Why all the objection to traditionalism?

[jewells17]

Call me a rebel, Bishop. As a southerner, you should understand that…you know, the War of Northern Aggression and all that.

There are some who state that Latin is superior. I am not one of them It is part of our western heritage. Our Anglican brethren did a really spiffy job of translating Latin into Elizabethan English. Translations are spot on. But for me (as a cathedral chorister who had to sing them, “Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory” is not “Pange Lingua Gloriosi” on Holy Thursday) it is like taking a shower with a raincoat on.

I keep alive my Southern heritage and I keep alive my Catholic heritage. That’s what it is all about for me. We threw the baby with the bath water out in 1967 and with all due respect, Bishop, the Eastern church did not. I simply do not understand why you and others can say that the abuses I have seen in the last 40+ years are OK.

Brotherhrolf…have you heard of Father Price…the Tar Heel Apostle? I just got his book and he gave my great-aunt a rosary and asked her to pray to God for discernment regarding becoming a nun. Well…she did become a very holy nun. That was down South in North Carolina. I would love to learn more about Catholicism in the South. My family was from Greenville,NC and started a convent and gave the land for St. Peters. I am so glad to be back home in the Catholic Church…just a little surprised at how much it changed in 35 years!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There’s not much I can say to one who remains in denial when they are proven wrong, except that those who are unable to face facts are bound to repeat every mistake they’ve made.

You would make me laugh except for how sad it is that you have been so mislead.

You have proven nothing except for, at best, your naivete.

Just to provide some education, statistics are not facts.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think the problem here is that we need to go deeper into the facts than the superficial numbers that have been posted. A couple posters, including myself, have offered that the problems of society in general MUST be part of the mix.

No, the biggest part of the problem is the view that statistics, or as you say the superficial numbers, are facts. They are not. The only fact of them is that they are the numbers or statistics of those who left religious life/priesthood.

No on disputes that. It is then say that this proves something that there is no way to know that it proves. It is, as I and others have said, the basic logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, for those who do not know Latin that is “After this, therefore because of this.”

A like argument I could make which is fully born out by the statistics is that the intake of water kills. Every person, every living thing, that has died has done so after the intake of water so that must mean, according to the 100% statistic, that water kills.

 

[MonFrere]

“Certainly the results of [Vatican II] seem cruelly opposed to the expectations of everyone… I am repeating what I said ten years after the conclusion of the work: [It] is incontrovertible that this period has definitely been unfavorable for the Church.” - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, L’Osservatore Romano, English Edition, December 24, 1984.

Here is another quote of Cardinal Ratzinger AFTER becoming Pope Benedict XVI.

The Pope is not an absolute monarch whose thoughts and desires are law. On the contrary; the Pope’s ministry is a guarantee of obedience to Christ and to his Word. He must not proclaim his own ideas, but rather constantly bind himself and the Church to obedience to God’s Word, in the face of every attempt to adapt it or water it down, and every form of opportunism.

So, I think here the man, Joseph Ratzinger, is saying as Pope Benedict he acts not according to his “own ideas” but to obedience to God’s Word. Yes, as the man, Joseph Ratzinger has stated his opinion openly. I will also say that as Joseph Ratzinger, the Cardinal, he is very clear NOT to blame the council itself for what has happened after the council. He has said “the time after the council” has not been favorable. No reason is postulated as to why. Someone yesterday did post that a quote that, if I remember it correctly, said that that we faced a liturgical crisis that needed addressed. Could someone find that quote? So, what I’m going to posit is this. If Pope Benedict (not Joseph Ratzinger) sees that liturgical change is needed then he is bound by obedience to God’s Word to correct what needs corrected. I would say with his awesome grasp of the history and the theology of the Church and his wide experience in the ECF and how they thought about “the Christ-event”, as he puts it, he is uniquely qualified to know the difference between his personal preferences and obedience to God’s Word. I know Pope Benedict sees the liturgy as very central to Catholic life through his writings. So, if changes are to be made - he is the man to make the changes.

Also, if his approach to liturgy mirrors his approach to the historical-critical method of biblical criticism he will seek to “purify” and not “eliminate”. Because I see our current Pope as a very holy man I welcome any change he’d want to bring to make our liturgy reflect the needs of the liturgy as he sees it. However, like I said, his thinking is very layered - not really nuanced as layered and I think it is because of the way he things that will bring about any changes in the liturgy that need made. MAYBE the changes will include changes is BOTH the OF and the EF. That wouldn’t be a surprise to me, either.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

No, the biggest part of the problem is the view that statistics, or as you say the superficial numbers, are facts. They are not. The only fact of them is that they are the numbers or statistics of those who left religious life/priesthood.

