folks who proposed it. So maybe some of the people who get nasty about traditions (and there aren’t really that many, but when they do speak, they are very, um, virulent) do so because they are afraid that we traditionalists are out there with our supercomputers waiting for them to relax their constant vigilance, and ‘take over’ their churches. They’re afraid that they’re going to walk into Church one Sunday and be told, “Sit down, it’s all Latin now, women have to veil, it’s all going back to the MIDDLE AGES–and shut up and take it.” They really honestly think that we’re going to ‘take their Mass away’. . .as if we would. In fact the traditionist (and I am speaking of the true traditionalist, not the sedevacantist nor the extremist who are decried by true traditionalists, just as the ‘haters’ and traditionalist bashers are decried by those who are not traditionalists themselves but can recognize that ‘fringe elements’ are not at all to be considered true members of any given group) is the least likely person to advocate any huge and sweeping changes, precisely because that was done to us and the effects were so brutal and long-lasting. Why would we wish others to undergo that kind of pain and suffering which need NOT happen?
What I mean is, suppose you have John Average, a 35 year old Catholic who has grown up with a ‘typical’ Catholic experience. In his youth he probably experienced a few ‘questionable’ liturgies but he was young, he doesn’t really remember. In his most recent past 10 years, most everywhere the OF has become much more ‘stable’. To John Average, his OF Mass is what he knows and loves, and has always known and loved.
Now John is hearing from James Traditional. James is 55, and James experienced (when he was the age John is now) a lot of the really ‘questionable’ stuff. James went through 40 years of being told to ‘shut up’ and "accept that things change’ --change almost overnight.
And John begins to worry because now suddenly (to John), James is getting his EF (which was, I cannot emphasize enough, never abrogated but to all intents and purposes to the majority of Catholics in the U.S. in the last 40 years it was absolutely unavailable)… .and in the back of John’s mind is the worry --if JAMES is getting ‘back’ the Mass that James once knew, that had disappeared so quickly and with the ‘people in the pew’ having absolutely no (name removed by moderator)ut–maybe one day JOHN will find HIS Mass has ‘disappeared’. And of course, to John, the Mass that would ‘threaten’ his OF is the EF. Even though as Christians we are not supposed to hold grudges, I think it very possible that if John were to ‘lose’ his Mass for 40 years he would be very angry and would certainly blame those who ‘took it away’ and would blame even more the ‘replacement’ Mass and the folks who proposed it. So maybe some of the people who get nasty about traditions (and there aren’t really that many, but when they do speak, they are very, um, virulent) do so because they are afraid that we traditionalists are out there with our supercomputers waiting for them to relax their constant vigilance, and ‘take over’ their churches. They’re afraid that they’re going to walk into Church one Sunday and be told, “Sit down, it’s all Latin now, women have to veil, it’s all going back to the MIDDLE AGES–and shut up and take it.” They really honestly think that we’re going to ‘take their Mass away’. . .as if we would. In fact the traditionist (and I am speaking of the true traditionalist, not the sedevacantist nor the extremist who are decried by true traditionalists, just as the ‘haters’ and traditionalist bashers are decried by those who are not traditionalists themselves but can recognize that ‘fringe elements’ are not at all to be considered true members of any given group) is the least likely person to advocate any huge and sweeping changes, precisely because that was done to us and the effects were so brutal and long-lasting. Why would we wish others to undergo that kind of pain and suffering which need NOT happen?
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JustaServant
Guest
Very good.
That is Catholic tradition. It’s not just about latin. It’s about being faithful to the 2000 year old institution of the Church. Not to be taken in by every wind of doctrine like our Protestant friends, not to discard Catholic teaching and morality to be in step with whatever modern contrivance is out there. To be traditional is to be Catholic.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Could not have said it better myself. I am not asking anyone to receive Communion keeling and on the tongue if they want to stand and receive in the hand. Can’t do that at my parish (kneeling). Can do at the indult parish where the communion rails were not ripped out. A simple thing, a really simple thing such as kneeling to receive Communion…I can receive on the tongue but I cannot kneel at my parish. (Yes, Bp. Basil I know about the traditions of the East - no need to take me to task about that).
