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FuzzyBunny116
Guest
By this I mean that with the advantage of the Sacraments, namely the Holy Eucharist, why are Catholics no noticeably more holy than members of any other denomination?
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littleone
Guest
I believe that one has to remember not to judge here in this question.
However I think that much of what catholics do is so as to speak “covert to the world”. Putting it another way, Jesus tells us that if you wish to do anything good, do not let your left hand know what the right hand does. Those who do things so that they get praise, have been blessed and therefore our Father in heaven will not bless them. So it is not a point of who looks as though they are doing good but who God sees as is doing good.
I think that is our answer, or one of.
God bless
littleone
However I think that much of what catholics do is so as to speak “covert to the world”. Putting it another way, Jesus tells us that if you wish to do anything good, do not let your left hand know what the right hand does. Those who do things so that they get praise, have been blessed and therefore our Father in heaven will not bless them. So it is not a point of who looks as though they are doing good but who God sees as is doing good.
I think that is our answer, or one of.
God bless
littleone
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Another good question! When you think about it, we really should be very holy people - a community of holiness. Being Catholic is a great responsibility and accountability as well as being a wondrous gift.
Barb
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cyberwolf001
Guest
A combination of cowardice, laziness and apathy. It’s that simple.
Many don’t want to put in the work to better themselves, many are afraid to let others know they are Catholic (I lived in this area all my life and I didn’t truly know a single Catholic till last year!) They are afraid to evangelize and they are afraid to speak up.
Finally there is the apathy which I can sum up like this: “Of the making up of excuses for the laziness and cowardice that many ‘Catholics’ display there is no end.”
Many don’t want to put in the work to better themselves, many are afraid to let others know they are Catholic (I lived in this area all my life and I didn’t truly know a single Catholic till last year!) They are afraid to evangelize and they are afraid to speak up.
Finally there is the apathy which I can sum up like this: “Of the making up of excuses for the laziness and cowardice that many ‘Catholics’ display there is no end.”
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water
Guest
First, all the sacraments are valid. Therefore, don’t let a non-Catholic say that the sacraments are not working. Another true fact, most of people who convert to Catholic have come to the Church is because of the Eucharist - that is a big proof how God’s grace works.
Can a famous trainer make all his athletes fast runners? - It depends on the athletics who are willing to dedicate himself to training. Can a Yale-graduated Math teacher make all of his students know how to solve Math? - It also depends on how hard the students studies and do his homework.
In the same way, God always pours down graces to all of us, but if we are not accepting them, are not repenting for our sins or not doing what Jesus taught us to do, then we block those graces and thus cannot become holy.
God wants us to corporate with Him in all things, and it is our will to accept that.
Another true fact, most of people who convert to Catholic have come to the Church is because of the Eucharist - that is a big proof how God’s grace works.Can a famous trainer make all his athletes fast runners? - It depends on the athletics who are willing to dedicate himself to training. Can a Yale-graduated Math teacher make all of his students know how to solve Math? - It also depends on how hard the students studies and do his homework.
In the same way, God always pours down graces to all of us, but if we are not accepting them, are not repenting for our sins or not doing what Jesus taught us to do, then we block those graces and thus cannot become holy.
God wants us to corporate with Him in all things, and it is our will to accept that.
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Good posts…
It sort of hit me with impact when I read the Opening Post that we do make really BIG claims for Catholicism…and we have the duty and obligation to reveal the fruits. To back up our claims! Our very first witness is the person we are. It was said of the early Christians “see how they love one another”. That is a very high bar set for us!!!
There is a parable about this, I cant recall just at the moment and for some reason the Douay Rheims translation site is down, and that is the site I find with the best search engine. I’ll try to find the parable.
For me personally, the OP was most sobering indeed - indeed!
Blessings - Barb
Edit: I found the parable:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-27
Parable of The Talents
It sort of hit me with impact when I read the Opening Post that we do make really BIG claims for Catholicism…and we have the duty and obligation to reveal the fruits. To back up our claims! Our very first witness is the person we are. It was said of the early Christians “see how they love one another”. That is a very high bar set for us!!!
There is a parable about this, I cant recall just at the moment and for some reason the Douay Rheims translation site is down, and that is the site I find with the best search engine. I’ll try to find the parable.
