Why all the objection to traditionalism?

[fish90]

I do not think that Vatican II was instituted in order to ruin the Church. I do not believe that the Vatican II participators would see a world filled with the immorality as it does today. When you make a case like this please do not ignore Africa and Asia. They have a lot of vocations these days. It seems America’s wealth has hurt it spiritually.

 

[MonFrere]

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Well let us judge Vatican II by its stated goals.

The Catholic Church is WORLDWIDE. Your statistics were only U.S. statistics.

I think IF you look for WORLDWIDE statistics the outcome of the numbers is going to be different.

ALSO – IF you compare statistics to religion is 1st world countries against 2nd and 3rd world countries I think a good case can be make for materialism and relativism as being the real culprits of our declining numbers. Vocations is Africa are great and they happened to be part of our planet before and after Vatican II.

It’s not the statistics that lie – it’s the interpretation of the statistics that is suspect here.

All this BTW – is why I, and many others have look at “traditionalists” negatively. You’re ability to look at all the data is biased by your desire to prove a false claim against and Ecumenical Council of the Church.

MonFrere

 

[bpbasilphx]

]

I hope you’re right about the Church itself, but most people here DO object to Traditional Catholicism.

A couple of questions.

1. Can you give the name of ONE person here who has objected to traditionalism?
2. What do YOU, CradleCath mean by “traditionalism?” Maybe it’s only YOUR definition of it that’s being objected to.

Peole here and elsewhere have complained about how the Church has been going down the tubes since the loss of the Traditional Latin Mass since Vatican 2.

There are likewise Protestants who complain about the mooshiness of evangelicalism since other translations of the Bible began to displace the KJV.

And there are Orthodox who complain about the lack of piety since the introduction of the New Calendar.

All three are examples of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

 

[marchoi]

Ugh. Where is the charity, people? You wonder why people ‘object to traditionalism’? I repeat, people object not so much to traditionalism, but to traditionalists. And you wonder why…

 

[Lamentabili]

The Catholic Church is WORLDWIDE. Your statistics were only U.S. statistics.

I think IF you look for WORLDWIDE statistics the outcome of the numbers is going to be different.

Is the situation in Europe any better? South America? These are the primary areas where the Latin Rite was in use. JPII said Europe is in a state of “silent apostasy”. In South America we are losing Catholics to Protestant sects daily.

ALSO – IF you compare statistics to religion is 1st world countries against 2nd and 3rd world countries I think a good case can be make for materialism and relativism as being the real culprits of our declining numbers. Vocations is Africa are great and they happened to be part of our planet before and after Vatican II.

Please cite statistics and demonstrate that the state of the Church in Africa is better post Vatican II. I would argue that the false ecumenism prevalent after the Council has lead to indifferentism and hurt the Church’s missionary efforts.

It’s not the statistics that lie – it’s the interpretation of the statistics that is suspect here.

How can anyone look at the statistics I cited and seriously claim that Vatican II succeeded in any of its stated goals?

All this BTW – is why I, and many others have look at “traditionalists” negatively. You’re ability to look at all the data is biased by your desire to prove a false claim against and Ecumenical Council of the Church.

You still have not answered my question as to where the Church has stated that ecumenical Councils are beyond criticism. Especially since the current Pope has criticized Vatican II.

Are you leery of Pope Benedict because of his statement below??

“Certainly the results of [Vatican II] seem cruelly opposed to the expectations of everyone… I am repeating what I said ten years after the conclusion of the work: [It] is incontrovertible that this period has definitely been unfavorable for the Church.” - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, L’Osservatore Romano, English Edition, December 24, 1984.

 

[MonFrere]

Is the situation in Europe any better? South America? These are the primary areas where the Latin Rite was in use. JPII said Europe is in a state of “silent apostasy”. In South America we are losing Catholics to Protestant sects daily.

From my reading the reason we are losing members in South America is because of Protestant Pentecostals. I think you would have a point if what Catholics were moving toward something more akin toward what they already had. But this isn’t the case. They are moving toward a religion that’s far more outwardly demonstrative – in other words, they are not moving toward the direction that they missed, a direction that more like the pre-VCII times, and are trying to hold on to it, they are moving far beyond it IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

