Why Am I for nationa healthcare?

[LittleSoldier]

I guess my point here is that your situation may not be the norm for most Americans (not to belittle your situation).

I would agree that it is not the norm for most Americans but it is the norm for a large number of Americans. I also wonder how many people find themselves in something close to my situation though not exactly the same situation, with the net result being that they don’t pay income tax. I have absolutely no idea why it is set up so that I don’t pay income tax.

I would also like to point out that the government gets their money whether it be in income tax, property taxes (which I pay) or sales tax (which doesn’t exist in my state). Whether it is simply paying a tax directly to the government or is a payment to a landlord who is passing on his/her property taxes to his/her tenants (“trickling down”), or paying higher prices at the store in order to cover the store owner’s taxes, we all get stuck with it.

And that’s why there are two sure things in life: we die and we pay taxes.

 

[LittleSoldier]

DEPORT THEM. THEY DID AFTER ALL STEAL INTO A NATION WHERE THEY WERE NOT GIVEN PERMISSION TO DO SO. THEY WERE NOT TOO SICK TO ENTER OUR COUNTRY AND WALK ACROSS OUR BORDERS (RUN EVEN) AND MOST WALKED ACROSS THE DESSERT AS WELL. SORRY, BUT IF YOU WANT TO ENTER MY HOUSE YOU BETTER HAVE PERMISSION FIRST.

I can’t go into my church to kneel quietly in prayer because the doors are usually locked. If I broke in I would be a criminal, not much different than someone who enters my country illegally.

Pharmaceutical companies spend enormous amounts of money in research and development without a guarantee of finding a medicine. Then add to that many of their medicines are stolen and reproduced in other countries and sold as if the real thing.

Take a look at all the General Motors marketing ads. And that company is owned by the US government and the unions. How about attacking them. Or is their form of capitalism better than those who invest in a company and its product and take financial risks the villains now?

The latest profit figures for pharmaceutical companies is about 3% and in fact U.S owned oil companies profits again this year were in the 6% range. Oddity it that foreign pharmaceutical companies profits are greater as are the foreign oil companies.

LYNN…pro capitalist and anti-socialist:thumbsup:

If you find a person extremely ill and lying by the side of the road, what woud you do? Would you ask if that person was an illegal alien? Would you ask if they were well enough to walk across the border (I haven’t been able to determine why anybody would be walking across a dessert - people usually eat those)? If the person admitted he/she was in the US illegally would you insist that the person be deported? Or would you provide emergency medical care?

Your country is not your house and people who are in this country illegally should be deported - I agree with that. But unless I missed something (which is quite possible) even illegal aliens should be provided with emergency medical care before being deported.

The biggest problem I see with providing medical care to illegal aliens is that it is a federal mandate yet the individual states are expected to foot the bill. Federal mandates should be federally funded.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Tell it to Pathia. If it’s that easy to work out payment why has she filed bankruptcy repeatedly over medical bills?

Negotiating a payment with the hospital is definitely the route I would suggest, IF the bill payments were realistically do-able. Unfortunately, hospital bills can be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the patient often has difficulty working after their illness, for instance if they had heart bypass surgery… and if they for instance have another heart attack and return to the hospital then they are really in dire straits financially and in ability to work.
We are *the only country in the Western World *that has this scenario.

One more thing. Even if you are insured now, check your long term disability insurance. How long do you have before it runs out? If you are disabled, you can still lose everything even though you had insurance. - another scenario unique to the United States in the Western World.

What amazes me is how much it costs for small emergencies - those that required a trip to the ER but not much more than that. I cut my hand on a piece of glass when I was carrying a glass object and fell. I needed five stitches in my hand. IMO that is not much of a medical emergency but it was on the weekend and the only place I could go to was the ER. I was charged over $2,000 for the stiches (this includes $400 for removing the stiches a few weeks later).

This injury did require emergency care because I was bleeding badly. But the cost shocked me and now I am attempting to pay using a payment plan while I am also on a payment plan for the doctor visits and lab tests. I don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. I am very afraid that I am going to fall again (I fall down a lot) and get hurt and then what am I going to do? I’m already spending way over what I have allocated for medical costs and every bit of what I pay is going to past medical expenses. I have cut down on visits to my doctor and also have chosen less espensive medications. I also decided not to have a mammogram this year and I know that was a bad decision because preventive care is more affordable in the long run.