For me personally, the OP was most sobering indeed - indeed!
Blessings - Barb
Edit: I found the parable:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-27
Parable of The Talents
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cyberwolf001
Guest
I’d like to add on that people seem to have gotten comfy if the fact this is the One True Faith and the Gates of Hell Won’t Prevail…
I can’t help but think of we keep breaking our end of the deal that God might just decided to make the offer to a different Church. He’s done it in the Bible. (I hope that isn’t Heresy I just spoke…)
I can’t help but think of we keep breaking our end of the deal that God might just decided to make the offer to a different Church. He’s done it in the Bible. (I hope that isn’t Heresy I just spoke…)
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littleone
Guest
You know I’m a catholic and that’s where I am. Idon’t have any proof of God saying we above others will go toHeaven but I do believe that ALL denominations (people) are called and so If I am in the catholic church it is not whether Iam there or not but whether i am following Jesus Christ example and acting the Gospel in not just words, but in FAITH and in that in actions.
God bless
littleone
God bless
littleone
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dove51
Guest
I think holiness is often a state of mind, or heart. If I could have a holier heart, I doubt many would notice, but oh, what a difference it would make!
It may seem that Catholics are no holier than any other normal person, but I think this might be because we’re taught that making our good deeds known makes them null and void. After all, “A good work talked about is a good work spoiled.” (St. Vincent de Paul).
It may seem that Catholics are no holier than any other normal person, but I think this might be because we’re taught that making our good deeds known makes them null and void. After all, “A good work talked about is a good work spoiled.” (St. Vincent de Paul).
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
I agree with both your points, Dove51 and hi there!
There is a world of difference between boasting etc. and witnessing or evangelizing and I am sure St. Vincent would have been talking more about the boasting kind of matter? Do you think that St. Vincent may have been speaking about boasting about one’s good works?..and if so, then it spoils the good work for sure. In another case, one is not boasting, but for some reason one discerns that to share the doing of a good work may have some positive result. We need that great gift of discernment. Amen.
Barb
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pray4peace
Guest
I don’t think anyone knows how holy Catholics are compared to other denominations, only God knows this.
Sacraments give us grace which help us on our journey to becoming holy, but they are not a guarantee to being holy. We are all called to be holy and to be saints. How we cooperate with God’s graces and practice virtues is up to us.
Blessings
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cyberwolf001
Guest
I think a lot of people forget something. If you live a Holy Life it tends to show up to people you can tell this. The argument I’m hearing so often no how to evangelize people is “Live a Holy Life and people will notice and come to the Church.”
However if one argues that living a Holy Life can’t be detected or at the least is very difficult to detect. One can no longer use the “Living a Holy Life is the BEST for of evangelism” argument.
However if one argues that living a Holy Life can’t be detected or at the least is very difficult to detect. One can no longer use the “Living a Holy Life is the BEST for of evangelism” argument.
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brigid12
Guest
Boy! I really agree, Barb, that this needs to be our main evangelization and it sure is hard…I think I need more Sacraments!Good posts…
It sort of hit me with impact when I read the Opening Post that we do make really BIG claims for Catholicism…and we have the duty and obligation to reveal the fruits. To back up our claims! Our very first witness is the person we are. It was said of the early Christians “see how they love one another”. That is a very high bar set for us!!!
Blessings - Barb
I need to be able to see Christ’s face in everyone - I’m sure not able to do that myself!
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Agree all statements, Brigid…absolutely:thumbsup:Boy! I really agree, Barb, that this needs to be our main evangelization and it sure is hard…I think I need more Sacraments!
Especially, I need the gift to see beyond whatever I may not particularly like and acknowledge that my whole vision is not whole at all, and see the person God is in love with!!! The person God dances for the very joy of always.
I recall in school being told we have to love everyone but we cannot like everyone and don’t have to…I am coming to the conclusion that that can be an excuse and a cop out giving me an excuse with some to rest happily and smugly - and self righteously - in not liking them.
Barb
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blessedstar
Guest
1 Holiness does not come from the self, but all holiness proceeds from God.
2 Holiness goes about in humility and is very unassuming
3 Anyone who is truly holy will only see their own faults, failings and sins and unless God grants them graces to see their own goodness given to them by Him they are for the most part oblivious to their own goodness.