I think we’re both pointed in the same direction, only your use of language is more precise. However, I can see how the need for precise language is important on this point.

MonFrere

 

[CradleCath]

I think a good other objection to traditionalism comes from the lies “Traditionalists” who are really dissenters say. People read what they say and associate being traditional with being on of those people.

Some examples:
1.) Novus Ordo is invalid---- not in the least
2.) Archbishop Bugnini was a Free mason or Protestant and fell out of favor with the Church—nothing proves this other than his demotion.
3.) Vatican II ruined the Church— a lot of other reasons can be attributed to the problems in the Church today.
4.) Vatican II aimed to break away with tradition---- its documents say no
5.) Modernists took over the Church---- ok updating is good but the EF is in use along with kneeling for Communion
6.) EWTN is taken over by the heretical modernists-------OK

The sad thing is people read these lies and trust them and fall out of favor with the Church.

When I hear things like this, when Novus Ordo Catholics just deny statistics, when they say that the Church in the U.S. is blooming…that’s when I lose respect for those who favor modernism. Let’s start with some TRUTHS.

I am a Traditionalist, I attend the E.F. exclusively & I love it.

1. I believe that the Novus Ordo is valid & licit.
2. I don’t believe (or disbelieve) the various conspiracy theories offered about Archbishop Bugnini. He is dead & the deed is done. I DO believe that he was arrogant & I do believe that his interpretation of the Mass as a Communal Supper has done damage to the Church.
3. I don’t believe that ANYTHING “ruined” the Church. I DO believe that the council has caused havoc, disorder & rejection of the Church because it’s documents are filled with loopholes & contradictions. They are way too ‘open-ended’
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4. Vatican II DID break away from tradtition, especially regarding the Mass. The Sacrificial aspect of the Mass was suppressed.
5. Modernists TRIED to force their view down everyone’s throat. They failed, as God is always with His Chruch.
6. This is a new one for me. I like EWTN!!

Again, if those opposed to traditionalism…which is what this thread is about…continue to make ridiculous statements (statistics are meaningless, people use them to perpetuate lies, etc., ETC.), it tells me that they are (& I’ll try to phrase this kindly) **uniformed **about their own faith. I cannot respect Catholics who don’t even try to find the truth but continue upon their own little journey oblivious to the fact that their Church is just now coming out of a dangerous period that has lasted 40 yrs.

When Mass attendance is so low that only a small percentage of Catholics attend every Sunday & Holy Day…

When the Confessions lines are short & the Communion lines are long…

When gay priests who molest young boys are protected & hidden by our own hierarchy…

When the laity fills the Sancutary & the regional shortage of priests becomes a problem…

When the laity AND the clergy think that it’s degrading for people to kneel & receive the Body of Christ…

When our elementary schools have gone from thriving, educational & CATHOLIC institutions to almost non-existent…

When all of this & MORE has happened in the past 40+ years & Catholics try to blame it on “society”…they don’t seem to realize that the Church, until this century, has LED society, not follwed it …when all of this has happened & the Catholic in the pew tries to deny it & says that “we’re just fine”…I cannot respect his/her opinion. I DO try to be kind & explain that though I find the TLM. to be a superior Mass, I hope that all on these forums find their own Mass, whether it be NO., TLM., or Eastern, to also be superior. However, views like so many Novus Ordo people give (& this is not just drected at the OP.) with no back-up, no proof, nothing but opinion stated as if it’s a fact, I just want to give up & become what they THINK I am.

People it’s true that statistics can be skewed. The statistics given to you on this thread…are NOT skewed. They give a picture of the truth. If you can show me statistics that show a prospering of the Catholic Church in the US., during the past 40 years, believe me I’ll give them an objective viewing.

 

[Jacafamala]

I am planning a trip down to St. Patrick’s in New Orleans after New Year’s but well before Mardi Gras. I want to take my sons to hear a Missa Cantata.

There you go.

 

[Jacafamala]

I think a good other objection to traditionalism comes from the lies “Traditionalists” who are really dissenters say. People read what they say and associate being traditional with being on of those people.

Some examples:
1.) Novus Ordo is invalid---- not in the least
2.) Archbishop Bugnini was a Free mason or Protestant and fell out of favor with the Church—nothing proves this other than his demotion.
3.) Vatican II ruined the Church— a lot of other reasons can be attributed to the problems in the Church today.
4.) Vatican II aimed to break away with tradition---- its documents say no
5.) Modernists took over the Church---- ok updating is good but the EF is in use along with kneeling for Communion
6.) EWTN is taken over by the heretical modernists-------OK

The sad thing is people read these lies and trust them and fall out of favor with the Church.

