Why are BISHOPS DIVIDED over SPPX?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katolik:

Jesus didn’t speak Greek,Ruthenian, Slavonic, or Armenian, so what?
I don’t understand you byzcath. You are a Rutenian Catholic, but you stick your nose into Roman affairs. If I did what you do here on byzcath, i would be banned lickety split. Let us mind our own Roman Latin Catholic dung heap thank you.

Very nice of you.

I speak up for two reasons, one I am a Catholic and two I care about the Catholic Church. When people attack the legitimate Church I will speak up. When this misrepresent Church Teachings I will speak up.

I may be a Byzantine Catholic, but I am also in the process of discerning a calling to the Carmelite Order.

 

[Franciscum]

ByzCath:

And I must add, Jesus didn’t speak Latin.

Actually as God, Jesus spoke any and ALL languages…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Franciscum:

Actually as God, Jesus spoke any and ALL languages…

And as Man He allowed limits to be placed upon Himself.

Jesus did not speak Latin.

 

[pnewton]

I will addess the second part of the question. I as a layman, am neither for or against any version of the Mass, primarily because I am a layman and it is not my job. I have been given permission in Redemptionis Sacramentum to address abuse, but not to define it.

As far as the SSPX is concerned, were their position to be normalized, we should all welcome them back with open arms. Until then, my only problem is that the operate outside the authority of the church and, at least here in this forum, recruit other to do the same. Should they lead someone away that recognizes the reality that Christ founded the Catholic Church, they put that person soul in jeopardy, since outside the Church there is no salvation. While the catechism recoginizes invincible ignorance as a mitigating circumstance, it does not give a special dispensation for the SSPX.

The only personal problem I have with this group is the arogance they sometimes exhibit and the disdain they show for the bride of Christ, which is my mother (e.g., mispelling Mass as mess, calling the Holy Father a heretic and the latest, calling the Roman Catholic Rite a dung heap)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ByzCath:

Very nice of you.

I speak up for two reasons, one I am a Catholic and two I care about the Catholic Church. When people attack the legitimate Church I will speak up. When this misrepresent Church Teachings I will speak up.

I may be a Byzantine Catholic, but I am also in the process of discerning a calling to the Carmelite Order.

Best of God’s blessings! The Carmelites rec. me into the Church. May St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa de Avila, St. Therese, and St. Edith Stein lift you up before Our Lord.

 

[bear06]

JKirkLVNV:

Our bishop specifically cautioned us against the local SSPX chapel.

I’m not surprised. The Vatican has even cautioned against them. However, if it came down to not, for some drastic reason, being able to attend a Sunday Mass other than at a chapel (like I said, it would probably be a stretch but you never know) a person would be given a sort of dispensation (for lack of a better word) rather than to sit at home. This could quite possibly be the intent of Msgr. Perl in responding to the original letter. Of course, we’ll never know since it was not made public even though Msgr. Perle’s response was. It seems quite evident that something fishy was going on if Msgr. Perl felt he needed to reply to it.

Anyways, the Church always provides for those in dire need. For an example, while confessions heard by an SSPX priest are invalid because they do not have faculties from the local bishop, they are granted emergency faculties in danger of death.

 

[katolik]

EddieArent:

Which bishops support the SSPX? As I posted, it looks like the one in Verona does.

A fellow who visited my website sent me a letter from the Orlando diocese. Here’s it word for word outside of the persons name being addressed; “St. Thomas Moore is not a church of the Catholic Diocese of Orlando and is not recognized by the Vatican.”

“Not recognized by the Vatican?”

SO does the archbishop of Ravenna. He during a sermon at Corpus Christi Mass praised the SSPX for prserving Catholic belief in the Eucharist. Listen here .[this may take some time to load but is worth it. ] THis is a talk on the SSPX’s status in Rome by Bp.Fellay.

 

[Arch_Stanton]

I am confused over how the Latin Mass inspires such bitter discord in the Church.

