Why are Baptists called Baptists?

[jlhargus]

jlhargus,

You’ve made excellent posts on this thread. As I said in an earlier post, I am a former Baptist. It is difficult to escape indoctrination. When one views Scripture through the filter of Baptist teaching about Baptism (and the Eucharist); entire sections of Scripture are dismissed, because they don’t fit the “indoctrination.” It is difficult to escape. I know that from personal experience.

Graces are definitely imparted during Baptism, as your posts explain–including the forgiveness of sin and entrance into the New Covenant with God. Baptism is, as you said, the “circumcision made without hands.” Peace, Anna

JL: Thanks, it’s good to know some actually see it.

 

[fred_stoutland]

JL: My understanding is the Jordan is not a deep river. It is about waist deep in some places and less in most places. The only way we know immersion was the usual form would be TRADITION. Spriture never gives the form of baptism as immersion or anyother way. Paul seems to have been baptized standing up by pouring as he was in a house, [Acts9:17 And ANANIAS went his way, and ENTERED into THE HOUSE; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND AROSE, AND WAS BAPTIZED. 19 AND when he had RECEIVED MEAT, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.]

JL: Peter tells us baptism NOW SAVES, [1Pet 3:21 **The like figure

whereunto even baptism doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:] Peter also tells us baptism remits sins and we receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, RREPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.] I have yet to see anyone post scriptural evidence that baptism is sign or symbol only. Maybe some Baptist here can show me.

JL: Could you tell me how David’s child went to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice, resurrection, atonement and ascension? David went to his child in Sheol not heaven. Sheol is were all souls went, good or bad, before Christ. The good souls went to the chamber called Abrahams Bosom or paradise and were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. The lost went to the chamber of torment, where they remain till the resurrection and then Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek or Hell=English along with death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire… No one could go to heaven before Christ’s ascension, unless it was a miracle.

JL: I would not call 200 plus denominations A GROUP, they are NOT ONE they are MANY denominations using the word Baptist. They differ as much as anyother Protestant Denomination. I had a great aunt who was Free Will Baptist, she did not consider herself in union with OSAS Baptists.

Permit me to answer you in two separate sections. First, I quite agree with your opinion that the Jordan River can be shallow in places. Actually, most every place along the shore line could have been shallow. So when I said that Christ was likely immersed because the river Jordan was deep, I stand corrected because I wasn’t precise enough.

Nonetheless, I think it is reasonable to believe that Jesus could have been immersed for His baptismal rite because Jewish scholars have said that Judaism long practiced immersion when they baptized their Gentile converts. Jesus was a Jew and the earliest converts were Jews. Likely they knew that when pagan converts were purified through baptism, historians say they would totally immerse themselves by squatting in the water with a witness or baptizer doing the officiating. John the Baptist had been baptizing people for several years and his baptism of Jesus was probably no different than what he usually did. The Bible makes no effort to describe something different method for Jesus. In fact, Matthew 3:16 says that Jesus came up straightway out of the water after He was baptized.

But, since we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, I take from such verses as Acts 9:18 that being baptized inside a house from the time of the Great Commission was okay; a river was the only method. So did our church fathers. The early Church admitted three valid methods of baptism: immersion, sprinkling, and pouring. Here is what one of the earliest of church instructions wrote in the Didache of A.D. 70:

“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit…” (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

Second, concerning baptism. I don’t think Baptists have strong evidence for their position. They have verses to validate their position, but to share this with you is for another time. Suffice it to say that the clearest example that shows the meaning of baptism is something a Greek Bible scholar dug up for his Philadelphia, Pennsylvania congregation. I came across it recently. This pastor/teacher referred to a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with Him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!

I’ll send you my responses to your last two points in a separate post.

 

[fred_stoutland]

JL: My understanding is the Jordan is not a deep river. It is about waist deep in some places and less in most places. The only way we know immersion was the usual form would be TRADITION. Spriture never gives the form of baptism as immersion or anyother way. Paul seems to have been baptized standing up by pouring as he was in a house, [Acts9:17 And ANANIAS went his way, and ENTERED into THE HOUSE; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND AROSE, AND WAS BAPTIZED. 19 AND when he had RECEIVED MEAT, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.]

JL: Peter tells us baptism NOW SAVES, [1Pet 3:21 **The like figure

whereunto even baptism doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:] Peter also tells us baptism remits sins and we receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, RREPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.] I have yet to see anyone post scriptural evidence that baptism is sign or symbol only. Maybe some Baptist here can show me.

