Why are Catholics often this way?

[Ronald_E]

blossom, You said you were lazy. Being unmotivated is not lazy. I know that the Grace of God was working on me unconsciously all the 40 years I was away. When Grace hit me so strong or when its presence opened my eyes and actually made me new there was no choice for me to make. I knew exactly where I needed to be.
Every sin I committed taught me an important lesson as the light revealed my sins and the effects they had on God’s whole creation. Shame took on a new influence. Instead of hiding with shame I could now reveal my shame and not only ask God’s forgiveness but also go to those I hurt with my sins and somehow express my sorrow and shame to them for their healing.
Once I recognized God’s Grace in me laziness was a label that did not help me define my lack of motivation. Grace helps me to know and love God. The label of laziness may mean that Grace still has more work to perform in us and mature us in our path towards Him.

 

[Lapell]

Ronald E, NOW you know that Grace has been working in you. But back then, have you always sensed it?

 

[Ronald_E]

Lapelle, Back then what I sensed was that I was not good enough in comparison to other human beings. My mother was a Catholic who did not practice our faith. The first 8 years of her life were spent in a Catholic orphanage with her 2 older sisters due to the death of their mother. My father was a non-practicing Baptist. My mother had me baptized when I was 6.
I had no concept of Grace then. I had a lot of anxiety associated with shame and the hatred of authority who appeared so stern and unloving. Experiences which harmed my faith were created by my teachers of my faith in which I was unjustly accused of a wrongful act and my parents were too afraid to confront the religious who had committed this wrong.
So I went into hiding and did the right things in public and hated them and myself in private. It was the development of conscience that prevented me from going too far away.
As I look back I would never change a thing. I could not have the love I have for my faith without understanding what influenced me to hate it in the first place.
Those on this site who say we reject Grace are greatly mistaken. There is no way one can possibly reject Grace when it is given to them. Grace is so bright and clear and consuming that to leave it or reject it would be impossible or so painful that rejection of Grace would have to be insanity.
Thank you for asking. I don’t know if I answered your question.

 

[estesbob]

I love it when non-Catholic Xians accuse Catholics of being ignorant of their religion. When you ask them to tell you about their religion, their answer is usually, “We believe that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.”

Well, if that’s all we Catholics had to know, to know our religion, we would be as smart as all other Christians.

Let’s face it, Catholics have a lot to know. Getting even a basic education in Catholicism takes time and commitment. Think of how many times we’ve explained the Eucharist, concepts about Mary, Papal infallibility, etc. We state the facts, and the people asking still don’t get it.

I think they can stop calling us ignorant.

Agreed(Although the OP is Jewish) There are nearly a Billion Catholics in the world. The fact one can find some who dont understand all the doctrines should be of no suprise to anyone.

Years ago I was on a 20 hour (each way) ride to the Promise Keepers Rally in DC. I sat next to a guy who was had just completed a 22 part course in evangelizing Catholics. He asked me what the Immaculate Conception was-I carefully explained the Doctrine to him an He huffed and said “most catholics dont know that” I said"all the ones I know do" That was the end of the conversation.

With all due respect to the OP he is just another of a long line of non-catholics who come to CAF just to proclaim they know more about our Faith than we do. It gets a bit tiresome after a while.

 

[Lapell]

Well, Ronald E, I think you did indeed.
God bless you abundantly…

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello HollyDolly,

:harp: hard to say really.My parents grew up in the 20s and 30s
and were taught by nuns,and I think things were different back in their day. my dad later on attended Marquette University and studied apologetics with the Jesuits there.I fortunately took CCD class with the Brigidine Sisters at St.Paul’s in San Antonio and the sisters were very good.They were my inspiration to want to be an nun,though in later life due to my mother being sick and my dad too in old age,never got to the convent.

…

I try to read different books on the faith,haven’t read the Confessions of St.Augustine, but had in the past read Introduction to the Devout Life by St.Francis De Sales.
I even enjoy learning about the Cathars and some of the early heresies because I love history.

This is a great post for a couple of reasons.

I would like to concentrate on the reading choices first. I have read both books you mention and they are excellent. I have personally always felt the Francis DeSales is really an exception to the idea that the Patristic era ended in the eight century, with him it again lives.

I would like to recommend some others but they are too numerous to list. Paulist Press has a great deal of wonderful reading material, the selections of topic and translators are excellent and well thought out, the source is trustworthy. If you can afford it you owe it to yourself to dig in there, or check with your local library.

Ditto for Cistercian Press.

You were indeed fortunate to have had a well formed religious development in the home and out.

When I see the Mormons running around town on their bicycles,I think,why don’t we Catholics do the same?
There are a few communities of sisters who do home visits,
but not enough.Would be good experience for seminarians.