So I will have the mammogram and add that expense on to the list of medical expenses I have to pay for on a payment plan.

I wonder what will happen if I really get hurt - I mean need 100 stitches and reconstructive surgery, etc. My deductible is $5,000 and the new year is coming. I never used my insurance in 2009 because I didn’t spend $5,000 (BTW prescriptions don’t count toward the deductible). So I spent about $1,800 in insurance premiums and didn’t use the insurance one time.

 

[Ella]

This is the first time (that I can remember) ever seeing the French system of health care even mentioned. I am going to try to find out more about the French system. Do you have any references that you would recommend to help me? I know I can google and bing it but sometimes it helps to have links and/or other references so that I don’t have to try to find out what is fact and what is simply belief.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me!

Here is a piece about France’s health care system that shows both the pros and cons.

youtube.com/watch?v=uNR_6UuVl4s

 

[Fran65]

how do you know they aren’t?
do you have any data on how many patients doctors see pro bono?.

That’s a good point. We should assume the best of people

I am related to several physicians in a variety of different fields- every single one of them does work free of charge on a per case basis.

Regarding drug costs and the claims made that they are for R & D; I posted this earlier but it is worth posting again:

Large pharmaceutical conglomerates spend 25-30% of their earnings on sales and marketing, and then spend 15% on R & D.’ Former CEO SmithKline Beecham

source:eaepc.org/parallel_distribution/myth.php?n=2

Latest figures available are 2003 - this is what all of the advisors, politicians etc are working with.

 

[Fran65]

Re: French health care:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/799444.stm

french-property.com/guides/france/public-services/health/

businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042070.htm

 

[St_Francis]

…As far as it not having anything to do wit the debate, I was making comparisons. **My mind is comparing and contrasting all my waking hours, **and that will never stop.

I have not read all the comments posted since I left for our Christmas trip, but it seems to me that what you are doing is looking at what others have and what you have not and comparing, comparing, comparing.

What I would highly recommend is prayer. I remember the first time I had a *Really Serious Problem!!! *and our pastor recommended I pray. I had not been back in the Church for very long, and I totally freaked out. Pray!!! I needed some *Action!!! *I couldn’t believe that he didn’t *help *me, but just told me to pray.

I did not understand how prayer works. It’s not that you will necessarily get your heart’s desire, but that you will be putting yourself into the spiritual realm which is really where we belong–we are here only temporarily but there eternally. And you will feel better.

When I was a teen, I remember my friend’s parents came to pick me up to babysit his younger brother. His parents were holding hands and seemed to be really in love. I envied that.

Six months later, they were separated.

We never know what is going on inside those houses. You are sick, and your wife is sick, and my friend’s little boy is sick with leukemia, and there are people around me who are dying… where I live there is a really high percentage of old people.

If you had lived 100 years ago, *no one *would be getting better, and a lot of people now alive would be dead because they had no penicillin. People’s houses were much colder than they are now, and they had to cut, saw, and haul wood or else pay someone else to do it.

Right now, you are so focusing on “comparing and contrasting” your situation with that of what you see of others’ situations that you think it would be better to have a health insurance “solution” which includes the killing of innocent children than to continue your own suffering. I do feel for you–your situation is very difficult and I am sure that you are feeling a lot of fear, but if someone were holding a baby in front of you and said that they could fix all your problems but they’d kill the baby to do it, what would you say?

I have been working on this for a long time; I am not good at remembering or doing it, but when I get emotionally upset–angry, fearful, worried–I try to remember to pray *instead. *If nothing else, the prayers help others, but they do help me. When I contemplate Christ on the Cross, His Passion and death, then it really puts my concerns to rest, even when my concerns are about my husband’s not having worked for months and our getting to the end of what little we saved from before, etc. I remember that things looked really bad for Christ at that time, and that my problems are paltry in comparison.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I take it you are anti government. I mayself I am both anti governeement and anti big business. When a business gets to be a big business it takes on a life of its own, becaomes self prepetuating and serves no pourpose for the greater good, in many cases, which is what has happened to the health insurance industry and is quickly getting that way with pharmasuticals. We are the only country on God’s green Earth that a midical issues can make one end up loosing everything. That is tons more important than platitudes about big governement andand waste and whatever you want to throw in. Did you read the article in the first post of this thread? Lets hear your response to that!

The problem is this:

1. Big business can ruin some people, especially when we’re talking about the high cost of medical care.
2. Big government can ruin everybody, period.