The traditional liturgy and even traditional baptisms (note: I mean in form) are making quite a come back in the Archdiocese of St. Paul & Minneapolis, and I believe it has been of much spiritual benefit to our people.

To be sure, there are parishes such as St. Agnes (also of St. Paul) that celebrate a new order of mass very reverently. St. Agnes is a model for Novus Ordos, and I’m sure there are others than myself who will speak for that parish, as well as St. Augustine’s in South St. Paul.

[By the way, anyone else know of good parishes?]

 

[EddieArent]

There’s also Paris. How is the bishop towards them? I guess positive for this reason. Reading a Wikipedia article about a church in Paris that the SSPX “took over” this church is rather interesting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicolas_du_Chardonnet

If the Bishop(s) in Paris wouldn’t have liked the SSPX for whatever reason, my guess is that they might have asked the police to step in like in Boston if he could.

 

[otm]

bear06:

I’m not surprised. The Vatican has even cautioned against them. However, if it came down to not, for some drastic reason, being able to attend a Sunday Mass other than at a chapel (like I said, it would probably be a stretch but you never know) a person would be given a sort of dispensation (for lack of a better word) rather than to sit at home. This could quite possibly be the intent of Msgr. Perl in responding to the original letter. Of course, we’ll never know since it was not made public even though Msgr. Perle’s response was. It seems quite evident that something fishy was going on if Msgr. Perl felt he needed to reply to it.

Anyways, the Church always provides for those in dire need. For an example, while confessions heard by an SSPX priest are invalid because they do not have faculties from the local bishop, they are granted emergency faculties in danger of death.

No, you are mistaken about any dispensation. The rule is that if you cannot physically attend Mass (ill, no church within reasonable distance, etc) then you have no obligation to attend. Attending an SSPX Mass would be similar to attending Mass in an Orthodx church. Niether satisfies the obligation as neither is in union with Rome. If there is a church available in union with Rome, attending satisfies the obligation. If there is none available, no obligation; if there is one available and you attend the SSPX or Orthodox Mass, you have not fulfilled your obligation.

 

[katolik]

EddieArent:

There’s also Paris. How is the bishop towards them? I guess positive for this reason. Reading a Wikipedia article about a church in Paris that the SSPX “took over” this church is rather interesting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicolas_du_Chardonnet

If the Bishop(s) in Paris wouldn’t have liked the SSPX for whatever reason, my guess is that they might have asked the police to step in like in Boston if he could.

That church is probably the biggest Traiditionalist church in the world today. 5 Sunday Masses with 5,000 people and Vespers each sunday. I have heard that it is down the street from Notre Dame du Paris. People say that the contrast between the number of attendents of Notre Dame and St.Ncholas is huge. About 500 attend Notre Dame and 5,000 at St.Nicholas. Imagine if there was a TLM parish for every NO Mass parish!! 11 times more people come to the TLM! And they ahve 3 daily Masses!

 

[TNT]

katolik:

That church is probably the biggest Traiditionalist church in the world today. 5 Sunday Masses with 5,000 people and Vespers each sunday. I have heard that it is down the street from Notre Dame du Paris. People say that the contrast between the number of attendents of Notre Dame and St.Ncholas is huge. About 500 attend Notre Dame and 5,000 at St.Nicholas. Imagine if there was a TLM parish for every NO Mass parish!! 11 times more people come to the TLM!

And, here it is:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
St. Nicolas du Chardonnet
Paris

 

[philipmarus]

After reading all theses posts I simply have to ask:

Prove to me Jesus spoke English?.

 

[TNT]

philipmarus:

After reading all theses posts I simply have to ask:
Prove to me Jesus spoke English?.

It’s from the Bible:
Matt 13:14 And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive (liturgical dancing)…
What language could a Jew not possibly understand?
English, of course.
Some will not believe this no matter how biblical the proof.

