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Karin
Guest
So are you saying that Jews caused or brought on this anti-semtisim themselves…that they are the ones to blame for it??
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exoflare
Guest
I’m curious as to how most people define “Jews” in the context of anti-semitism. Are they talking about people who actually adhere to the religion, or do they mean anyone who is part “Jewish” as an ethnicity? It seems like a lot of anti-semites don’t even bother to make the distinction. Bigots like the author of that site cannot keep their definitions straight. He even has an article there about how our previous Pope JPII was a “Jew”. 
V
Valke2
Guest
No. That would be like saying blacks brought on racism by being black. Just because our actions resulted in anti-semetism doesn’t mean we caused it anymore than a black person causes hatred by moving into a white neighborhood.
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Valke2;
Valke2:
I don’t want to be rude, but what OT the authors were reading?
Let me quote something for the OT:
I happened that in “the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria” [2KINGS 17:6]
Why did it happen?
“For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods
“And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.
“And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city
“And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:
“And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:
“For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.
“And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.
“And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
“And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger" **
Note:** This is the sacred prostitution, a pagan practice of the time.
“Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
“Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
“And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
“For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin
“For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
“Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. [2KINGS 17:7-23]
What did the Jews do to spread the Monotheism they received, though they knew it for thousands years and received countless prophets and messengers? Look at your Brethren, the Ishmaelite: One Prophet, and less than hundred years, and they took the Monotheism to the four corners of the Globe!
Salaam.
Joseph.
Valke2;
I don’t want to be rude, but what OT the authors were reading?
Let me quote something for the OT:
I happened that in “the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria” [2KINGS 17:6]
Why did it happen?
“For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods
“And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made.
“And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city
“And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree:
“And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:
“For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing.
“And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them.
“And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
“And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger" **
Note:** This is the sacred prostitution, a pagan practice of the time.
“Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
“Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
“And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
“For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin
“For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;
“Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. [2KINGS 17:7-23]
Compare this with the above verses I quoted from the OT.
If they are talking about Jesus, and knowing that the Christians believe that Jesus the Jewish “saved” the humanity from its sins, this is not a cause of anti-Semitism, to the contrary, the Jews should be declared heroes, why not, didn’t they participate in the “wonderful” plan of salvation?
What did the Jews do to spread the Monotheism they received, though they knew it for thousands years and received countless prophets and messengers? Look at your Brethren, the Ishmaelite: One Prophet, and less than hundred years, and they took the Monotheism to the four corners of the Globe!
Why it is that God kept sending endless Prophets to the Jews. Prophet, after Prophet, after Prophet, in a non ending procession . Answer: because they were rebellious and often go astray…? Read JOSHUA Chapter 24.
Salaam.
Joseph.
V
Valke2
Guest
I haven’t read your post in full, but I’m not arguing that Jews didn’t stray or fail to keep the commandments.
V
Valke2
Guest
Yes. And because Jews held that Islam was not the proper way for them to worship, and because the Jews didn’t convert en mass to Islam, Mohammed hated them. This strengthens my argument, it doesn’t weakin it. Did Islam embrace us for our Torah? No.
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JimO
Guest
That’s like saying, “Let’s discuss the creation of the universe, but we can’t entertain any Divine influence.” I believe that Satan’s hatred of God and the Jews, as the chosen, people has been at the root of all antisemitism. What you are discussing are not the root causes, but the manifestations of that hatred.
S
St_John
Guest
I don’t think anti-Semitism is unique, except in the fact that the Jews survived as a separate people throughout the years, rather than be absorbed by more dominant cultures and religions. The Jewish people happen to be extremely gifted and intelligent, and have proven adaptable. Also they were able to keep their traditions alive in the face inspite of hostilities they encountered throughout the world.
I read once that Jewish identity is actually strengthened in the face of prejudice, and in America today prosperity and acceptance is causing Jews to rapidly be absorbed into the larger culture through secularization and intermarriage.
I read once that Jewish identity is actually strengthened in the face of prejudice, and in America today prosperity and acceptance is causing Jews to rapidly be absorbed into the larger culture through secularization and intermarriage.
D
deb1
Guest
My hubby’s grandmother escaped Austria in 1939, along with her infant daughter-my Mil. She has sent her ten year old daughter to England for safety sake. Much of her family were killed in the Holocaust.I’m curious as to how most people define “Jews” in the context of anti-semitism. Are they talking about people who actually adhere to the religion, or do they mean anyone who is part “Jewish” as an ethnicity? It seems like a lot of anti-semites don’t even bother to make the distinction. Bigots like the author of that site cannot keep their definitions straight. He even has an article there about how our previous Pope JPII was a “Jew”.
One thing that amazed me was looking at her report card from child hood. It had a word that meant Jewish on it. Long before Hitler came to power, people kept records of who belonged to what religious group.
My Husband’s grandmother was not even a religious Jewish person, she was secular as was her family.
From what I understand Hitler’s particular hatred of the Jews was based more on ethnicity then religion.
C
corvidae
Guest
I would say that the predominate cause for anti-semitism is jealousy.
And it doesn’t matter if it is jealousy over tight communities, jealousy over percieved control of finances, jealousy over percieved control of the media, jealousy over percieved control of anything, jealousy that people are not accepting what you believe, jealousy that they were “Chosen”
etc., etc., etc.,
I think it boils down to jealousy over something that the Jews have or are percieved to have that the anti-semites don’t.
