Why answering atheists?

[annem]

Where is that list???

Catachism of the Catholic–available everywhere

Which ones? There are several versions in the Bible… and none of them mentions homosexuality, or the “evil” of masturbation, or other, supposedly “mortal” sins.

Is this a line of argument that works with Protestants? I assume so, because you can’t have tried it with Catholics because the church (heavy sigh here) has worked out what is and what is not wrong, down to the finest point. And you can take it from me that God was the one behind all those rules, because NONE OF US WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THEM.

Except God does not talk to me in any way, shape or form that I can recognize.

What did John the Baptist tell everyone? Repent. What did Jesus tell everyone? Repent. Hmm…could be a clue here…let me think…sin like pride blinding people…then they repent…hmm. I mention this only because I was an atheist for years. A decade, about. And only came to the church after…well…a lot of pain. And repenting.

I am “stuck” with the assertions of fallible human beings.

Human beings will fail you every time, I am sorry to say. The news that is too good to be true but is true nevertheless is that God will never fail you. What brought you to this forum do you think?

May God grant you a million miracles, Annem

 

[Spock]

Catachism of the Catholic–available everywhere

And why should I accept that? As you say below: “humans will fail every time”, and the Church is comprised of human beings, the Cathecism was written by human beings.

Is this a line of argument that works with Protestants? I assume so, because you can’t have tried it with Catholics because the church (heavy sigh here) has worked out what is and what is not wrong, down to the finest point.

The Church is comprised of humans, so it is fallible. And, please don’t tell me that the CC was founded by Jesus, so it must be infallible. You only have other, unreliable peoples’ word for it. No matter how hard you try, you are stuck with humans. The Bible was written by humans, the Church is made of humans, the Cathecism is a human concotion.

And you can take it from me that God was the one behind all those rules, because NONE OF US WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THEM.

Hehe, that is pretty funny, and I never heard that before. Thank you for this great line! So you say that those rules are not “really” acceptable, and you only follow them because you believe that God made them. I have this sneaky suspicion that those rules were made by humans (again), by humans who believed that this is the way God wanted them to behave. Humans made up zillions of rules to appease all those different gods they invented. They practised animal sacrifices, human sacrifices, all sorts of pretty horrid practices to get favors from their pagan gods. Why would Christianty be any different? People are afraid of God, and rightfully so. If I believed what the Bible says, I would be scared out of my wits.

Though let’s not generalize. Many rules layed out in the Bible are very sensible, and can be accepted on fully secular grounds. It is the rest that I have problems with, and I am happy to say that others, even many Catholics are reluctant to accept those. A sizable portion of Catholics in the US disregard the RCC’s teachings on birth control, for example.

What did John the Baptist tell everyone? Repent. What did Jesus tell everyone? Repent. Hmm…could be a clue here…let me think…sin like pride blinding people…then they repent…hmm. I mention this only because I was an atheist for years. A decade, about. And only came to the church after…well…a lot of pain. And repenting.

You ask for the impossible. Obviously I try to lead a good, decent life, and according to my standards there is nothing that I should repent.

Human beings will fail you every time, I am sorry to say. The news that is too good to be true but is true nevertheless is that God will never fail you.

Said by a nice, though fallible human being. Do you see the irony?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Thanks Spock for your droll words (on your behalf we didn’t take them as insult or blasphemy).
Really astonishing though, you engage as most atheists, so much in a matter you call nonsense and more in your many posts.

Why all this angry engagement in a matter you don’t believe anyhow. Nobody would care about a thing he considers a fairy tale, the agitated way you do. But why do you put yourself out this way on Christian believe and faith?

One is tempted to think it’s jealousness on Christians richness of life and inner peace and contentedness?

No, you are not, as you say in post 10, just “simply out of luck” not being able to be Christian and not like those “happy are those who have not seen, yet they believe” as Jesus says.