I think we are in a time of “pruning”. I think the Church of the 40’s and 50’s was filled because of the need people had for religion having just weathered the Great Depression that surrounded two World Wars. So, the Church was full of people. After that much destruction and anguish – it’s no wonder. The 60’s brought the sexual revolution - the “pill” - the anti-establishment radicalism on the college campus – the civil rights revolution – and generally, great unrest. It was during all this unrest that Vatican Council II was called. Society was generally in a state of unrest and that attitude was certainly one that was felt by all Americans. But the 60’s gave way to the 70’s which gave us Roe v Wade and the economic turbulence of OPEC and the Iranian Hostage Crisis, America’s self–confidence was very low. To view Vatican Council II in an isolated bubble without looking at it in the context of the times of which it was born in my view demonstrates great ignorance. The 80’s and 90’s brought the U.S. unprecedented wealth but also a great loss in religious fervor. This fervor again was society wide – it was not unique to the Catholic Church. I do not think enough people see that the Catholic Church lives in a world that even in St. Paul’s day was called this present evil world. This society has a profound effect on the people who live in it; including every Catholic. Every Catholic was beaten down by the events I listed above. The reason Vatican Council II didn’t have the immediate impact it had hoped for was because of the effect that society was pounding into our psyche and because there was not enough conversion in the people in our country to resist it. But one think I will NOT do is to blame the Popes of these years since the 30’s and the traditional Latin Mass for not properly preparing the people spiritually for the age that was about to pounce upon them. BUT I think that Vatican Council II is going to be cause of our cure instead of the cause of our failure as you see it. We have had holy popes with true vision but IMO it is the laity that needs to step to the plate and through a deeper and deeper conversion of heart mind and soul become the body of Christ. Blaming all this on an Ecumenical Council of the Church and the order of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is totally wrongheaded in my view. I think the Church today would be worse off without being shaken up by Vatican Council II. AT LEAST it woke us up. Now that we’re awake – I think we have to be alert to the REAL PROBLEMS we face to counter the effects of THIS PRESENT EVIL WORLD and admit its effect on us instead of putting blame on Holy Mother Church and her vision on making the Church prepared to face the modern world – which it what I recall was the purpose of the Council; not to increase the statistics that outwardly favor the Church.

If I have time I’ll answer your other concerns tomorrow.

MonFrere

 

[pnewton]

I hope you’re right about the Church itself, but most people here DO object to Traditional Catholicism.

I find your opinion to be rather unsupportable. The first post mentioned a red badge of courage. I thought at the time that it was ironic at the time to say those who object to traditionalism had that kind of outlook.

 

[pnewton]

The statistics don’t lie.

Statistics can be false, biased and they can support false conclusions. Yes, they can be said to lie.

 

[pnewton]

How can anyone look at the statistics I cited and seriously claim that Vatican II succeeded in any of its stated goals?

How? By looking beyond the statistcs fed by one person, or one group and the conclusions draws by that group.

Basically, it takes an open mind.

 

[CradleCath]

I pretty much agree with you. But I want to note that appreciating silence, being willing to work hard for the faith, fasting, confessions - basically, being a faithful, devout Catholic - does not have to mean preferring the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. A Catholic can be devout and faithful and prefer the Ordinary Form, properly celebrated, even in (gasp!) the vernacular. That said, a faithful Catholic cannot, should not, reject

the Extraordinary Form or the use of Latin, or any other approved, properly celebrated Eucharistic Liturgy of the Catholic Church.

]Lest anyone misread my post, a faithful Catholic can of course have a preference for the Extraordinary Form - or for the Byzantine Rite or any other approved, properly celebrated Eucharistic Liturgy of the Church./QUOTE]

Of course they can. No one has ever said different. What a faithful Catholic canNOT be is in opposition to the Pope on serious matters. It’s obvious that he wants to save the TLM., so I believe that anyone who truly considers themself a devout Catholic & have never attended the Traditional Latin Mass should do so. IMO., they should do so with an open mind & heart & do so several times. If it just proves impossible for them to pray this Mass, so be it. They will know, at least, a little bit about it & maybe they might even feel the glory of worship inherent in this Mass. As I said earlier (or maybe in a different post), I was in my mid 20’s when I started attending the Novus Ordo Mass, so I believe that I can make a valid choice having prayed both Masses for many years each.

 

[Bbigam]

Of course they can. No one has ever said different. What a faithful Catholic canNOT be is in opposition to the Pope on serious matters. It’s obvious that he wants to save the TLM., so I believe that anyone who truly considers themself a devout Catholic & have never attended the Traditional Latin Mass should do so. IMO., they should do so with an open mind & heart & do so several times. If it just proves impossible for them to pray this Mass, so be it. They will know, at least, a little bit about it & maybe they might even feel the glory of worship inherent in this Mass. As I said earlier (or maybe in a different post), I was in my mid 20’s when I started attending the Novus Ordo Mass, so I believe that I can make a valid choice having prayed both Masses for many years each.