JL: Could you tell me how David’s child went to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice, resurrection, atonement and ascension? David went to his child in Sheol not heaven. Sheol is were all souls went, good or bad, before Christ. The good souls went to the chamber called Abrahams Bosom or paradise and were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. The lost went to the chamber of torment, where they remain till the resurrection and then Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek or Hell=English along with death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire… No one could go to heaven before Christ’s ascension, unless it was a miracle.

JL: I would not call 200 plus denominations A GROUP, they are NOT ONE they are MANY denominations using the word Baptist. They differ as much as anyother Protestant Denomination. I had a great aunt who was Free Will Baptist, she did not consider herself in union with OSAS Baptists.

 

[fred_stoutland]

Here is the second part of my reply:
Third, concerning my comment about David’s illegitimate infant going to heaven. I was speaking from the vantage point of the post-Cross era in which we live so I was using words that had no meaning to David in the sense that we know them. Words like heaven and hell, for example. David lived in the Pre-Cross era, but my teachers and my studies believe that the children of God were saved upon the promise of Christ’s work on the Cross to come and we were saved upon the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

I don’t believe that David ever used the word heaven, because God had not revealed such specifics. He knew the word Sheol only to the extent that it was a name for the grave. But he did understand that there was an afterlife.

The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing. Here is my considered “take:”

The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus’ breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. So both paradise and Abraham’s bosom are synonymous with heaven.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is also used in the New Testament for hell and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place where the souls of unbelievers are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment at the Great White Throne judgment. The souls of the righteous go directly into the presence of God— heaven/paradise/Abraham’s bosom—at death (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

Lastly, I used the word “group” only after I explained that the label, “Baptist,” was just that; an umbrella title for a number of denominations and independents and individuals within the Protestant Church. It was in that context that I used the word. Sorry that didn’t come across clearly to you.

 

[brb3]

I think it is reasonable to believe that Jesus could have been immersed for His baptismal rite because Jewish scholars have said that Judaism long practiced immersion when they baptized their Gentile converts. Jesus was a Jew and the earliest converts were Jews. Likely they knew that when pagan converts were purified through baptism, historians say they would totally immerse themselves by squatting in the water with a witness or baptizer doing the officiating. John the Baptist had been baptizing people for several years and his baptism of Jesus was probably no different than what he usually did. The Bible makes no effort to describe something different method for Jesus. In fact, Matthew 3:16 says that Jesus came up straightway out of the water after He was baptized.

.

Yes … Christ had immersion Baptism. That’s what John knew and did. Those who would argue otherwise are

 

[jlhargus]

The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

JL: Where did Jesus go that DAY and the next three days?

Lazarus and the rich man, [Lk16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but NOW HE IS COMFORTED, and THOU ART TORMENTED.] Lazarus was comforted in Hell in the chamber of paradise or Abraham’s Bosom. The rich man in Hell was in a chamber of torment. When Christ ascended he took those captive in the chamber of paradise into heaven.

Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that HE ASCENDED, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?

Our Lord descended into Hell to bring good news, for the just spirits, when he preached to them, [1Pt4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.] CCC 634. [1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;] As far as prison, all in Sheol were captives, even in Abraham’s Bosom. When one is marooned on a paradise island, he is a captive, he cannot leave that place till rescued by his savior. When Christ ascended, he led a host of captives, the great CLOUD of witnesses,

[Hb11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, **RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: 40 GOD having PROVIDED some BETTER THING FOR US, that THEY WITHOUT US should not be made perfect. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are COMPASSED ABOUT with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]

[Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Sheol=Hades=Hell into heaven. Now MADE perfect by the blood of Christ, that cleanses and takes away sin, thru baptism, [Hb10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins].

[Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and **TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 AND TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.] We now see the spirits of just men MADE perfect now in heaven with our Lord.

 

[jlhargus]

Yes … Christ had immersion Baptism. That’s what John knew and did. Those who would argue otherwise are

JL Whether it was or was not immersion makes no difference. The FORM of baptism can only be known by oral Tradition, scripture is silent on the form.

 

[fred_stoutland]

here is what I believe:

The Crucifixion - Friday

The Gospel book of John quotes Jesus’ words on the Cross with the pronouncement of: “It is finished.” Jesus dies – His mission accomplished. The soldiers administer the death stroke by piercing His side with a spear into His heart to guarantee death. And so an Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled from Zechariah 12:10.