 

[bear06]

otm:

No, you are mistaken about any dispensation. The rule is that if you cannot physically attend Mass (ill, no church within reasonable distance, etc) then you have no obligation to attend. Attending an SSPX Mass would be similar to attending Mass in an Orthodx church. Niether satisfies the obligation as neither is in union with Rome. If there is a church available in union with Rome, attending satisfies the obligation. If there is none available, no obligation; if there is one available and you attend the SSPX or Orthodox Mass, you have not fulfilled your obligation.

OK, I did a little more research and would like to know what you think of this one, otm? It seems to contain the “extraordinary circumstances” but still does not by name mention Sunday obligation. I can’t seem to find response #1 from Msgr. Perl to the original person posing the question regarding the chapel fulfilling the Sunday obligation which the rad-Trads love to post so much (can’t believe I can’t find it!) but Msgr. Perl did say that this person would fulfill their obligation and the follow up letter which I posted the link to earlier say that this permission dealt with a specific person in a specific circumstance. What’s your thought on this, otm? Then again, we also have the “morally or physically impeded” and “strict sense” statements. Ecclesia Dei has clarified that lack of an indult doesn’t count under this. Ah well, here’s another link on the subject: home.earthlink.net/~grossklas/sundayobligation.htm

Replies from the Secretary of the “Ecclesia Dei” Commission on some questions:

May a Catholic, on a Sunday, assist and communicate at a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X or by one of their friends?

No. The celebration of Mass must be in communion with the Church, with the Pope and with the Bishop of the place. Participation at Masses celebrated by these priests which are therefore not in union with the Church, is not permitted excepting in extraordinary situations where a Mass celebrated in union with the Church cannot be had. Now, the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are not in union with the Church because of their adhearance to the schism which Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre provoked when he consecrated bishops against the will of the Pope The Pope declared this accomplished act of the 30th of June 1988 as an act of schism. (Moto Proprio “Ecclesia Dei” 2 July 1988, nos 3 - 4)

If there is no Indult Mass in his diocese, may a Catholic then frequent a chapel of the Society of St. Pius X?

No, because in every Catholic diocese there are Masses celebrated in union with the Church. Such or such a rite in itself is not a decisive question in this matter. There where there are, for example, only Masses offered by Catholic priests of the Byzantine - Ukranian rite, a Catholic must prefere these to Masses of the latin schismatics.

May we make use of canon 844 in order to justify are participation in the Sacaraments administered in the chapels and houses of the Society of St. Pius X, when we consider that an abscence of the indult Mass, close by, constitutes for us a “case of spiritual necessity” and a “moral impossibility to have recourse to a Catholic minister”?

No. The canon to which reference is made, speaks of a “physical and moral impossibility to have recourse to a Catholic minister” and not of the absence of one rite as opposed to another. There is no such thing as an absolute right to a determined rite.

If for a grave reason, we are obliged to assist at a Mass of the Society of St. Pius X (marriage, funeral, …) must we abstain from Holy Communion?

Yes, because Eucharistic Communion is also the communion with the Church (“The Church makes the Eucharist and the Eucharist makes the Church”), from which these priests are separated.

Does one commit a sin when one separates himself from the discipline of the Church concerning the Sunday precept and the way it is to be fulfilled?

Yes. The obligation is clearly expressed and explained by the Catechism of the Catholic Church in nos: 2180 - 2183

Rome, 15 April 2002
Signed: Mgr. Camille PERL, Secretary

BTW, I used the word dispensation for lack of a better one!