Kneeling and receiving Holy Communion on the tongue was the norm until the mid-70s even with the NO. Forty years of being told to “shut up” and “accept” things which are without rhyme or reason is one of the reasons for this thread. What is so wrong about kneeling and receiving on the tongue?
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fish90
Guest
Two words…Swine Flu.
A lot of people forget that the greatest Saints cared for lepers without any care to their health, but swine flu is the next plague you know
.
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Jacafamala
Guest
That’s correct. All to the honor and glory of God. Every lil scrap of it.
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Jacafamala
Guest
Well then that’s a good reason, but perhaps just every so often you could go instead of your regular. I honestly think it would be a good thing for you to do.
You need this.
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CradleCath
Guest
I hope it isn’t closed, Brother. The question you asked is a fair question. However, it hasn’t been answered. Do you remember the post that mentioned “triumphalism”? There is your answer. We feel good about the Motu Proprio, especially those of us who had experienced the Latin Mass for years before the council. We feel both redeemed & justified. For 40 yrs., if we said anything to anyone about the “old” Mass we were ridiculed & called schismatic, we were told we were not able to “adjust”…etc. My siblings do not even know that I attend the TLM. I’ve been attending the Tridentine Mass exdlusively for about a year & a half, yet I haven’t told them, it’s just best not to.
I don’t know about you, but I DO believe that it’s a better Mass than the Novus Ordo. There I’ve said it. IMO, it more completely embraces** all **of Catholicism, the Ordinary of the Mass has prayers that are definitely more pious than those in the N.O., the Roman Canon & it’s devotion to the Communion of Saints, etc. To me, the TLM exhibits a healthy but intense regret for failing God as often as we do. I have not found that in the 40 years that I attended the NO.
Now, I sincerely hope that those of you who love & attend the Novus Ordo Mass weekly, even daily…I hope that you also consider your Mass superior to any other…to the TLM., to the Eastern rites, etc. If you don’t why would you attend it? We actually have a choice now.
I came to Catholic Answers because it had a forum for what I thought would be “Traditional Catholicism”. I have many things to share with people who attend the TLM, I have questions, etc., but I’ve learned not to do that here. For instance, today I wanted to discuss the Latin Rite Missal of 1962 & learn whether most of “us” go to the Collect section to pray the Collect of the day, same in reference to the secrets, etc. I wanted to know if anyone but me felt like I was causing a disturbance by leafing through my Missal too much. My questions have now been asked & can be found in a thread of argument & confrontation.
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Frbrendan
Guest
So, your “valid reasons” outweigh your love of the E.F. is that correct? Then forgive me, but those valid reasons must rank pretty high. Is someone holding a gun to your head? Or a knife at your back?
If you are married, and/or have children, then I am able to comprehend that you want to go to church with wife and kids, make sure they get to Sunday School, and so forth. I could even see a good reason if your wife threatens to divorce you if you ever go to another Latin Mass again. Otherwise, your argument falls flat on its face.
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bpbasilphx
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\Now, I sincerely hope that those of you who love & attend the Novus Ordo Mass weekly, even daily…I hope that you also consider your Mass superior to any other…to the TLM., to the Eastern rites, etc. If you don’t why would you attend it? We actually have a choice now.\
**I hold with the various Popes who have clearly taught that all authorized Liturgies of the Church are equal. I prefer the seamless skein of song the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Gregory the Theologian become. (I cannot speak about the other Eastern Liturgies since I just don’t know them.)
It’s also easier for me to go without the book as much as possible. Of course, if I’m Cantor, my eyes seldom would leave the book, but that’s another issue. When I’m among the faithful, I prefer to sing by heart.
My only problem with the Extraordinary Form is (as I’ve frequently said) I’d like to say, or even better to sing, the responses without being glared at by others. That is something I miss with it: audible responses from the faithful.**
**I hold with the various Popes who have clearly taught that all authorized Liturgies of the Church are equal. I prefer the seamless skein of song the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Gregory the Theologian become. (I cannot speak about the other Eastern Liturgies since I just don’t know them.)
It’s also easier for me to go without the book as much as possible. Of course, if I’m Cantor, my eyes seldom would leave the book, but that’s another issue. When I’m among the faithful, I prefer to sing by heart.