As Jesus dies, Scripture says that the earth quakes, rocks break apart, and the sky darkens. The veil in front of the inner sanctuary of the Jerusalem Temple tears into two pieces. This temple veil separates the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place where is located the Ark of the Covenant where God dwells symbolically (Exodus 25:22). When Christ died, His once-for-all sacrifice made the veil and animal sacrifices irrelevant. I believe that the torn veil was an indication that through Christ’s death and His soon-to-be resurrection - there was no longer any need for a human high priest - Jesus took his place…

Good Friday, which is called good because it gave us the wonderful gift of salvation, ended before sundown. Jesus’ body is taken away and buried by a Pharisee and a Sanhedrin Council member who had secretly become a convert to Christinity. In God’s providence, the hearts of Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea are moved to provide a tomb for Him and properly prepare Him for burial. Thus, fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy found in Isaiah 53:9.

The Descent - Saturday

His body is wrapped in burial cloth and put in the tomb on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath and the second day of this solemn event. There are two major schools of thought about what Jesus did on this second day. Neither one nor the other has won the debate in Protestant circles.

One group of Protestant theologians believes that Jesus’ spirit descended into Hades, the Greek word for the Hebrew word “Sheol,” which refers to the general realm of the dead; the location of which isn’t identified in the Bible. Some Jews believed that it was near God, but at some time in the future the righteous dead would get to heaven and be with God forever, while the unrighteous dead would either be destroyed or begin to suffer punishment eternally. This Protestant position also believes it’s a place like that, but with an impassable gulf between the righteous souls of the pre-Cross era and the unrighteous souls of the pre-Cross era. Depending on their status before God, they are either in a blissful state, temporarily located in Paradise or Abraham’s bosom; that is, the righteous section of Hades, or in a tormented state, abiding temporarily in the other section; each waiting for the final judgment of God. This position claims that on Sarurday Jesus preached strictly to the bound and fallen angels of His victory over them. They refer to 1 Peter 3:18-19, where it says: “For Christ …being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.”

The second major Protestant position about Saturday also sees Hades as divided into two sections. However, this second position believes Christ descended into Hades to preach the Gospel to the saints, not to unrighteous spirits. They base their beliefs on two Scripture references: Luke 16:22-26 and Luke 23:43. In the first reference, Jesus tells the parable of a beggar and a rich man. We learn here that both die; the beggar carried to “…Abraham’s bosom” by angels, and the rich man tormented in Hades. The rich man saw Abraham and requested he send someone with water. Abraham refused, saying that he got what he deserved. In the second reference, Jesus promised the thief on the Cross that today he’d be with him “… in Paradise.” Because the remaining references to Paradise mentioned in the New Testament are clearly to heaven, both groups of theologians have concluded that until the resurrection and ascension of Christ, Paradise was in Hades. But since then, the place has been removed to the third heaven, the place of God mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2. Several passages speak to the righteous dead being in the presence of Christ where Scripture says He sits at the right hand of God the Father; notably, 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21,23.

Resurrection Sunday

And so we go to the third day. Very early on Resurrection Sunday morning a second earthquake occurred. With this earthquake came an angel of the Lord who rolled away the tomb stone covering the entrance and sat upon it. The guards, who were there to make certain that no one stole the body and thereby claim that Jesus had risen, were awestruck. Mary Magdalene and another Mary (not the mother of Jesus) were also frightened, but they responded to the angel’s invitation to see the place where Jesus had been laying. They went into the tomb and found it empty. Another angel appeared moments later and, together, they announced to the two women, “He is not here, He is risen.” One of the angels then told them to go and tell the disciples, Peter and John, who also went to the tomb and found it empty.

Sunday, the last day of Holy Week and Christ is out of the tomb. He’s risen! He’s alive, as He predicted. Soon it will be the day Christians in the infant church call it the “Lord’s Day.”

People ask why God took three days to do these things. Protestant theologians say, “A day to die, a day to preach, and a day to rise.” The Scriptures don’t clearly reveal what occurred on that day with Jesus, although the Apostle Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:31 alludes to it.

This is my understanding of the three days of Easter - Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter. Most of it factual, some speulation as it pertains to Saturday.

 

[jlhargus]

Nonetheless, I think it is reasonable to believe that Jesus could have been immersed for His baptismal rite because Jewish scholars have said that Judaism long practiced immersion when they baptized their Gentile converts. Jesus was a Jew and the earliest converts were Jews. Likely they knew that when pagan converts were purified through baptism, historians say they would totally immerse themselves by squatting in the water with a witness or baptizer doing the officiating. John the Baptist had been baptizing people for several years and his baptism of Jesus was probably no different than what he usually did. The Bible makes no effort to describe something different method for Jesus. In fact, Matthew 3:16 says that Jesus came up straightway out of the water after He was baptized.

