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buffalo
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I have simple math.
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SonCatcher
Guest
Only a relatively small portion of those could be considered “unwanted” by the time they’re born (and I have known such a “family”). While those children face a greater likelihood of entering crime, the majority do find some positive way to contribute to society.
We now have 2 generations of abortion in America, so the real loss isn’t 52M aborted, but the children they would have borne, as well (perhaps another 20M).
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BlueEyedLady
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And you think we have a high unemployment rate and a full foster care system now?
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buffalo
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If interestedman starts looking at crime statistics really carefully and see where abortion is really targeted, he will have to admit supporting genocide.
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SonCatcher
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By “many” you mean what? a few thousand? Hardly proportionate.
Even granted that, most (if not all) states allowed emergency procedures that resulted in the unfortunate death of a child before the Supreme Court got involved, so the argument is a non sequitur.
The second point is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what someone does or could-have-done. It only matters who that person is.
The allegation that debate is pointless begs the question: Why, then, do you continue to debate? It is plain you don’t see it as pointless.
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SonCatcher
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I have no idea about the foster care system but the economy would have been bigger and had a larger basis with more people. Thus, the current downturn would likely have been similar.
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Windmill
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To the OP’s original point, I find that many people have a skewed idea about what they are morally obligated to provide for their children. Who wrote it into the natural law that we are required to pay for a child’s entire college expenses? Since when is that something that legitimately gives a couple a reason to space children? The value of an eternal soul that brings others to Christ is infinitely more valuable to society.
My wife and I took out loans for our education, and we are almost done paying it back, but it is not something that has prevented us from living a decent lifestyle with 4 kids. In fact, taking out loans made us work harder for our living after we graduated. It gave us ownership in our education, and so we didn’t take it for granted. We are now starting to save for their college, but we are not planning on having it all paid for.
Our goal, as parents, is to raise saints who will stand by Our Lord in the face of temptation, persecution, and humiliation. Our “success” is measured by how closely our kids walk with christ, not if they have a degree from an ivy league university or make a 6-figured salary.
That does not mean that college expenses are something that will magically appear, but it does mean that a full ride to college is not something that should be expected of parents. There are school loans and scholarships out there to help.
My wife and I took out loans for our education, and we are almost done paying it back, but it is not something that has prevented us from living a decent lifestyle with 4 kids. In fact, taking out loans made us work harder for our living after we graduated. It gave us ownership in our education, and so we didn’t take it for granted. We are now starting to save for their college, but we are not planning on having it all paid for.
Our goal, as parents, is to raise saints who will stand by Our Lord in the face of temptation, persecution, and humiliation. Our “success” is measured by how closely our kids walk with christ, not if they have a degree from an ivy league university or make a 6-figured salary.
That does not mean that college expenses are something that will magically appear, but it does mean that a full ride to college is not something that should be expected of parents. There are school loans and scholarships out there to help.
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edwest2
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Not what I’m saying, but what the Church is teaching. In the 1950s, abortion was illegal, and divorce was rare. I knew a lot of happy kids and families. We also had something that is sorely lacking today: intergenerational ties. You had Grandpa, and Aunt Sophie, and Uncle Steve and the same for the other side of the family. And you had communities with neighbors that were good neighbors, always willing to help and friendly.
No, it was not perfect. We had crime. We had a few known drunks in the neighborhood and a few other bad apples, and busybodies who wanted to know everybody else’s private business. But when me and my mom went to the local corner store, we weren’t just consumers. The owners knew all of us by name. They were nice to us. On occasion, we’d hear: “Did you know Helen is in the hospital?” And my mom would say, “Really? What happened?” WE cared about each other in the community. We did not live like perfect strangers. No, we did not associate with everybody but my parents had certain people in which they confided things or just enjoyed talking to.
That’s missing today. You go to a store and everybody’s just working. No time to talk. And if there’s a problem, they fix it and you leave with your purchase. Fortunately, I’ve gotten to know a few people at one store I go to but they are around my age and know what community and just being friendly means.
What I’m saying is that there is precisely one person that decides when you have sex - you. And there’s no money in self-control. Too many, including Catholics, have become blind to commercials that show young, attractive women who are being encouraged to use “the ring,” followed by a list of side effects. But hey, orgasms are more important, right? Babies? Nope. Maybe one. “I’m young and I’ve got to buy a ton of stuff and do a lot of things so who wants to be responsible for another human being for 18 years? Forget that.”