Furthermore, the high cost of medical care is NOT entirely the fault of the super villain “Big Business”. Much of it is caused by fraud and waste in Medicare and Medicaid – which are both examples of the government overstepping its bounds into a field it is not qualified to manage.

If I get time later, I will read the article and respond.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Brendan]

. But I have never seen any poster say that he/she has contributed to a charity or other organization which provides health care for the poor (I may have missed some posts which address this question).

OK how about this.

There is an inner city free clinic in Detroit that is run by the Archdiocese. I do IT work for a living, so I volunteer to do the IT work for this clinic. I have purchased most of the software used out of my own money, or in combination with donations from family and friends.

And while I am there, I will generally spend time watching the little ones and reading to them while mom is in with the doctor.

My father is a ‘retired’ physician who works at this clinic twice a week.

Both of us firmly agree that socialized medicine would be one of the worst things that can be.

We see this in clients who come to the clinic. They have often been treated at the City run hospitals. The medical care is fine, but a secular hospital run by a secular state views the human person as a body to be treated. The Church views the human person who is a union between body and soul and it is the whole person that must be treated.

What place is there in a socialized system for the Doctor to tell the patient that God loves them? What place is there in a State run hospital to tell a woman that their child is really a gift from God, one of the most precious gifts there can be?

It just doesn’t happen.

And that is why God, in His wisdom, called on Peter to “tend my sheep” and not Caesar.

The poor need to look to God and His Church when they are in need, not to rely on the State.

That is what Christ also called for in Matthew 25. It is not enought to stand before God and tell Him that you cared for him when He was sick by writing your local politician to tell him to spend other peoples money.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

What is being done by people who don’t support nationalized (or state-run) medical insurance programs? I run across this all the time in these threads - people who don’t want the government to take their money and use it in ways that are morally unacceptable to the people providing the money. But I have never seen any poster say that he/she has contributed to a charity or other organization which provides health care for the poor (I may have missed some posts which address this question).

Please don’t construe this as any sort of attack on you and others who share your view. Heck, I share your view (at least partly).

**My question (to everybody) is:

What have you done to help people who need health care but are not able to afford insurance or the expense of the medical procedures they need? What I’m looking for are concrete examples and suggestions addressing this problem. What have you, personally, done??**

Is there a Catholic charity which helps poor people who need medical care? What about the City of Hope and the St. Jude hospitals? What have you, personally, done to help correct this problem??

With respect, this question is moot.

The main issue here is not whether people are following up on their Christian duty; it is what is the appropriate solution to the problem. It is inappropriate to install the government as the solution to a matter of charity simply because we don’t live in a “perfect world”.

The argument that, since not many people are charitable, the government should enforce charity is absurd. Once that begins to occur, there is even less motivation for individuals to be charitable because the government “takes care” of everyone. This is tantamount to replacing the Church with the state.

The government’s role is to protect the rights of individuals by a) staying out of the way and b) preventing individuals and organizations from trampling on the rights of others.

No, we don’t have a perfect health care system. But in this imperfect world, we must err on the side of maintaining individual freedoms (as long as they don’t impede the freedoms of others – e.g., the murder of unborn children is not an appropriate “right” to maintain). The more control a government has, the less likely it is to respect human dignity. This has been demonstrated time after time throughout human history and across the spectrum of ideologies and cultures. What makes anyone think it would go differently here? That we are Americans?

Peace,
Dante

 

[aspawloski4th]

The problem is this:

1. Big business can ruin some people, especially when we’re talking about the high cost of medical care.
2. Big government can ruin everybody, period.

Furthermore, the high cost of medical care is NOT entirely the fault of the super villain “Big Business”. Much of it is caused by fraud and waste in Medicare and Medicaid – which are both examples of the government overstepping its bounds into a field it is not qualified to manage.

If I get time later, I will read the article and respond.

Peace,
Dante

Ill use a meteorology analogy here. Big governement is a tropical storm, borderline catagory one hurricane. Big busness is an F5 maxi tornado. The first may damage more people, but the latter detroys all in it’s path.

 

[tjm190]

Ill use a meteorology analogy here. Big governement is a tropical storm, borderline catagory one hurricane. Big busness is an F5 maxi tornado. The first may damage more people, but the latter detroys all in it’s path.

Oh? Despite that the high costs and salaries have been justified, your two major objections, have both been justified?