JL: Sorry I missed this post the first time, I didn’t go back far enough.

You are trying to prove immersion with Tradition, with which I have no problem. However if you are sola scriptura, you are going outside your sole authority. By your remarks I assume you are Church of Christ, am I correct?

You will also note, adult pagan converts were required to BELIEVE, REPENT and be CIRCUMCISED. Their male children including infants were also CIRCUMCISED and brought into family covenant relationship with God and his people, else they were cut off from their people, Gn17:14 And THE UNCIRCUMCISED MAN CHILD whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, THAT SOUL SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE; he hath broken my covenant.]

The Jewish baptism you refer to, I think is called mikvah. Which was to be done, by all Jewish people, when they were ritually unclean. The pagan convert would have been unclean, along with the one who did the circumcision, because they came in contact with blood. Therefore needed to be ritually purified. A Jewish woman when she had her period had to go thur this ritual cleansing. This ritual washing would have been done hundreds of times, in one’s life time, by women and men. for many reasons, such as touching blood or a dead body, etc… It is a foreshadowing of the Christian sacarament of baptism, which actually does WASH away sin, thru the action and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jlhargus]

The Bible makes no effort to describe something different method for Jesus. In fact, Matthew 3:16 says that Jesus came up straightway out of the water after He was baptized.

JL: [Mt3:16 And **Jesus, WHEN HE WAS baptized, WENT UP straightway OUT OF THE WATER: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:] When I was baptized, immersed, which is really dipping, as I am no longer immersed in water but the Holy Spirit. I WENT UP OUT OF THE WATER quickly, the river was ice cold in March. Young’s Literal Translation has a more clear translation, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt3:16&version=YLT

[Acts8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then BOTH PHILIP AND THE EUNUCH WENT DOWN INTO THE WATER and Philip baptized him. 39 When **THEY CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.] To say immersion is proved by Jesus coming UP OUT OF THE WATER, is to say Philip immerced and baptized BOTH himself and the eunuch, because THEY CAME UP OUT OF THE WATER.
In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, according to the foreknowledge of God, of something better, than circumcision of the flesh made by hands. Baptism the circumcision of the heart.

Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

Zech12:10 And I WILL POUR UPON THE HOUSE OF DAVID, and UPON THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM, THE SPIRIT OF GRACE and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zech13:1 IN THAT DAY THERE SHALL BE A FOUNTAIN OPENED TO THE HOUSE OF DAVID and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem FOR SIN AND for UNCLEANNESS.

[1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, **through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,] How are we sanctified of the Spirit? How are we sprinkled with the blood of Jesus? How are we begoten again by God? BAPTISM.

Heb10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our HEARTS SPRINKLED FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and our ** BODIES WASHED WITH PURE WATER**.]

If we went by sola scriptura instead of the Word of God, whether by word OR epistle, we would be baptizing by pouring and sprinkling. That’s why Apostolic Tradition by WORD or EPISTLE is essential to correct understanding. It’s only thru Apostolic oral Tradition that we know immersion was used, scripture is silent on the form.

[2Thes 2:14 Whereunto he called you by OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, BRETHREN, stand fast, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which ye have been **TAUGHT, WHETHER by **WORD, OR our EPISTLE. ]

[2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee** KEEP ****BY THE HOLY GHOST **which dwelleth IN US.]

[2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the **THINGS that thou hast **HEARD of me **among many witnesses, the same COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be **ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS **also.]

 

[jlhargus]

Second, concerning baptism. I don’t think Baptists have strong evidence for their position. They have verses to validate their position, but to share this with you is for another time.

JL: You are correct there is NO EVIDENCE in scripture to support baptism as a symbol or declaration of what has already taken place. There is also NO VERSES to validate that position. It is simply a tradition of men, passed down from generation to generation.

Suffice it to say that the clearest example that shows the meaning of baptism is something a Greek Bible scholar dug up for his Philadelphia, Pennsylvania congregation. I came across it recently. This pastor/teacher referred to a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

JL: I seen this about five years ago. Yes first the pickle is DIPPED (bapto) into boiling water. Then IMMERSED (baptizo) into the vinegar, in which it remains IMMERSED. The Holy Spirit is that VINEGAR into whom we are permanently IMMERSED, by water AND of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit (vinegar) united with water in which we are dipped in order to be immersed into the Holy Spirit. It is permanent unless we wilfully chose to sin, for instance commit adultery, after baptism. In that case the Holy Spirit cannot remain in a defiled temple. We must repent and confess our sin for the Holy Spirit to indwell us again. On Pentecost when all received the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit, were they all immersed in the tongues of fire, or did it just touch or settle over their head?