4 Anyone who is truly holy does not look at the faults of others, but tries to encourage others, helps them to carry their cross, protects others from them ‘self’ and is always merciful in all they do, say and think
5 Anyone who is holy knows that they are not perfect and neither is anyone else, they know they are striving along the road to holiness and they do not judge
6 Anyone who is holy serves man not because of his love of man alone, but primarily because of his love of God. Therefore it must not be mistaken that loving others and serving others is a sign of holiness on its own because to love God and all of His decrees is the channel by which God imparts holiness ‘Even you who are evil do not give your son a snake when he asks for bread’.
7 Anyone who is striving to be holy knows that even the evil one can make what is evil appear good.
8 What the Catholic Church proclaims she does not be her own volition or by her own merit or earned the knowledge some way, but she knows that all has been gifted in the Revelations of Christ Jesus Who Himself did not turn the sinner away and the Church and her preaching of Divinely Revealed Truths are sustained and unfolded by the Holy Spirit. As even faith is a gift imparted by God through the Mystical nature of the Catholic Church and conferred upon men who receive this gift.
9 Each man has been given a measure and so to that degree he will achieve holiness by God’s grace. It is not for men to judge degrees or measures and to each man he has his lot and each man must strive in his lot.
10 Holy people for the most part do not display their holiness in ways that make other people instantly think ‘oh look at them and how holy they are’ Or ‘look at that person and all their devotions and prayers, how holy they are’ or ‘look at them at Mass everyday, they are so pious and raising money for this and for that aren’t they holy’ or ‘look at them always talking with God and carrying their Rosary beads, they are so holy’ because holiness is not any of these things, but holiness is a state of soul that God has drawn the soul into and it must be remembered that even satan talks a great deal with God and even Judas spoke and walked and went about with Jesus. Even Jesus’ critics and enemies turned up to hear Him speak and teach.
Then similarly, some may say ‘look at them always working and they only go to Mass once a week on Sundays and I never see them praying, they are not very committed, they are not holy’ or ‘look at them, they come and go from the Parish and they don’t seem to be doing any good works to what I know of, they are poor Catholics’ or ‘look at them they are always talking about secular things and never talk about God to me, they must not be very interested in their faith’ or ‘look at them always off enjoying themselves,holidaying here, going off there, they are too worldly, they don’t care about God’ But those who are following God, ‘go out’ they go out into the world and they take Jesus with them, they hide themselves in Jesus and they don’t want to be noticed as being ‘holy’, they pray with their work, they pray at home by themselves, they do good and they are kind to all, it is simply they do not make a big show of themselves; they keep a low profile and do not hold themself to be in esteem, they are not looking for the praise of men, but the praise of God and keep their works secret and do things not letting anyone know and they suffer much and a great deal of gossip and specualtion and never murmur a word in retort. Sometimes God will reveal these people to be Saints and does so for His own glory and to edify the faithful, otherwise for reasons best known to God these people go about and are not known as saints to others as it is always the case that people criticise when souls do wrong and they criticise when souls do good and no man can win, but these little saints go about unnoticed and hidden.
So for all my waffle above, that amounts to nothing, I hold it cannot be said that Catholics are no holier than others. All are sinners, the difference with Catholics is that their faith will make them well and it will be Jesus Who heals their sickness of soul and for this reason they keep going up to God’s House to praise and thank Him and God willing on their last day or at the Last Day, for we must always expect the Last Day in either event, God will finally heal them of all of their ills as they are truly sorry and bless them eternally because they believed in Him and did their best within their measure to love Him and each other.
In the Living Prayer of my life
2 Holiness goes about in humility and is very unassuming
3 Anyone who is truly holy will only see their own faults, failings and sins and unless God grants them graces to see their own goodness given to them by Him they are for the most part oblivious to their own goodness.
4 Anyone who is truly holy does not look at the faults of others, but tries to encourage others, helps them to carry their cross, protects others from them ‘self’ and is always merciful in all they do, say and think
5 Anyone who is holy knows that they are not perfect and neither is anyone else, they know they are striving along the road to holiness and they do not judge
6 Anyone who is holy serves man not because of his love of man alone, but primarily because of his love of God. Therefore it must not be mistaken that loving others and serving others is a sign of holiness on its own because to love God and all of His decrees is the channel by which God imparts holiness ‘Even you who are evil do not give your son a snake when he asks for bread’.