This is an excellent point, and I have tried to encourage just such line of a thinking and action in my own circle of believers.

Michael

 

[Ronald_E]

You are very welcome, Lapell. Thank you for your blessing. When I returned to Catholicism 3 years ago my wife had already returned 10 years earlier. Our daughter who was influenced by my lack of faith and had experiences in a non-denominational church that influenced her to reject Christianity informed my wife and I on Ash Wednesday of 07 that she was entering the Catholic Faith. We had been praying for her together since my return but never talked to her about her converting. She lives 3000 miles away and is 28.
She is now Catholic. When I asked her why, she said that Catholicism had a depth and intelligence that she had not seen anywhere. Grace hit her also. The change in her was beautiful. Prior to her conversion she had a hardness and underlying hostility and anxiety like her father (me).
Now she has this beautiful disposition of openness and strength which brings out the beautiful creation of God present in her loving demeanor. Miraculous!

 

[HashemEchad]

Agreed(Although the OP is Jewish) There are nearly a Billion Catholics in the world. The fact one can find some who dont understand all the doctrines should be of no suprise to anyone.

Years ago I was on a 20 hour (each way) ride to the Promise Keepers Rally in DC. I sat next to a guy who was had just completed a 22 part course in evangelizing Catholics. He asked me what the Immaculate Conception was-I carefully explained the Doctrine to him an He huffed and said “most catholics dont know that” I said"all the ones I know do" That was the end of the conversation.

With all due respect to the OP he is just another of a long line of non-catholics who come to CAF just to proclaim they know more about our Faith than we do. It gets a bit tiresome after a while.

Well, in my defense I think I’m a bit different from the “long line of non-Catholics” whom you say have paraded through these parts.

I’ve spent my entire life studying other religions, and I have a degree in comparative religion as well.

I’ve spent extra time studying traditional Catholicism, partly because this religion is closer to me than any other nonJewish religions. This is because half my family is Catholic, and I even had an aunt who was a cloistered Carmelite nun (hey, how many other religious Jews can say that? )

I’ve studied the Baltimore Catechism (all volumes, the traditional ones, not the revised ones); Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the old Canon Law (not the 1983 one, the 1917 one), works of (pre-Vatican 2) moral theology, and many, many others. I’ve read the works of Augustine, St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and many more. I’ve attended a number of Tridentine Latin high Masses over the years as part of my study/hobby, and because I had a few years of Latin, could actually do the entire Tridentine Mass if I wanted to (complete with the chant), but since I’m neither male nor Catholic, I’m sure it would be frowned upon.

And hey, how many other non-Catholics can sing O Salutaris Hostia and Tantum Ergo from memory? (from the old benediction service)

I’m 48 and have been studying other religions as a hobby since my teen years. In all that time, I also found the time to study my own religion (!)

I’m not your average, garden variety non-Catholic who just wants to tell you how much more she knows than you… trust me on that one.

 

[pismopal]

If Catholics sometimes not know enough about their faith( or others) I can only add that non Catholics know a lot less. Bigotry against Catholics is based on ignorance about Catholic Christianity and repeated endlessly by some who simply don’t want to know the truth.

 

[YADA]

Why isn’t everyone the valedictorian of their classes?

Why isn’t everyone a nuclear scientist?

My mother used to remind me:

“When you go into the doctor’s office and read his/her diploma hanging on the wall … Remember for every doctor who graduated in the TOP 10% of their class there is a doctor who graduated in the BOTTOM 10% … The diploma does not tell you where fall”

For some of us, the study of our faith and the religions around us is very important, for others [sadly] this may not be the case …

For the most part, the catholic christians I know are all very knowledgable … but then I rarely hang out with the CEO [Christmas, Easter and Obituary ] crowd, though I pray for them and welcome them when they come by for these family reunions and hope they will decide to come by each week …

 

[JRKH]

Well, in my defense I think I’m a bit different from the “long line of non-Catholics” whom you say have paraded through these parts.

I’ve spent my entire life studying other religions, and I have a degree in comparative religion as well.

I’ve spent extra time studying traditional Catholicism, partly because this religion is closer to me than any other nonJewish religions. This is because half my family is Catholic, and I even had an aunt who was a cloistered Carmelite nun (hey, how many other religious Jews can say that? )

I’ve studied the Baltimore Catechism (all volumes, the traditional ones, not the revised ones); Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the old Canon Law (not the 1983 one, the 1917 one), works of (pre-Vatican 2) moral theology, and many, many others. I’ve read the works of Augustine, St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and many more. I’ve attended a number of Tridentine Latin high Masses over the years as part of my study/hobby, and because I had a few years of Latin, could actually do the entire Tridentine Mass if I wanted to (complete with the chant), but since I’m neither male nor Catholic, I’m sure it would be frowned upon.