 

[MonFrere]

Of course they can. No one has ever said different. What a faithful Catholic canNOT be is in opposition to the Pope on serious matters. It’s obvious that he wants to save the TLM., so I believe that anyone who truly considers themself a devout Catholic & have never attended the Traditional Latin Mass should do so. IMO., they should do so with an open mind & heart & do so several times. If it just proves impossible for them to pray this Mass, so be it. They will know, at least, a little bit about it & maybe they might even feel the glory of worship inherent in this Mass. As I said earlier (or maybe in a different post), I was in my mid 20’s when I started attending the Novus Ordo Mass, so I believe that I can make a valid choice having prayed both Masses for many years each.

 

[CradleCath]

Statistics don’t lie, just those who use them and do not really know what statistics really can tell them.

Statistics can not prove a cause especially for complex constructs.

As Mark Twain said, “There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

There’s not much I can say to one who remains in denial when they are proven wrong, except that those who are unable to face facts are bound to repeat every mistake they’ve made.

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;6105605:

CradleCath,

I have friends that attend the EF and demonstrate your attitude. We get along very well. There are occasions when I ask them liturgical questions and we share our faith very very easily with each other. There’s no more difference between you and me than a Polish Catholic and an Italian Catholic – we simply have some different ways between and when you get down to it – I think that is one of the beauties that God has put into the human family. These differences demonstrates the glory of God in the way various peoples reflect their adoration.

MonFrere

Thank you, MonFrere.

 

[MonFrere]

There’s not much I can say to one who remains in denial when they are proven wrong, except that those who are unable to face facts are bound to repeat every mistake they’ve made.

I think the problem here is that we need to go deeper into the facts than the superficial numbers that have been posted. A couple posters, including myself, have offered that the problems of society in general MUST be part of the mix.

Perhaps the example of the Black Death can give us some point of reference. Superficially, you could blame the rats – further inspection lead one to see it was the fleas on the rats – and even further inspection would lead to better sanitation systems. IMO – the first article that only showed the declining numbers is at the IT’S THE RATS level of discovery.

I think those who quote Pope Benedict do deserve an answer. However, I’ve been reading lately of Pope Benedict’s biblical theology and his thought is very layered; and because of this can be easily taken out of context. Since I do not think in the comprehensive way that Pope Benedict does it may take me a while to give a proper answer.

MonFrere

 

[Lamentabili]

Interesting take…

U.S. Catholicism: Decline and Fall

 

[fish90]

I think a good other objection to traditionalism comes from the lies “Traditionalists” who are really dissenters say. People read what they say and associate being traditional with being on of those people.

Some examples:
1.) Novus Ordo is invalid---- not in the least
2.) Archbishop Bugnini was a Free mason or Protestant and fell out of favor with the Church—nothing proves this other than his demotion.
3.) Vatican II ruined the Church— a lot of other reasons can be attributed to the problems in the Church today.
4.) Vatican II aimed to break away with tradition---- its documents say no
5.) Modernists took over the Church---- ok updating is good but the EF is in use along with kneeling for Communion
6.) EWTN is taken over by the heretical modernists-------OK

The sad thing is people read these lies and trust them and fall out of favor with the Church.

 

[CappaMagna]

Before the MP it seems like there were always small “traditionalist” groups around talking about the Tridentine Mass. I don’t remember any of them ever preparing a proposal for the bishop or anything like that, mostly it seems because they were sure it would be rejected. They just seemed to vent a great deal of anger.

Then the MP was released. We heard immediate cries from these groups that the bishop was sure to be an obstruction and that they would never get their vaunted EF Masses. The cries stopped after a week when the bishop named strategically located parishes that would offer the EF, replete with trained celebrants and supplies.

It’s been a few years now. The EF Masses never really took off even though they are offered in prime locations at prime times. The good part is that we no longer hear the anger from these groups that we used to hear and I think in turn, fewer people would be apt to criticize them (and “traditionalism”) in return.

 

[Jacafamala]

Jacafalama - Ralph? Well I suppose. Hrolf is the ancient Viking variant of Rudolph. Modern equivalent is Rolf in German.

Well? Well??? Are you going to try it out? Maybe just every so often? I really think you should, because who has placed this longing in your heart? Maybe Our Lord wants you there.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Well? Well??? Are you going to try it out? Maybe just every so often? I really think you should, because who has placed this longing in your heart? Maybe Our Lord wants you there.

I am planning a trip down to St. Patrick’s in New Orleans after New Year’s but well before Mardi Gras. I want to take my sons to hear a Missa Cantata.