No! The bible tells you on several places, that you, refusing, are not even allowed to comprehend – e.g. in Isaiah 6,9f; John 12,40; Acts 28,26ff. Or Mark 4,12 …so that they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’

This is very natural consequence or procedure: A person who doesn’t trust you, telling badmouth about you and more, you don’t want to get in touch with. If however this person regrets, comes to apologizes (eats humble pie) in Atonement, you will tell him the truth and reunite.
“Reunite” – as you come out of God.

But those insisting on their error about you, you won’t let know a thing about you. You won’t care any more about him. If it’s silly stuff, you won’t even do anything about it.

Try to find back to the truth you originate of, before you see God’s truth in speechless terror about your refusal in lifetime.

**

 

[twb1621]

And why should I accept that? As you say below: “humans will fail every time”, and the Church is comprised of human beings, the Cathecism was written by human beings.

The Church is comprised of humans, so it is fallible. And, please don’t tell me that the CC was founded by Jesus, so it must be infallible. You only have other, unreliable peoples’ word for it. No matter how hard you try, you are stuck with humans. The Bible was written by humans, the Church is made of humans, the Cathecism is a human concotion.

Hehe, that is pretty funny, and I never heard that before. Thank you for this great line! So you say that those rules are not “really” acceptable, and you only follow them because you believe that God made them. I have this sneaky suspicion that those rules were made by humans (again), by humans who believed that this is the way God wanted them to behave. Humans made up zillions of rules to appease all those different gods they invented. They practised animal sacrifices, human sacrifices, all sorts of pretty horrid practices to get favors from their pagan gods. Why would Christianty be any different? People are afraid of God, and rightfully so. If I believed what the Bible says, I would be scared out of my wits.

Though let’s not generalize. Many rules layed out in the Bible are very sensible, and can be accepted on fully secular grounds. It is the rest that I have problems with, and I am happy to say that others, even many Catholics are reluctant to accept those. A sizable portion of Catholics in the US disregard the RCC’s teachings on birth control, for example.

You ask for the impossible. Obviously I try to lead a good, decent life, and according to my standards there is nothing that I should repent.

Said by a nice, though fallible human being. Do you see the irony?

Spock, What do you believe in? I ask not being sarcastic. Do you believe in any of written history? By the way, the laws of God are written in all man’s hearts, but it is a matter of free will to follow them just as it is your free will to seek the truth in all things including God or to choose not to. Because a person chooses not to doesn’t mean there is no God or that Jesus is not His beloved Son any more than it relieves one from the responsibility of sin. You are no different in these senses.

 

[Spock]

Thanks Spock for your droll words (on your behalf we didn’t take them as insult or blasphemy).

Just tell me what was “insulting” or “blasphemous” in my post. I will try to avoid them in the future. Now, I have to point out that you requested me to point out errors in the Bible, and you said you were “all ears”. I complied and quoted one verse, which is simply incorrect. I would appreciate an answer.

 

[Spock]

Spock, What do you believe in? I ask not being sarcastic.

I believe in many things, far too many to enumerate.

Do you believe in any of written history?

Some of it, for sure. But I do not base my life on those things. Besides, God is supposed to be around today, so why should we rely on ancient writ?

By the way, the laws of God are written in all man’s hearts, but it is a matter of free will to follow them just as it is your free will to seek the truth in all things including God or to choose not to.

Nothing is written into our heart.

Because a person chooses not to doesn’t mean there is no God or that Jesus is not His beloved Son any more than it relieves one from the responsibility of sin.

Since I have no idea why some proscribed behaviors are “sinful”, I cannot accept that characterization. There is a world of difference between “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not have sex outside marriage”.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

That is all very nice, all this concern and professing love. But I doubt that you really thought it through just what will be your attitude toward those who are in hell?

If there is a hell, and it is not empty, then you (in heaven) will either not know about them, or you will. Heaven is supposed to be perfect happiness, or bliss.

If you will not know about those in hell, then it will not disturb you in the least. However, this implies a serious “brainwashing”, taking a considerable amount of “you” away. Besides, some of those whom you know here on Earth will not be found in heaven, and quite possibly you will be aware of this fact. Therefore you must know that hell exists, and it is not empty.