And hey, how many other non-Catholics can sing O Salutaris Hostia and Tantum Ergo from memory? (from the old benediction service)

I’m 48 and have been studying other religions as a hobby since my teen years. In all that time, I also found the time to study my own religion (!)

I’m not your average, garden variety non-Catholic who just wants to tell you how much more she knows than you… trust me on that one.

Hashem,
Your credentials appear impressive. I hope you will stay around and answer other questions. It would be most interesting to have someone with a dispassionate perspective in some of these mine vs your religion discusions.

Peace
James

 

[bnapgh]

I am an early boomer.

The original question asked can be asked of all subject matter in schools:

Why do so few master their curricula?

Answer: Most human population differences track a normal curve.

Were those in the 1950s better trained?

IMO yes, in religious and non-religious subject matter.

Why?

Lots of reasons:

Good intentions include trying to teach children to reason and not to memorize.

Result: without some memorization there is little grist for the reason to mill. The most drastic example of this is grade-school arithmetic. In the 1950s math had both ‘‘problems’’ (figuring out word problems) and ‘‘computation’’ (calculations).

The latter required memorization of the times-tables to 12 x 12.

With the advent of calculators in the 1970s the focus moved to purely on problems (reasoning), and few memorized their times-tables. Result, today most MBAs and PhDs in Math cannot multiply 9 x 12 in their heads. Result: students were lost in algebra and therefore daunted by calculus and therefore turned-off to science and math. Result: U.S. ranks 24th (or some such in Math & Science).

Same in Religion. No memorization means no foundation for analysis.

The Protestant Reformation split off those who emphasized only Faith (e.g. Calvinists/Presbyterians) and those who emphasized only ‘‘reason’’ (e.g. Unitarians, I think). The Catholics do both. The Scriptures only Evangelicals were all do-it-yourself, while Catholics stressed a ‘‘well-formed conscience’’ (i.e. follow the rules).

Catholic focus on ‘‘getting to heaven’’ on occassion led to Church clerics treatng all in their ‘‘fold’’ like ‘‘children’’ (or sheep?) at times (thinking can lead to wrong conclusions). The Bible was translated into English but reading it was not encouraged—if not discouraged. The Mass was in Latin—to be uniform worldwide.

V-II encouraged pastors to treat laity more like adults. Clarified the rules. Many naive were more comfortable being sheep than shepherds. Religion was personal, not social (albeit good works were always encouraged — see Acts). Many fell away.

My guess is that statistically the American Catholic ‘‘population’’ was and is, on the whole, as well or better grounded than American Protestants or American Jews. But ‘‘most’’ are poorly grounded.

The way I figure it, the modal emotional age of the whole human race is about 15 or 16 years of age!

Never say never!

,

 

[HashemEchad]

Hashem,
Your credentials appear impressive. I hope you will stay around and answer other questions. It would be most interesting to have someone with a dispassionate perspective in some of these mine vs your religion discusions.

Peace
James

I would find it amusing that I, as a Jew, could perhaps answer just about any question someone might have about the traditional Roman Catholic faith, as well as any questions about traditional Judaism, as I have been a student of both.

I do have to forewarn you though, that the only Catholic church I am well-versed in is the pre-Vatican 2 Catholic church, since that is the only one I have studied in greath depth (long story as to why that is.) Suffice it to say I know very little if anything about the church since V2 except that it is very different.

 

[hasikelee]

OP, have you worked with non-American Catholics? Do you find them to be equally uncatechized? Are you sure it isn’t just a current American culture that is also affecting these Catholics?

What you describe is basically what I find in 99.9% of all the people I meet, whether they are Catholic or not. They are just plain dumb.

Sorry if that sounds mean. Not trying to be at all. They just are. I’ve had teen girls reference abortion as having something to do with teeth. There’s a thread on this forum right now about teens who believe drinking bleach will protect you from HIV. I counsel people all day long about why they can’t use plastic pipe for their gas lines.

Humanity as a whole is dipping towards the “permanently retarded” level of intelligence.

le sigh.

Hey, I wanted to add that it might have to do with being put on the spot as well. I consider myself informed in matters of faith and morals, but if someone walked up to me and asked me a question, I would most likely bomb it. I am not good when put on the spot. If a person randomly stopped me on the street and asked me to recite the 10 commandments, I would probably stare at him with a blank look.

 

[HashemEchad]

OP, have you worked with non-American Catholics? Do you find them to be equally uncatechized? Are you sure it isn’t just a current American culture that is also affecting these Catholics?

What you describe is basically what I find in 99.9% of all the people I meet, whether they are Catholic or not. They are just plain dumb.