Oh, man what a relief to know all this. And I thought we had problems.

 

[Monica4316]

I’m in my early 20s and a convert from evangelical Protestantism… and I love the TLM and the traditions of the Church I also attend a Novus Ordo parish

 

[brotherhrolf]

Wow! I am a “dissenter”! Well, that is news to me and would be to my parents were they still alive. I have consistently made the point for years on this forum that we submitted to the magesterium of HMC and that we did not have a voice. We were marginalized to indult parishes at best or have had to drive long distances to find a reverent NO.

I don’t believe the NO is invalid. I have never said that. What does Archbishop Bugnini have to do with anything going on in our parishes? Vatican II radically changed the church but the last time I looked HMC was still the bride of Christ. You are absolutely right the documents from Vatican II don’t break with tradition, so why is Gregorian chant so rare in most of our parishes today?

Sweet. That answer tells me a lot. Let me find my Che Guevara hat and the next time I see an abuse in church I will jump up with my fist in the air and shout “Viva la Revoluccion!”
Dissenters…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Wow! I am a “dissenter”! Well, that is news to me and would be to my parents were they still alive. I have consistently made the point for years on this forum that we submitted to the magesterium of HMC and that we did not have a voice. We were marginalized to indult parishes at best or have had to drive long distances to find a reverent NO.

I don’t believe the NO is invalid. I have never said that. What does Archbishop Bugnini have to do with anything going on in our parishes? Vatican II radically changed the church but the last time I looked HMC was still the bride of Christ. You are absolutely right the documents from Vatican II don’t break with tradition, so why is Gregorian chant so rare in most of our parishes today?

Sweet. That answer tells me a lot. Let me find my Che Guevara hat and the next time I see an abuse in church I will jump up with my fist in the air and shout “Viva la Revoluccion!”
Dissenters…

No one, as far as I can tell, said that you were any one of these things.

They stated that these things are what many of us find objectionable in some users who claim the title traditionalist. I might add that not many who are truly traditionalist seem to refute them around here.

It seems that you might have a thin skin when people are discussing what it is about many traditionalists that they find objectionable and then jump to the conclusion that they find all traditionalism objectionable.

 

[JustaServant]

I think a good other objection to traditionalism comes from the lies “Traditionalists” who are really dissenters say. People read what they say and associate being traditional with being on of those people.

Some examples:
1.) Novus Ordo is invalid---- not in the least
2.) Archbishop Bugnini was a Free mason or Protestant and fell out of favor with the Church—nothing proves this other than his demotion.
3.) Vatican II ruined the Church— a lot of other reasons can be attributed to the problems in the Church today.
4.) Vatican II aimed to break away with tradition---- its documents say no
5.) Modernists took over the Church---- ok updating is good but the EF is in use along with kneeling for Communion
6.) EWTN is taken over by the heretical modernists-------OK

The sad thing is people read these lies and trust them and fall out of favor with the Church.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and you really need to research what tradition is before posting.

 

[CappaMagna]

Wow! I am a “dissenter”! Well, that is news to me and would be to my parents were they still alive. I have consistently made the point for years on this forum that we submitted to the magesterium of HMC and that we did not have a voice. We were marginalized to indult parishes at best or have had to drive long distances to find a reverent NO.

I don’t believe the NO is invalid. I have never said that. What does Archbishop Bugnini have to do with anything going on in our parishes? Vatican II radically changed the church but the last time I looked HMC was still the bride of Christ. You are absolutely right the documents from Vatican II don’t break with tradition, so why is Gregorian chant so rare in most of our parishes today?

Sweet. That answer tells me a lot. Let me find my Che Guevara hat and the next time I see an abuse in church I will jump up with my fist in the air and shout “Viva la Revoluccion!”
Dissenters…

What I find amusing about your posting is that you try to equate traditionalism with reverence and the two are simply not synonymous.

A “reverent NO Mass?” By whose standards? The Church’s or your own? Why is GC so rare in the Church? Perhaps because most people do not prefer it or are not willing to sacrifice what it takes to get good GC so one of the licit options is exercised in its place?

Around here the EF Mass is a low Mass and it has been ever since the MP. Why? Well, they tried to gather the resources for a missa cantata but they couldn’t afford to hire an organist because their weekly plate is so low.

 

[Patrick_Eastin]

Since the level of charity has declined on this thread and the topic is not being discussed, this thread is closed.

Thanks to all who participated.