The corollary is that you will be aware of some people suffering eternally, while you enjoy eternal happiness. Can you be happy with such a knowledge? Doubtful, since you are a nice person, who is concerned about others (as you said in your OP).

So what is the result of all this? Either you will not be happy in heaven, or you will be, and then you will be happy about the sufferers (good old Schadenfreude. ) As they say you are between a rock and a hard place…

Or is this just another one of those “mysteries”, which are the “get out of jail cards” when the beliefs run into a contradiction?

Interesting choice of a screen name for one who does not accept the logic of the Church’s teachings.

ALL actions have consequences. You cannot drop a hammer on your toe and not feel the pain. God gives us free will to accept or reject His teachings. It’s not really difficult to understand.

One can feel regret for those in Hell without being ‘happy’ that they are there.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

Since I’m not of aware another’s fate in hell, how can I be dismayed?

You can still care about them, can’t you?

NO! and even if you could you wouldn’t, for there is no greater sin than to deny God! And again I must quote David for this is the original truth:

Once another is in hell, I’m no longer in any position to do anything for them. While they where alive, I can present the truth to them, and in so doing maybe convince them to avoid the things that come with a “hell sentence”.

But still: As atheists deny all this, one keeps asking; why do they worry about it? Worry about something inexistent, would be terribly illogical! It’s the bald truth of Catharine of Geneva who put it that way:
Whoever separate himself from God, will never find peace in life.

Since I have no idea why some proscribed behaviors are “sinful”, I cannot accept that characterization.

Since atheists have no idea of nothing concerning God, they can’t comprehend a thing about believe - even when the Pope rightly said - believe and faith in God is very simple, and that’s what it really is. But if anyone doesn’t believe as these children do… Mat 19,14; Mk 10,15; Lk 18,17
Mt 18,3: "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
**

 

[twb1621]

So sorry, that does not wash. The Bible needs “interpretation”, and different people interpret it differently. Why should I accept your version? The Magistretium or the Pope are unacceptable as “authorities”.

Argumentum ad populum…

Nonsense. Our civilization is not based on Jesus, not even the Western civilization, not even the US, which is the most religious society in the Western hemisphere. The Constitution of the USA is a fully secular document, and according to the Treaty of Tripoli, it is not based on the Christian religion.

No problem at all… see below.

Yet another argumentum ad populum…

No problem. Here it comes:

According to this passage the value of “pi” is exactly “3”… and even in those times there were better approximations. Please don’t say that the Bible is not a math textbook. It is an error, due to the fact that the authors had no idea about math. God is supposed to know better… Just one of such errors invalidate your claim that the Bible is of divine origin. (And there are many more…)

What is it you find in error in the excerpt?

"One of the earliest records of precise measurement is from Egypt. The Egyptians studied the science of geometry to assist them in the construction of the Pyramids. It is believed that about 3000 years BC, the Egyptian unit of length came into being.

The “Royal Egyptian Cubit” was decreed to be equal to the length of the forearm from the bent elbow to the tip of the extended middle finger plus the width of the palm of the hand of the Pharaoh or King ruling at that time."

ncsli.org/misc/cubit.cfm

 

[davidv]

Right. So why should I accept something that was taught for a long time? It does not lend credence just because it was around for a few millenia. Especially since the ancient authors were pretty uneducated and superstitious by modern standars.

I don’t know. Why do you reject it? How do you know they were uneducated? Why are modern standards better?

I did, and I am sorry to say, that all the religious arguments came up short. “Mene, tekel, ufarsin”… you know.

Yes, indeed. And that is presicely what is the problem. Without a specific, unambiguous list of what to do and what to avoid, we are left to our own devices, and likely make mistakes. However, according to the teachings of the Church, some of these have “eternal” consequences.

Actual the lack of list is "“presicely” not a problem because such a list cannot possibly be created. Any list could not account for every individual who ever lived, or will live, and all of their particular circumstance? The only purpose of such a list, that I can see, is to used in legalistic rationalizing some sinful behavior.

And what about those who do not believe in Jesus?

What about them? Would the Law or a list matter to them?