You know something? Now that you mention it, I think you’re right!

I do know I have found that non-American JEWS are much better educated about Judaism on average, and are also more likely to be religious (notably, Orthodox.) So maybe the same is true of Catholics (I have not had any dealings with non-American Catholics, but what you say is probably true.)

 

[JRKH]

I would find it amusing that I, as a Jew, could perhaps answer just about any question someone might have about the traditional Roman Catholic faith, as well as any questions about traditional Judaism, as I have been a student of both.

I do have to forewarn you though, that the only Catholic church I am well-versed in is the pre-Vatican 2 Catholic church, since that is the only one I have studied in greath depth (long story as to why that is.) Suffice it to say I know very little if anything about the church since V2 except that it is very different.

Actually I was speaking primarily in terms of questions and answers on non-catholic topics, and particularly Orthodox Jewish items.
However, it would also be interesting to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as far as the Catholic Church goes. You mention that you know more about the Pre-Vatican II Church, and very little about the Post VatII. In so far as teachings go, I think that very little has changed. Of course there have been large changes in how those teachings are implemented, and also changes in form of worship, but these are more issues of style and presentation than in basic doctrinal issues. so I think that your (name removed by moderator)ut would still be most valuable.
As far as learning these things from an Orthodox Jew instead of a Catholic, well I don’t mind at all. History remains the same, and intellectual integrety is always welcome.

Peace - Shalom
James

 

[hasikelee]

You know something? Now that you mention it, I think you’re right!

I do know I have found that non-American JEWS are much better educated about Judaism on average, and are also more likely to be religious (notably, Orthodox.) So maybe the same is true of Catholics (I have not had any dealings with non-American Catholics, but what you say is probably true.)

Hmm, I didn’t eve think to apply it to Jews. I think I agree with myself! The American Jews I know are very “modern” most of them accepting abortion and not even practicing their faith.

It’s just the melting pot country.

 

[Valke2]

Well, in my defense I think I’m a bit different from the “long line of non-Catholics” whom you say have paraded through these parts.

I’ve spent my entire life studying other religions, and I have a degree in comparative religion as well.

I’ve spent extra time studying traditional Catholicism, partly because this religion is closer to me than any other nonJewish religions. This is because half my family is Catholic, and I even had an aunt who was a cloistered Carmelite nun (hey, how many other religious Jews can say that? )

I’ve studied the Baltimore Catechism (all volumes, the traditional ones, not the revised ones); Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, the old Canon Law (not the 1983 one, the 1917 one), works of (pre-Vatican 2) moral theology, and many, many others. I’ve read the works of Augustine, St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and many more. I’ve attended a number of Tridentine Latin high Masses over the years as part of my study/hobby, and because I had a few years of Latin, could actually do the entire Tridentine Mass if I wanted to (complete with the chant), but since I’m neither male nor Catholic, I’m sure it would be frowned upon.

And hey, how many other non-Catholics can sing O Salutaris Hostia and Tantum Ergo from memory? (from the old benediction service)

I’m 48 and have been studying other religions as a hobby since my teen years. In all that time, I also found the time to study my own religion (!)

I’m not your average, garden variety non-Catholic who just wants to tell you how much more she knows than you… trust me on that one.

Is that Irony or sarcasm?

 

[HashemEchad]

Hmm, I didn’t eve think to apply it to Jews. I think I agree with myself! The American Jews I know are very “modern” most of them accepting abortion and not even practicing their faith.

It’s just the melting pot country.

Most Orthodox Jews are against abortion except to save the life of the mother (which almost never happens.) Its sad that the other Jews give people the wrong impression.

You might find this website of interest:

jewsforlife.org

 

[rinnie]

I think the easiest way to answer your question is because the Catholic Faith is very very hard to live by and there is so much to learn. And to be honest with you it takes a life time to really understand everything in the Catholic Faith and you must study pretty much every day. It is not a faith that you can do whatever you choose you must learn what is the right way. Its the way of the church. And that cant be accomplished in a few years. I am the same age as you and have been Catholic my whole life, and im still learning. I went to a Catholic school, havent missed Church on Sunday unless i was really sick in my life. Maybe 5 times in my life that i really could have went for another reason, and im still learning. I think if you asked a Bishop, Priest or the Pope himself he will tell you they themselves are still learning. Its not a religion its a way of life. And like other things in life somedays you take time to pray and read the bible and some you dont. Some days you do well others you mess up. I think people think that if you are Catholic your not supposed to be human. And you must remember the Pope himself reveals things to us when God wants us to know them. He is the person who is still teaching us. And God is still teaching him. Hope this helps, i tried to be as honest as i could and talk from the heart.