Why are Catholics no holier than others?

[THutch04]

Just because people seem to have such normal outer lives doesn’t mean that internally they aren’t truly holy people. There have been many Saints who people didn’t understand why they had such recognition, because they didn’t appear any different (such as Saint Therese).

 

[FCEGM]

By this I mean that with the advantage of the Sacraments, namely the Holy Eucharist, why are Catholics no noticeably more holy than members of any other denomination?

As others have already well said, we are not to judge the holiness of others, though we can certainly pray that all become wholely transformed in Christ.

That said, you have to ask yourself where are the equivalents in the denominations of St. Teresa of Jesus, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese of the Child Jesus, St. Benedict, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Ignatius of Antioch, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum? These are the one we should be looking towards emulating, the incomparably great Mystics and Doctors of the Church.

 

[Kevin42]

I do not know if this has been mentioned, but I believe that most Catholics have a quiet faith, that they will not boast about. Alot of times, I think this causes their holiness to go unnoticed by society. However, I know many Catholics who are very holy people. Of course, we can all be holier, and it is good to work to increase holiness and faith within the Church. Ghandi actually gives us a good way to start working to this when he says, “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Peace.

 

[bankerdavid]

Somehow I don’t think God will except that excuse…

When we repent and resolve to be better people, He does. And forgives us.

 

[Charitychick]

This is no excuse. But, I think Catholics are attacked more by the devil. Of course, we have more protections, too. But, sometimes we forget…

 

[Orionthehunter]

By this I mean that with the advantage of the Sacraments, namely the Holy Eucharist, why are Catholics no noticeably more holy than members of any other denomination?

If you were to ask 100 random people who has been the most holy person who has lived during their lifetime, who do you think would top the list? Probably Mother Theresa. Who would be second? Probably Pope Paul II.

If you asked them to name the most Holy person they have known, it would probably be their pastor or a parent or spouse or best friend.

The circle of friends and family I have has a heavy preponderance of Catholics so I will reach the assessment that the holiest people I know are Catholics. One whose friends and family are Baptist would reach the conclusion that the holiest people he knows are Baptists.

But that would tell us nothing. Only God can see the true interior state of a person. We can only have a small measure of capacity to assess (not judge) the outward appearance of Holiness of those we know.

Instead of looking to judge/assess others who we know, we should be looking inward on why we aren’t more Holy and why people don’t see more holiness in us.

I think a lot of people forget something. If you live a Holy Life it tends to show up to people you can tell this. The argument I’m hearing so often no how to evangelize people is “Live a Holy Life and people will notice and come to the Church.”

However if one argues that living a Holy Life can’t be detected or at the least is very difficult to detect. One can no longer use the “Living a Holy Life is the BEST for of evangelism” argument.

I personally believe that my best testament of my faith in Christ is my outward life. It begins with how well I love my wife and kids, how well I display that I rely on Christ to them. My friends, co-workers, and acquaintances will assess my holiness by how I show sympathy, empathy and Christian love to them.

Only then if they see me living a Christian life, will anyone be interested in hearing me preach Scripture.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Jesus has said “how can you love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can”. If I love God then what is living in me is God’s love which reaches out to every creature compassionately and lovingly…God dances for the joy of us said, I think it was, Julian of Norwich. Hence, if we love God, then we love others. And as I quoted from Scripture, from what Jesus said, our love of God is revealed in love of others and if I am not loving others, living in Loving Charity, then Jesus says I cannot love God at all.

---

well it is the catholic faith which has all the apparitions…and has saints and miracles…but at the end of the day it is down to individual holiness…there can be people of other faiths that are closer to god than us and vice versa…it is each persons individual choice to have a relationship with god that draws them closer to god and thus makes them holier

ANGELIC PEACE

Excellent post Angelic Peace:thumbsup:

 

[BarbaraTherese]

If you were to ask 100 random people who has been the most holy person who has lived during their lifetime, who do you think would top the list? Probably Mother Theresa. Who would be second? Probably Pope Paul II.

If you asked them to name the most Holy person they have known, it would probably be their pastor or a parent or spouse or best friend.

The circle of friends and family I have has a heavy preponderance of Catholics so I will reach the assessment that the holiest people I know are Catholics. One whose friends and family are Baptist would reach the conclusion that the holiest people he knows are Baptists.