Never has it been presented! Not once. Only the personal convictions of fallible human beings have been presented, and that is far from being persuasive.

Why do you define these as “not a case”?

I am convinced that you have decided that you can not be persuaded.

 

[Spock]

Interesting choice of a screen name for one who does not accept the logic of the Church’s teachings.

Oh, there is no problem with the logic itself. However, a completely logical argument can still be unsound, if it is based on dubious premises. That is where the problem lies.

ALL actions have consequences. You cannot drop a hammer on your toe and not feel the pain.

That is a physical consequence, which can be ascertained by anyone who wishes to conduct the proper experiment. Quite different from the alleged teachings of God, which cannot be verifed, which must be accepted on faith.

God gives us free will to accept or reject His teachings. It’s not really difficult to understand.

That is not the problem again. It is the supposed teachings which are in doubt. And God does not come forth to verify those teachings.

One can feel regret for those in Hell without being ‘happy’ that they are there.

Right! I would not think anyone would “gloat” about the fate of those who are in hell. Speaking formyself, that regret would spoil my “perfect” happiness. I don’t know about you…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Like the Constitution of the United States, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or even the Ten Commandments) is not hard to understand.

It’s when we allow ourselves the sin of pride that we fail. (The old I’m-the-smartest-man-in-the-room syndrome).

And this does not mean a healthy pride in accomplishments, as even Father Corapi approves of, but the pride of putting the creature above the Creator.

I’d rather be dumb and humble.

 

[Spock]

NO! and even if you could you wouldn’t, for there is no greater sin than to deny God!

Interesting… so you would not feel sorry for their eternal suffering? Besides, I do not deny God. I am unconvinced that such a being exists, having seen no reason for that hypothesis.

But still: As atheists deny all this, one keeps asking; why do they worry about it? Worry about something inexistent, would be terribly illogical!

I am simply interested in your arguments.

It’s the bald truth of Catharine of Geneva who put it that way:
Whoever separate himself from God, will never find peace in life.

These “bombastic” announcements really turn me off. How dare you make such claims about everyone who does not believe in your God??

Since atheists have no idea of nothing concerning God, they can’t comprehend a thing about believe - even when the Pope rightly said - believe and faith in God is very simple, and that’s what it really is. But if anyone doesn’t believe as these children do… Mat 19,14; Mk 10,15; Lk 18,17
Mt 18,3: "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Yep, the gullibility of children, who have no critical skills is lauded in the Bible. Of course Paul also said: “When I was a child, I spoke like a child and behaved like a child. When I grew up, I left childish things behind”. (Not a verbatim quote, if you want me, I can look it up). I prefer to be grown up, and not swallow unconditionally what other people say - even if they believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[twb1621]

Oh, there is no problem with the logic itself. However, a completely logical argument can still be unsound, if it is based on dubious premises. That is where the problem lies.

Lets discuss what you consider dubious. But if you don’t mind, please answer my previously posted question.

That is a physical consequence, which can be ascertained by anyone who wishes to conduct the proper experiment. Quite different from the alleged teachings of God, which cannot be verifed, which must be accepted on faith.

Many have had their verification but because you have not fallen into that catagory, you 'believe" He dosen’t exist which is a baseless belief.

That is not the problem again. It is the supposed teachings which are in doubt. And God does not come forth to verify those teachings.

You certainly can have doubts, but if you are really interested in knowing the truth you have to look for it in the right places.

Right! I would not think anyone would “gloat” about the fate of those who are in hell. Speaking formyself, that regret would spoil my “perfect” happiness. I don’t know about you…

I’d be willing to claim you haven’t experienced perfect happiness in reality.

 

[twb1621]

What is it you find in error in the excerpt?

"Cubit - One of the earliest records of precise measurement is from Egypt. The Egyptians studied the science of geometry to assist them in the construction of the Pyramids. It is believed that about 3000 years BC, the Egyptian unit of length came into being.