 

[CrusaderNY]

Because someone actually stood up to this Pope, and there is unfortunatly or possibly fortunately a groundswell of a traditional movement that keeps growing, that the Vatican does not know how to deal with. As the Pope has spent all of his pontificate making us Catholics feel sorry for all kinds of other schisms and treatment of Jews and this great Ecumenical effort, which is only fostered because he continues to support the watering down of our beliefs and our faiths, while these other religions give up nothing (A big press release was sent out because the Orthodox patriarch came to Rome, but he only came to reclaim some bones of one of their Saints), the Pope and the Bishops cant take that a solid group of Catholics are starting to question the line of brainwashing that keeps coming out of the Vatican since V2, while the pews get emptier and emptier and…

unavoce.org/father_schmidberger_march12.htm

The site above written by a Priest summarises negotioations between Bishops and JP II.

My question is this: Why are some of the laity so hard set against the Latin Mass. If it (the Latin Mass) was good enough for 1700 years, why is it wrong now?

 

[CrusaderNY]

I understand they threw the Novus Ordo out and there are more Traditional Catholics in France today than that attend the Novus Ordo. And it is not only the Mass, it is the wishy washy catechism and this entire ecumenical garbage thrown at us every day. The Pope’s main responsibility is to tend to his flock of sheep, and the sheep are running for the hills because he has let the wolves into the pen, and keeps trying to appease them. I harbor no ill will towards any other faith, but what is to gain by “Understanding them” better? They reject our Lord Jesus Christ as their savior or Messiah and then Case Closed in my mind. What is to learn about Mohammed? That he blasphemed Our Lady in the Koran? Would Pope Pius X allow this?

TNT:

And, here it is:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
St. Nicolas du Chardonnet

Paris

 

[bear06]

coming out of the Vatican since V2, while the pews get emptier and emptier and…

This might be true in your neck of the woods but not mine. Most of the churches here (even the ones I can’t stand) have standing room only on Sundays. In fact, they’ve finally started building bigger churches to accomodate the exploding Catholic population.

 

[katolik]

pnewton:

I will addess the second part of the question. I as a layman, am neither for or against any version of the Mass, primarily because I am a layman and it is not my job. I have been given permission in Redemptionis Sacramentum to address abuse, but not to define it.

As far as the SSPX is concerned, were their position to be normalized, we should all welcome them back with open arms. Until then, my only problem is that the operate outside the authority of the church and, at least here in this forum, recruit other to do the same. Should they lead someone away that recognizes the reality that Christ founded the Catholic Church, they put that person soul in jeopardy, since outside the Church there is no salvation. While the catechism recoginizes invincible ignorance as a mitigating circumstance, it does not give a special dispensation for the SSPX.

The only personal problem I have with this group is the arogance they sometimes exhibit and the disdain they show for the bride of Christ, which is my mother (e.g., mispelling Mass as mess, calling the Holy Father a heretic and the latest, calling the Roman Catholic Rite a dung heap)

1. The SSPX shows upmost respect for the bride of Christ, the Church, Our Mother
2. The Pope is not a heretic. Ask any SSPX priest
3. I meant this mass confusion that exists in the Roman Catholic Church. I too am of the Roman Catholic Rite and I am also in the “dung heap” with you

 

[Exporter]

CrusaderNY:

Because someone actually stood up to this Pope, and there is unfortunatly or possibly fortunately a groundswell of a traditional movement that keeps growing, that the Vatican does not know how to deal with. As the Pope has spent all of his pontificate making us Catholics feel sorry for all kinds of other schisms and treatment of Jews and this great Ecumenical effort, which is only fostered because he continues to support the watering down of our beliefs and our faiths, while these other religions give up nothing (A big press release was sent out because the Orthodox patriarch came to Rome, but he only came to reclaim some bones of one of their Saints), the Pope and the Bishops cant take that a solid group of Catholics are starting to question the line of brainwashing that keeps coming out of the Vatican since V2, while the pews get emptier and emptier and…

---

Crusader, I like what you say, I agree with you too. Trying to be more Protestant is not working. We used to need three Priests in my Church, now there are two. Someone has HIRED an organist, before we had a volunteer who was great. There are empty pews on Sunday. Now there are laymen teaching the Confirmation Classes. I agree.