My only problem with the Extraordinary Form is (as I’ve frequently said) I’d like to say, or even better to sing, the responses without being glared at by others. That is something I miss with it: audible responses from the faithful.**
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Nowhere_Man
Guest
Huh, at my EF parish the faithful say the responses; either that or the choir is just so loud it sounds like they do.
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peary1
Guest
You have hit many nails on the head here. I too remember the Tridentine Liturgy, had my St. Joseph Missal so that I could follow along, remember the great music and specifically Catholic hymns that were sung back then, and yet, for those of us who still have fondness for these memories and are able to participate once again in a way that was literally ripped from our souls, we are poked fun at, verbally assaulted not only in some of these forums but outside in the so-called ‘Catholic’ world.
Now that the Holy Father has once again permitted us a voice, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth among some of the most arrogant human beings who call themselves Catholic Christians and who have the audacity to walk into a Catholic Church without forethought that the walls could (or should) fall upon them.
Protestant converts who rail against the use of Latin in the Latin rite? Are you joking in your stupidity or what? Vatican II CALLS FOR the continuation of Latin in the Latin rite. Otherwise, why even refer to it as the Latin Rite?
‘Easterners’ have no business telling us that, for centuries, the Mass as celebrated in the West has been illicit and invalid. Stay on your side of the fence. The West has never accused your liturgies as being either illicit or invalid. We recognize a valid priesthood and valid sacraments. What is your problem, anyway? Maybe the East has made its bed with national governments.
Post-Vatican II arrogance makes me want to do this
Do you think that those of us who participated in the Latin liturgy were stupid? Ignorant? What type of judgment on your part is THAT all about? I am so tired of having the post-Vats (as I call them - vats of drivel) tell us about all the things we did wrong in our worship of God, how the liturgy back then was wrong, how it chained the Church down for centuries, etc. etc. blah blah blah. Give me a break already. And yes, I have been ‘corrected’ that the ‘correct’ title is the Ordinary Form of the Mass (not Novus Order, although I distinctly remember it being called Novus Order back then). How stupid it THAT? To tell us something we know is not true?I do worship via the NOVUS ORDO (or Ordinary Form
) and there are many changes that I agree with. There are many I do not; however, it is something you can live with because one has no choice in the matter. It may take another generation, maybe two (another 50 years) to straighten things out again, but I think we are on the right track. God has the patience of a saint…oh, wait…I’m sure someone will correct me on THAT too!
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ibkc
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We do too, at my parish. I’m told it’s called a “response mass”. I quite like it.
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Nowhere_Man
Guest
:bowdown:This was fantastic!:clapping:You have hit many nails on the head here. I too remember the Tridentine Liturgy, had my St. Joseph Missal so that I could follow along, remember the great music and specifically Catholic hymns that were sung back then, and yet, for those of us who still have fondness for these memories and are able to participate once again in a way that was literally ripped from our souls, we are poked fun at, verbally assaulted not only in some of these forums but outside in the so-called ‘Catholic’ world.
Now that the Holy Father has once again permitted us a voice, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth among some of the most arrogant human beings who call themselves Catholic Christians and who have the audacity to walk into a Catholic Church without forethought that the walls could (or should) fall upon them.
Protestant converts who rail against the use of Latin in the Latin rite? Are you joking in your stupidity or what? Vatican II CALLS FOR the continuation of Latin in the Latin rite. Otherwise, why even refer to it as the Latin Rite?
‘Easterners’ have no business telling us that, for centuries, the Mass as celebrated in the West has been illicit and invalid. Stay on your side of the fence. The West has never accused your liturgies as being either illicit or invalid. We recognize a valid priesthood and valid sacraments. What is your problem, anyway? Maybe the East has made its bed with national governments.
Post-Vatican II arrogance makes me want to do this
I do worship via the NOVUS ORDO (or Ordinary Form
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ibkc
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Tell us how you REALLY feel, peary1!
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bpbasilphx
Guest
I am very glad to hear that. Alas, it’s not been my experience.
And I’ve gathered it’s NOT the general rule, either.
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