When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with Him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! I’ll send you my responses to your last two points in a separate post.

JL: [Rms 6:3 **KNOW YE NOT, THAT so many of us as were BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 Therefore we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM INTO DEATH: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE. 5 For if we have been PLANTED TOGETHER IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS DEATH, we shall be ALSO IN THE LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION: 6 Knowing this, that OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, that the body of sin might be destroyed, THAT henceforth WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.]

Phillip 3:3 For WE ARE THE CIRCUMCISION, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

BAPTISM does refer to OUR union and identification with Christ. A REAL UNION by the indewlling Holy Spirit. Brought about thru water AND of the Holy Spirit, born again a child of God, as our Lord tells us in [Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.]

Our Lord also says in [Jn3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.] Are children born again. Christ again tells us in [Jn3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] Are we ALL born of flesh and of the Spirit at natual birth or flesh only? If so then why are children of unbelievers said to be UNCLEAN. 1Cor7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: ELSE were YOUR CHILDREN UNCLEAN; but now are they holy.

 

[Eutychus123]

JL: My understanding is the Jordan is not a deep river. It is about waist deep in some places and less in most places. The only way we know immersion was the usual form would be TRADITION. Spriture never gives the form of baptism as immersion or anyother way. Paul seems to have been baptized standing up by pouring as he was in a house, [Acts9:17 And ANANIAS went his way, and ENTERED into THE HOUSE; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, AND AROSE, AND WAS BAPTIZED. 19 AND when he had RECEIVED MEAT, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.]

JL: Peter tells us baptism NOW SAVES, [1Pet 3:21 **The like figure

whereunto even baptism doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:] Peter also tells us baptism remits sins and we receive the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, RREPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.] I have yet to see anyone post scriptural evidence that baptism is sign or symbol only. Maybe some Baptist here can show me.

JL: Could you tell me how David’s child went to heaven before Christ’s sacrifice, resurrection, atonement and ascension? David went to his child in Sheol not heaven. Sheol is were all souls went, good or bad, before Christ. The good souls went to the chamber called Abrahams Bosom or paradise and were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. The lost went to the chamber of torment, where they remain till the resurrection and then Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek or Hell=English along with death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire… No one could go to heaven before Christ’s ascension, unless it was a miracle.

JL: I would not call 200 plus denominations A GROUP, they are NOT ONE they are MANY denominations using the word Baptist. They differ as much as anyother Protestant Denomination. I had a great aunt who was Free Will Baptist, she did not consider herself in union with OSAS Baptists.

Just a quick geographical point. Significant water is diverted from the Jordan River for irrigation purposes, thus leading to the description that you provided. We don’t know how deep it was in jesus day.

 

[Eutychus123]

The reason they’re called Baptists is because a corner stone of their belief was a baptism by full emersion (no other form was valid), and unless one had already been baptized in this fashion then they needed to be “re-baptized”. Some have associated them with the Anabaptist movement but I’ve never really seen that connection. The Baptist movement as we know it began with John Smythe an Anglican priest who escaped with others of like mind to the Netherlands during the so-called English Reformation.

Soon the paleo-Baptists (my just made up term), split into two camps. Particular Baptists believed in the doctrine of Eternal Security, but who also held to the idea that only a select or “particular” portion of human was selected for salvation. The second camp was the General Baptists who believed that salvation could be loss through one’s own will, but that the gift of Grace was open to all. These two groups further separated into splinter groups (Freewill, Primitive, Missionary, Hardshell etc.) and many are still in existence today.

Eventually a sect rose in the US which was an amalgam of the two philosophies of the original paleo-Baptist split. Salvation was secure, but also open to all. This “Baptist Church” became very successful in the US until the Civil War, at which point they split to into the Northern Baptists (abolitionist), and the Southern Baptist (pro-slavery). The Northen Baptist denomination still exists but went into severe decline, The Southern Baptist Church however experienced a great explosion of membership and became the largest “Baptist” sect and I believe for at least a time was the largest Protestant (or neo-protestant) sect in the world.

The Southern Baptist denomination is now in decline however because of a mixture, of losing people to the various Pentecostal movements, or to the non-denominational movements. In reaction to this, a trend began where Southern Baptist Churches stopped calling themselves Southern Baptist and instead take on non-denominational branding, which of course is also added to the general decline in the parent denomination.

Yes, thank you for your excellent summary. I might add that the Northern Bapistists are now called the American Baptist Church. When I was a member, we looked to Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, as being an early leader of the Baptists in the US.