The “Royal Egyptian Cubit” was decreed to be equal to the length of the forearm from the bent elbow to the tip of the extended middle finger plus the width of the palm of the hand of the Pharaoh or King ruling at that time."

ncsli.org/misc/cubit.cfm

 

[SimonArizona]

Where did the laws *come from *that order the universe? If there was possibly at one time nothingness, how could nothingness beget something? Everything has received its existence from another, is it impossible for the universe to be made up only of receivers of existence? Logically must there be a source of existence, that gives existence to everything else, that has its own source of existence within itself?

 

[po18guy]

That is all very nice, all this concern and professing love. But I doubt that you really thought it through just what will be your attitude toward those who are in hell?

Novels could be written based on the cynicism and latent anger in this world today. I see a lot just in these two sentences. You realize that many of us had the exact same thoughts in our earlier lives? We were right where you are, viewing the world through your eyes. We saw the hypocrisy of “believers” around us and rejected not only the believers, but also that which they believed in. We were cynical and believed only in that which we could touch and see. We demanded proof before we would believe in anything.

If you suddenly discovered that a branch of empirical science provided all of the answers that you personally were searching for, would you keep it to yourself, or would you share it? You would most certainly share the good news. We interact with you because we have found “the Way”, as it was known in its earliest days. All we ask is that you consider it with an open mind - not looking at the behavior of its poor practitioners, but the core truths that it reveals. Once you realize that, despite all of the evil and hatred in this world, there is true hope, your heart can and will change.

Many of us simply became tired of perpetuating the old “misery loves company” stereotype. We sought more out of life. You need not ever agree with us, but we would be remiss if we did not tell you about the joy that is to be found in this life. It is just a matter of perspective, that’s all.

Peace be with you.

 

[Spock]

What is it you find in error in the excerpt?

"One of the earliest records of precise measurement is from Egypt. The Egyptians studied the science of geometry to assist them in the construction of the Pyramids. It is believed that about 3000 years BC, the Egyptian unit of length came into being.

The “Royal Egyptian Cubit” was decreed to be equal to the length of the forearm from the bent elbow to the tip of the extended middle finger plus the width of the palm of the hand of the Pharaoh or King ruling at that time."

ncsli.org/misc/cubit.cfm

We have a misunderstanding. It is not the actual unit of measurement which is problematic. It is the ratio of the circumference of the circle compared to it diameter, which is “pi” (3.1415…) and which is given as “3”. Even back in those days the value was known to be about “3.15”. The author was obviously not familiar with the best approximation of his day… so it could not have been God. That is all. Bruno Schulz challenged me to point out an error in the Bible, which I did. He never responded to this… I wonder why?

 

[Spock]

I don’t know. Why do you reject it? How do you know they were uneducated? Why are modern standards better?

Because those ancient writs do not address our time.

Actual the lack of list is "“presicely” not a problem because such a list cannot possibly be created. Any list could not account for every individual who ever lived, or will live, and all of their particular circumstance? The only purpose of such a list, that I can see, is to used in legalistic rationalizing some sinful behavior.

I doubt it. A reasonable list (updated periodically - which is the buzzword here!) does not have to be long (unless of course it would be created by lawyers. ).

What about them? Would the Law or a list matter to them?

I reasonable list would have a better chance. I certainly agree with many of the Bible’s “recommendations” (not all).

Why do you define these as “not a case”?

Because all of them require an a-priori acceptence of something that cannot be substantiated.

I am convinced that you have decided that you can not be persuaded.

It is your conviction. I can tell you that I have an open mind, and I can be convinced. But no appeal to authority (alone) works for me. Reasonable premises and logical corollaries do.

 

[Spock]

Like the Constitution of the United States, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or even the Ten Commandments) is not hard to understand.

The ten commandments are a mixture of reasonable and not reasonable commandments. And the Constitution can be amended if need be. Can the Cathechism be changed?

It’s when we allow ourselves the sin of pride that we fail. (The old I’m-the-smartest-man-in-the-room syndrome).

And this does not mean a healthy pride in accomplishments, as even Father Corapi approves of, but the pride of putting the creature above the Creator.

As long as the creator does not choose to show himself, I have no reason to believe his existence.

I’d rather be dumb and humble.

Your choice, my friend.