But that would tell us nothing. Only God can see the true interior state of a person. We can only have a small measure of capacity to assess (not judge) the outward appearance of Holiness of those we know.

Instead of looking to judge/assess others who we know, we should be looking inward on why we aren’t more Holy and why people don’t see more holiness in us.

I personally believe that my best testament of my faith in Christ is my outward life. It begins with how well I love my wife and kids, how well I display that I rely on Christ to them. My friends, co-workers, and acquaintances will assess my holiness by how I show sympathy, empathy and Christian love to them.

Only then if they see me living a Christian life, will anyone be interested in hearing me preach Scripture.

Good Post!

I personally believe that my best testament of my faith in Christ is my outward life. It begins with how well I love my wife and kids, how well I display that I rely on Christ to them. My friends, co-workers, and acquaintances will assess my holiness by how I show sympathy, empathy and Christian love to them.

Only then if they see me living a Christian life, will anyone be interested in hearing me preach Scripture./

Well said! The person we are speaks before we ever say a word…and who we are will either testify to what we say, or detract from it.

“No one lights a light to put it under a bushel. Your light must shine before men, who seeing will give Glory to Your Father in Heaven”

“I have come to set fire on the earth, and how I wish it were ablaze already”.

Blessings - Barb
PS One of the kindest and most gentlest person, sensitive to the needs of others and humbly going about good without any sort of boast was a Mormon. We can be inclined to think that Jesus is exclusive to Catholicism

 

[byers]

I do not know if this has been mentioned, but I believe that most Catholics have a quiet faith, that they will not boast about. Alot of times, I think this causes their holiness to go unnoticed by society. However, I know many Catholics who are very holy people. Of course, we can all be holier, and it is good to work to increase holiness and faith within the Church. Ghandi actually gives us a good way to start working to this when he says, “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Peace.

Kevin this is very perceptive. And I particularly noticed the expression “they will not boast…”. I do as a very general rule find Catholics to be more humble than most. Truly holy people are ALWAYS humble.

 

[water]

I do not know if this has been mentioned, but I believe that most Catholics have a quiet faith, that they will not boast about. Alot of times, I think this causes their holiness to go unnoticed by society. However, I know many Catholics who are very holy people. Of course, we can all be holier, and it is good to work to increase holiness and faith within the Church. Ghandi actually gives us a good way to start working to this when he says, “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

Peace.

Kevin this is very perceptive. And I particularly noticed the expression “they will not boast…”. I do as a very general rule find Catholics to be more humble than most. Truly holy people are ALWAYS humble.

The holier he is, the more sins and unworthy he sees of himself. We realize that in many writings and lives of many Saints.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The holier he is, the more sins and unworthy he sees of himself. We realize that in many writings and lives of many Saints.

Well said I think. I recall when I was first reading St. Teresa of Avila and she calls herself “miserable worm”, being quite taken aback since she was obviously so holy and having visions and locutions, ecstasy. I sort of thought to myself she is probably being humble - and back then in my twenties I though that humble was some conscious act one was being about. Later I realized that so holy was St. Teresa that she indeed saw herself as nothing but a miserable worm in comparison with God of whom she had some intuition in truth. I then concluded that saints are not uttering ‘pious platitudes’ as it were (I do not mean this in a derogatory sense)…they really do see themselves as “miserable worms” and their humility is a state of being, not conscious acts performed.
We have recently had the feast of St. Margaret Mary Alaquoce. Her penances to mortify herself were so extreme, they were quite sickening. I’ve noticed from the internet that they are no longer in print it seems…I have not heard if perhaps the penances were untrue. I first read about them in my teens. Either untrue or no longer publicized, I guess - they were pretty revolting. I think her Confessor stopped her.

Blessings - Barb
PS I have wondered quite a few times what the poor worms did to St. Teresa for her to have such a lowly opinion of them!!!

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<y this I mean that with the advantage of the Sacraments, namely the Holy Eucharist, why are Catholics no noticeably more holy than members of any other denomination?>>

And of course, God has given you the gift to see into people’s hearts and discern who is more holy than whom, right?

It must be a TERRIBLE burden.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

<<y this I mean that with the advantage of the Sacraments, namely the Holy Eucharist, why are Catholics no noticeably more holy than members of any other denomination?>>

And of course, God has given you the gift to see into people’s hearts and discern who is more holy than whom, right?