Peace,
Ed
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lerapt78
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That’s definitely part of it. I guess the number one reason I would give for the drop in fertility is Options - people (especially women) have more options these days, and having 5,6 children isn’t one that many of them will go for.
It IS important for children to be raised in traditional households. Catholics (and other religious groups) advocate this. Instead of using contraception as a fix to absolve people from responsible living, why not implement a standard in the first place and prevent the need for so many problems to be “fixed” later on?
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CrimsonThorn
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Couldnt have said it better.
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mgoforth
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Selfishness is to blame, as it always has been. The birth-rate may be down from the recent trend because of economic factors, and that can be legitimate depending on the family’s situation…but it’s WAY down from where it would be without contraception and abortion.
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edwest2
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Thank you, so very much, for posting that. There are trade schools as well and internships. A couple I know had one daughter, and they helped however they could to get their daughter into a college suitable for her career choice. In the meantime, she worked part time to help cover costs. When I was in college, I worked part time, and even ran a small business during that time. My parents could not help me out except to let me live at home without paying rent. I decided I could save money by not taking a full class load. Adding a few years meant I could spread out expenses and not burn out. It later turned out that me and a friend got only two years of college and he started a business where I was eventually hired on, doing something we both really enjoy.
Planning. Too often, young people spend so much time studying that by the time they get their diploma, it’s, “OK, now where do I get a job?” I told a relative of mine who’s in college now: “If you want to get a job in that field, call a few people who already do that sort of work. I’m sure at least a few can give you some helpful advice.” I said that because sometimes students aren’t sure until Junior year, exactly what their major is going to be.
Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
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Like I wrote elsewhere, the average number of kids in my neighborhood in the mid-1950s was two. Contraception does not fix anything. What it does is prevent the natural functioning of the average married human male and female. It is not health care - it is “I don’t want to have a baby and I’ve been brainwashed into believing I can’t control myself.”
There’s money to be made in contraceptives but none in self-control.
Peace,
Ed
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Crescentinus
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Should I get that odd video called “The Cost of Abortion” and show the entire video in this thread?
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lerapt78
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I’m of a different generation than you edwest, so I won’t contradict your statement as I haven’t observed the families of the 1950’s. I was always under the impression though that the sexagenarians of today have more than one sibling usually.
If people in the fifties were having 2 kids on average though, and people of today are *also *having two kids on average, then how is birth control determined to be a reason for why Americans are having fewer babies? In this case, there would be no drop in fertility from pre to post-contraceptive times
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mgoforth
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I would guess part of the answer was fewer people having children outside of marriage in the 50s.I’m of a different generation than you edwest, so I won’t contradict your statement as I haven’t observed the families of the 1950’s. I was always under the impression though that the sexagenarians of today have more than one sibling usually.
If people in the fifties were having 2 kids on average though, and people of today are *also *having two kids on average, then how is birth control determined to be a reason for why Americans are having fewer babies? In this case, there would be no drop in fertility from pre to post-contraceptive times
So a smaller number of “families” back then, but more children per family??
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lerapt78
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I thought there were more children per family as well, which is why I was surprised to see him say that the families in his neighborhood had 2 children. If families back then typically had 3+ children, then contraception would be one plausible reason for a decline.I would guess part of the answer was fewer people having children outside of marriage in the 50s.
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mgoforth
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Apparently a single neighborhood does not a national average make.
According to a CDC report I found here, the average has declined from 3.5 children per woman in the 1950s to less than 2 now. By the way, this is only one of the many “achievements” in public health listed in this report, such as abortion on demand and government funding for contraception.
Way to go America…
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edwest2
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The birth control of last resort is abortion and there is good evidence that many women have used it for that purpose. So the issue is not fertility - it is preventing fertility or inhibiting it.I’m of a different generation than you edwest, so I won’t contradict your statement as I haven’t observed the families of the 1950’s. I was always under the impression though that the sexagenarians of today have more than one sibling usually.
If people in the fifties were having 2 kids on average though, and people of today are *also *having two kids on average, then how is birth control determined to be a reason for why Americans are having fewer babies? In this case, there would be no drop in fertility from pre to post-contraceptive times
christianliferesources.com/article/u-s-abortion-statistics-by-year-1973-current-1042
Since over 54 million babies have been murdered since 1973, it’s quite obvious what the problem is.
The current population of the United States is over 300 million.
In 1955, it was around 166 million.
There is another deeply imbedded problem that all Catholics should pray and work to solve.
nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html?pagewanted=all
Peace,
Ed
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mgoforth
Guest
Amen to everything you said.
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