And quite frankly, I’d take the tornado- since this particular tropical storm passes laws that forbid you from getting out of the way.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Ill use a meteorology analogy here. Big governement is a tropical storm, borderline catagory one hurricane. Big busness is an F5 maxi tornado. The first may damage more people, but the latter detroys all in it’s path.

I’m not sure where you’re going with this- have you changed your position?

You’ve been advocating a big government takeover of healthcare in this country, but now you’re advancing a position that very clearly states big government damages more people than big business.

You even go a step further to weaken your position by stating that big business “destroys all in it’s path” (sic- the word is “its” not it’s). This is insightful because it shows that you’re aware of the fact that we can refuse to participate in those big businesses which prove to be destructive (by getting out of the path of destruction, as you put it), but we cannot get out of the way of the destructive path of big government, because refusal to participate in governmental schemes is punishable by law.

Good point, and I’m relieved to see that you’ve come around.

 

[pathia]

W

No, we don’t have a perfect health care system. But in this imperfect world, we must err on the side of maintaining individual freedoms (as long as they don’t impede the freedoms of others – e.g., the murder of unborn children is not an appropriate “right” to maintain). The more control a government has, the less likely it is to respect human dignity. This has been demonstrated time after time throughout human history and across the spectrum of ideologies and cultures. What makes anyone think it would go differently here? That we are Americans?

Peace,
Dante

I don’t think the insurance industry regards me with any form of dignity, let alone human dignity.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I don’t think the insurance industry regards me with any form of dignity, let alone human dignity.

That may be true, but do you really believe the government healthcare system will do any better?

Even if you present evidence that governments in other countries may provide better care for your condition, that is not an indication that the government in this country will do the same.

It seems to me that advocating this government takeover of medicine puts you at greater risk of never getting adequate care because you are effectively putting all of your eggs in one basket.

At least now there is the hope that a particular state, or a city, an employer, or even (gasp) an insurance company will do the right thing- once the government controls everything, it becomes your only hope. And when it inevitably does lets you down, you will really have reason to be hopeless.

 

[pathia]

That may be true, but do you really believe the government healthcare system will do any better?

Even if you present evidence that governments in other countries may provide better care for your condition, that is not an indication that the government in this country will do the same.

It seems to me that advocating this government takeover of medicine puts you at greater risk of never getting adequate care because you are effectively putting all of your eggs in one basket.

At least now there is the hope that a particular state, or a city, an employer, or even (gasp) an insurance company will do the right thing- once the government controls everything, it becomes your only hope. And when it inevitably does lets you down, you will really have reason to be hopeless.

I’ve lived in 10 different states, nothing’s changed in any of them. It’s always the same.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I’ve lived in 10 different states, nothing’s changed in any of them. It’s always the same.

That doesn’t really speak to the point I was making-

With 50 states, all operating independently, there would be at least 50 different approaches to managing healthcare.

With 1 federal government, forcing all the states to operate in unison, there would be only one approach to managing healthcare.

Buying 50 lottery tickets gives you a better chance of winning than buying just 1.

 

[pathia]

That doesn’t really speak to the point I was making-

With 50 states, all operating independently, there would be at least 50 different approaches to managing healthcare.

With 1 federal government, forcing all the states to operate in unison, there would be only one approach to managing healthcare.

Buying 50 lottery tickets gives you a better chance of winning than buying just 1.

I’ve lived in the most blue states and the most red states in the union, none of them had any options that work. I’m open to suggestions. You keep telling me it’s different ~somewhere~ but don’t offer any real solutions except to keep traveling. I can’t anymore, I’m disabled now.

 

[latin_rite]

Not according to ex-patriots of your country I know.
.

Ask those “ex-patriots” what a whinging pom is. My neice inlaw who just arrived from England about 6 months ago. Says its ok.Not great but still…Better than being told by comapnies “What you haven’t enough money for treatment? too bad go away and die.” What is most shocking is how many Christians here support that kind of mentality. no wonder Christians have a image problem. Ask yourself… What would Jesus do?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Oh? Despite that the high costs and salaries have been justified, your two major objections, have both been justified?

And quite frankly, I’d take the tornado- since this particular tropical storm passes laws that forbid you from getting out of the way.

With an all out F5 tornado everything is flattened in its path, just like our current system is leaving people flattened. I had a feeling my analogy would be byond the comprehension of some here.