It must be a TERRIBLE burden.

…That is funnyhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Hi there Bpbasilphx…I think I denote a ‘tongue in the cheek?’ Absolutely no ‘t i c’ in reply.

Undoubtedly with the Mass and The Sacraments we should indeed be very holy people…and perhaps we are. Many of our saints once passed away and their lives revealed while seemingly during their lifetimes to have lived ordinary lives - but rather lived the ordinary in a very extra ordinary manner. We are, as The Church not a club for saints, however…rather a hope and potential for sinners to achieve beyond themselves.
In The Mass in our prayers for our membership and the needs of others and the whole world, we have a very beautiful prayer re those whose “faith is known only to Thee”.

To be called by God to Catholicism is a great gift and a great Joy and priviledge and a wondrous source of Grace. We are blest outstandingly in our theology which is total mercy and compassion, understanding…Catholicism is also an outstanding responsibility and accountability before God and simply because of all He has given to His Church.

We do not generally receive the gift of discernment … it is a special gift of God to whom He pleases and not at all confined to Catholicism as holiness and God’s Rich Array and Showering of Graces are not. Much of the transactions in these forums are people exchanging advice in loving fellowship and fraternity and in mutual concern and mutual support. These forums are also a rich source of information about our Faith. We welcome in our midst all expressions of Faith with Joy and sense of fraternity as human beings and loved children of God. There are exceptions that serve to prove those rules.
As a family we are really quite ordinary and will argue etc. much as in the funtioning of any and all families. Nothing wrong with a healthy disagreement of opinions. Doesn’t make it right I know if argument gets nasty in any way…it is just the way things are in families. In the main we are patriotic and fiercy loyal to our Faith and our Church and at times to a true fault and sadly. As Catholics we remain faulted human beings sharing the one humanity with all Catholic or not…and with all we share the fact that God loves us with abandon witnessed to in The Incarnation which is our foundation - Christ.

Thanks heaps and heaps for the opportunity of sharing:thumbsup:

God’s Blessings with Peace and Joy…regards…Barb

 

[littleone]

I think holiness is often a state of mind, or heart. If I could have a holier heart, I doubt many would notice, but oh, what a difference it would make!

It may seem that Catholics are no holier than any other normal person, but I think this might be because we’re taught that making our good deeds known makes them null and void. After all, “A good work talked about is a good work spoiled.” (St. Vincent de Paul).

Just my point and the bible states that Jesus own words.
God bless
littleone

 

[St_Gabriel]

All holiness comes from God who is Holy and shows no partiality.

I find that it’s hard to see the holiness in others when the world is covered in the fog of sin. So sometimes we don’t recognize it when it is standing right in front of us. For example,

I have been amazed at some of the funerals/wakes that I have attended when I have recalled or was told about the life of the person who died (Catholic and Non Catholic). The humility of some were so astounding for others it was their generosity or many small acts of kindness towards others. I didn’t get the full picture until after they had passed away because I was so self-absorbed and had taken them for granted while they were alive.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Well said I think. I recall when I was first reading St. Teresa of Avila and she calls herself “miserable worm”, being quite taken aback since she was obviously so holy and having visions and locutions, ecstasy. I sort of thought to myself she is probably being humble - and back then in my twenties I though that humble was some conscious act one was being about. Later I realized that so holy was St. Teresa that she indeed saw herself as nothing but a miserable worm in comparison with God of whom she had some intuition in truth. I then concluded that saints are not uttering ‘pious platitudes’ as it were (I do not mean this in a derogatory sense)…they really do see themselves as “miserable worms” and their humility is a state of being, not conscious acts performed.
We have recently had the feast of St. Margaret Mary Alaquoce. Her penances to mortify herself were so extreme, they were quite sickening. I’ve noticed from the internet that they are no longer in print it seems…I have not heard if perhaps the penances were untrue. I first read about them in my teens. Either untrue or no longer publicized, I guess - they were pretty revolting. I think her Confessor stopped her.

Blessings - Barb
PS I have wondered quite a few times what the poor worms did to St. Teresa for her to have such a lowly opinion of them!!!