7 Anyone who is striving to be holy knows that even the evil one can make what is evil appear good.
8 What the Catholic Church proclaims she does not be her own volition or by her own merit or earned the knowledge some way, but she knows that all has been gifted in the Revelations of Christ Jesus Who Himself did not turn the sinner away and the Church and her preaching of Divinely Revealed Truths are sustained and unfolded by the Holy Spirit. As even faith is a gift imparted by God through the Mystical nature of the Catholic Church and conferred upon men who receive this gift.
9 Each man has been given a measure and so to that degree he will achieve holiness by God’s grace. It is not for men to judge degrees or measures and to each man he has his lot and each man must strive in his lot.
10 Holy people for the most part do not display their holiness in ways that make other people instantly think ‘oh look at them and how holy they are’ Or ‘look at that person and all their devotions and prayers, how holy they are’ or ‘look at them at Mass everyday, they are so pious and raising money for this and for that aren’t they holy’ or ‘look at them always talking with God and carrying their Rosary beads, they are so holy’ because holiness is not any of these things, but holiness is a state of soul that God has drawn the soul into and it must be remembered that even satan talks a great deal with God and even Judas spoke and walked and went about with Jesus. Even Jesus’ critics and enemies turned up to hear Him speak and teach.
Then similarly, some may say ‘look at them always working and they only go to Mass once a week on Sundays and I never see them praying, they are not very committed, they are not holy’ or ‘look at them, they come and go from the Parish and they don’t seem to be doing any good works to what I know of, they are poor Catholics’ or ‘look at them they are always talking about secular things and never talk about God to me, they must not be very interested in their faith’ or ‘look at them always off enjoying themselves,holidaying here, going off there, they are too worldly, they don’t care about God’ But those who are following God, ‘go out’ they go out into the world and they take Jesus with them, they hide themselves in Jesus and they don’t want to be noticed as being ‘holy’, they pray with their work, they pray at home by themselves, they do good and they are kind to all, it is simply they do not make a big show of themselves; they keep a low profile and do not hold themself to be in esteem, they are not looking for the praise of men, but the praise of God and keep their works secret and do things not letting anyone know and they suffer much and a great deal of gossip and specualtion and never murmur a word in retort. Sometimes God will reveal these people to be Saints and does so for His own glory and to edify the faithful, otherwise for reasons best known to God these people go about and are not known as saints to others as it is always the case that people criticise when souls do wrong and they criticise when souls do good and no man can win, but these little saints go about unnoticed and hidden.
So for all my waffle above, that amounts to nothing, I hold it cannot be said that Catholics are no holier than others. All are sinners, the difference with Catholics is that their faith will make them well and it will be Jesus Who heals their sickness of soul and for this reason they keep going up to God’s House to praise and thank Him and God willing on their last day or at the Last Day, for we must always expect the Last Day in either event, God will finally heal them of all of their ills as they are truly sorry and bless them eternally because they believed in Him and did their best within their measure to love Him and each other.
In the Living Prayer of my life
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puzzleannie
Guest
since neither you nor I nor anyone else is in any position to know or judge the interior disposition of any individual (still less of a whole group) it is simply impossible to make such an observation. Holiness is not running around wearing a “look at me I am so holy” t-shirt. If you mean to say: they Catholics I know are not noticeably kinder, virtuous, or patient than others I know, then say so. Yes it is quite true that many people of any denomination are not yet able to translate their devotion and belief in the gospel to their actual life activities, but they are still working on it, so don’t judge.
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ANGELIC_PEACE
Guest
well it is the catholic faith which has all the apparitions…and has saints and miracles…but at the end of the day it is down to individual holiness…there can be people of other faiths that are closer to god than us and vice versa…it is each persons individual choice to have a relationship with god that draws them closer to god and thus makes them holier
ANGELIC PEACE
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Well I have a different take on this…
While, yes, we need to always have good works and treat other with love in this world… there is also this scripture…
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew6.htm
Matthew Ch 6
While, yes, we need to always have good works and treat other with love in this world… there is also this scripture…
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew6.htm
Matthew Ch 6
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bankerdavid
Guest
In other words, Catholics are human, first and foremost.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Somehow I don’t think God will except that excuse…
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