A lone Raven
And it doesn’t matter if it is jealousy over tight communities, jealousy over percieved control of finances, jealousy over percieved control of the media, jealousy over percieved control of anything, jealousy that people are not accepting what you believe, jealousy that they were “Chosen”
etc., etc., etc.,
I think it boils down to jealousy over something that the Jews have or are percieved to have that the anti-semites don’t.
A lone Raven
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Valke2;
Valke2:
“Before this, everyone worshiped their own gods but acknowledged the gods of other nations. Not the Jews. “Other gods” were nonsense.”
I brought you some verses from the OT showing that to the Jews the “other gods” we not nonsense: “And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal" [2KINGS 17:16] Calf worship and Baal worship were pagan worships.
One of the commandments is to worship God and God alone, the Jews “left all the commandments of the LORD their God” and instead “worshipped all the host of heaven” meaning other gods.
The statement made by the authors you quoted is incorrect, the Jews at time recognized other gods and even worshiped them.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Yes, that’s true you did not personnaly argue about that, but those you quoted said the following:
“Before this, everyone worshiped their own gods but acknowledged the gods of other nations. Not the Jews. “Other gods” were nonsense.”
I brought you some verses from the OT showing that to the Jews the “other gods” we not nonsense: “And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal" [2KINGS 17:16] Calf worship and Baal worship were pagan worships.
One of the commandments is to worship God and God alone, the Jews “left all the commandments of the LORD their God” and instead “worshipped all the host of heaven” meaning other gods.
The statement made by the authors you quoted is incorrect, the Jews at time recognized other gods and even worshiped them.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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exoflare
Guest
Joseph’s argument for Islam is a common one, but it doesn’t have a leg to stand on. On one hand, they tell everybody that Islam is the true religion of the world because it is the only one to proclaim the worship of one God. Patently false because of Christians and Jews (even others). Even if they were to convince people that Christians really did worship three “gods” they still have the problem of explaining the need for a new prophet when Jews still worship one God… So in order to discredit the religion of Judaism itself, they must poison the well and mention the acts of specific Jews that did not agree with their teachings (he mentions idolatry here).
Fast forward to today, where Muslims around the world make the news in the worst way just about every single day. They cannot remind us quickly enough how their behavior goes against “true Islam”, and how we should not judge a religion by the actions of its followers!
I’m thinking maybe one day I should actually compile that huge list of Muslim double-standards I keep mentioning…
I
inJESUS
Guest
obviously, Judaism is not what “some” did but what the majority believed.
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam;
inJESUS:
Salaam.
Joseph.
Re-read the verses I quoted. It is talking about Israel, Samaria and Judah; that’s the whole Jewish nation.
Salaam.
Joseph.
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam;
exoflare:
Your idea about compiling the double standard cases is a good one. It will be interesting to see what you would come up with.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Don’t pay attention to Joseph’s arguments for Islam, for they are weak and unballanced (don’t have a leg to stand on).
Your idea about compiling the double standard cases is a good one. It will be interesting to see what you would come up with.
Salaam.
Joseph.
V
Valke2
Guest
If you want to make arguments that antisemetism is divinely or demonicly inspried, go ahead. But I don’t see how you can do this based on scripture.
V
Valke2
Guest
I stand by my quotes and don’t see how they conflict with the fact that Jews did a significant amount of theological backsliding.
E
exoflare
Guest
How about the one I just mentioned? You have just judged the teachings of Judaism according to the actions of some of its adherents. Would you be okay with people judging Islam this way?
V
Valke2
Guest
NAZI ANTI-SEMETISM
THe popular thinking is that the Nazi’s anti-semetism was due to racism. This is not the case. They were racists, yes. But the Nazi anti-semetism did not grow out of racism. Two questions come to mind when the argument that Nazi racism was the cause of anti-semetism:
Why did the Nazi’s lable the Jews a race? Why was the race label needed in order to “justify” anti-semetism?
If racism was the basis for their worldview, why did the Nazi’s focus all their hatred on the Jews, the the exculsion of all other races? (Including the Gypsies, the mass murder of whom was incidental to the Nazi’s worldview and not the objects of genocide).
It was not because of racism that the Nazis hated the Jews. Rather, it was their hatred of the Jews that caused the Nazis to use racist arguments. It was the hatred of the jewish character. Of what we represented. Not what type of “race” we were.
More later.
THe popular thinking is that the Nazi’s anti-semetism was due to racism. This is not the case. They were racists, yes. But the Nazi anti-semetism did not grow out of racism. Two questions come to mind when the argument that Nazi racism was the cause of anti-semetism:
Why did the Nazi’s lable the Jews a race? Why was the race label needed in order to “justify” anti-semetism?
If racism was the basis for their worldview, why did the Nazi’s focus all their hatred on the Jews, the the exculsion of all other races? (Including the Gypsies, the mass murder of whom was incidental to the Nazi’s worldview and not the objects of genocide).
It was not because of racism that the Nazis hated the Jews. Rather, it was their hatred of the Jews that caused the Nazis to use racist arguments. It was the hatred of the jewish character. Of what we represented. Not what type of “race” we were.
More later.
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