Thanks Barb for bringing up St. Teresa of Avila. One thing that stood out in my mind as I read her life was how she always asked God to place her sins before the eyes of everyone that she encountered so that they wouldn’t think she was great. How humble is that!

 

[murpho]

catholics are by no means holier or better than any other denomination. perhaps they are more sedate in their worship and more careful as well as tradtional.

its worth remembering that religion is business. the more numbers to a particular religion or denomination the more money that religion makes.

 

[littleone]

Originally Posted by cyberwolf001
A combination of cowardice, laziness and apathy. It’s that simple.
Many don’t want to put in the work to better themselves, many are afraid to let others know they are Catholic (I lived in this area all my life and I didn’t truly know a single Catholic**** till last year!) They are afraid to evangelize and they are afraid to speak up.
Finally there is the apathy which I can sum up like this: “Of the making up of excuses for the laziness and cowardice that many ‘Catholics’ display there is no end.”

I noticed that you use the word “I and they” often in your speach. In psychology they call this an “external atribution bias”. What it means is to externalize the situation and blame others for the speakersr own misgivings. Taking away the cause of the situation where the speaker might have not even looked to see good works, deeds, words, not taken any notice. Jesus tells us about those who went into the chapel and said "Lord I thank you that I am not like those tax collectors I this and I that I tithe and I pray this and that…we all know what Jesus tells us will happen to the externalizer. Please don’t be like this we can see God’s light in others when we look to God in them and NOT to what we want to see from our perspective. God is LOVE He alone tells us that HE is to judge, we the flock are to love as Jesus loves.

When the soul is given the chance to love there is no room for other than LOVE. Love drives out all thought of not loving Jesus.

Godbless
littleone

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thanks Barb for bringing up St. Teresa of Avila. One thing that stood out in my mind as I read her life was how she always asked God to place her sins before the eyes of everyone that she encountered so that they wouldn’t think she was great. How humble is that!

Hi St. Gabriel!..hey, that aint humble, that is downright scarey!
When I was in primary school the nuns told us that at Final Judgement, the whole world would be assembled and each and every person would have to go the front on their own and face the world as all …ALL…their sins and offences were read out for everyone to hear!!! My goodness, did that light a fire under me with fear and trembling and absolute horror! Those dear nuns that taught me, I drank in every single last world of theirs and clung to it religiously. Most was to my distinct blessings and advantages…other things still scare me (like their Final Judgement concepts (fallible) and still have that power.

St. Teresa of Avila was a particularly very humble person…very humble indeed. Perhaps this was due to the outstanding favours God gifted her. To me, loosely speaking, she is par excellance example of deep, abiding and living humility apart from Jesus, Mary and Joseph. The thing to me about St. Teresa and her appeal to me of being humble, is that all her writings reveal this quality…oh St. Paul is another one for me.

Blessings with The Lord’s Joyful Peace…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

catholics are by no means holier or better than any other denomination. perhaps they are more sedate in their worship and more careful as well as tradtional.

its worth remembering that religion is business. the more numbers to a particular religion or denomination the more money that religion makes.

In part I think you are correct that religion is run as a business. Certainly for a Church like Catholicism and the numbers involved it takes money, to function in the world as it is, to keep things running. However, most religions - certainly the mainstream religions, do try to put Christ and His Message first and may stumble and make mistakes along that path…The Churches are comprised of human beings, faulted human beings.

On the other hand, I dont think we have ever given it a try really as a Catholic Church overall, to forget all about the money aspect and just invest in the Message of Christ, even if it means we are dead broke and loosing the numbers game. The mere accessing of a site that retails and legitemately sells with prices for priestly vestments and various Church necessities such as chalices etc. sent shudders down my spine. The cost of a bishops robes and even a priests are amazing and worth shuddering over…there was nothing on the site for Cardinals nor His Holiness.

On the other hand, I am all for a religion making money if that money is being spent on investing in some way in the Message of Christ and His Gospel.

Such matters are sure worth discussing I think and putting forward opinions without tearing at each other - there is no need at all to attack the person simply because one cannot agree with their opinon and concepts. The first law of Christ, is the Law of Love - all other rules are enshrined in this one Rule and “if I say I love God whom I cannot see and I do not love myneighbour whom I can see, I am a liar”.

Blessings, Peace and Joy…Barb