Why are Catholics often this way?

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Actually, it did, for many conversos, turn into a kind of hybrid thing. We discuss this a lot on the Anusim forum I belong to (anusim is the Hebrew word for Jews forced to become Catholic…it means ‘those who were forced’).

I remember my Italian (originally Spanish) “Catholic” grandmother, telling me that pork was ‘dirty’ and that we should not eat it. She also would light two candles on Friday evenings before dinner, saying “its an old family tradition”.

I grew up very confused, because my mother had converted to Judaism during WW2, a few years before she met/married my (born) Jewish father. When I saw my Catholic grandmother carrying out rituals I knew were Jewish, I just figured Jews and Italians were the same people (!) It wasn’t until many years later that I found out why my grandmother was like that.

I have a cousin who actually traveled to Spain, Italy and Venezuela (where our ancestors were/are) and who did much of the genealogical research. He was shocked to find out he was actually of Jewish ancestry…so much so he went to his priest and asked, “What am I then, Jewish or Catholic?” His priest told him that he is whatever he feels God leading him to be, which I thought was a pretty amazing thing for a priest to say!

One thing Joe (my cousin) found out too, was the name of one of our ancestors who was on the list of Jews expelled from Spain in 1492. It gave me the chills to see my grandmother’s maiden name on that list!

There are many customs that conversos retained, but over the course of 500 years, while they still practiced the customs, they often lost all memory of WHY they did them (such as, in my grandmother’s case, the candle lighting on Friday nights, the abstention from pork, and the fear of crucifixes.)

You see, conversos often retained a dread of crucifixes, becasue the Inquisitors would go in procession (with a crucifix leading the way) to the home of a suspected marrano, to arrest them and bring them up on charges of “judaizing”. So the crucifix came to be associated in their minds with death and evil. My grandmother used to say to me, “If you see a crucifix, its bad luck, it means someone is going to die”.

Yet she was externally a Catholic, buried a Catholic and all. So for people with our ancestry, Jewish and Catholic customs often became mixed, and for many of them, it felt normal.

This is, perhaps, why I had no problem at all, when my mother died, in calling both a rabbi and a priest, each giving her the final rites of their respective faiths. On some level, I felt that was what she would have wanted, as crazy as it might sound to outsiders. It felt normal because of my family history, I suppose!

For more info on anusim, see: anusimcenter.org/index.html
That is interesting on so many levels. I could only take a quick look at the anusimcenter’s website, but what little I saw I liked. It sems to have the intent of opening up this chapter to help educate and heal.
I feel a bit of a remote kinship in this - very remote - because my family is of German origin and emigrated in the mid 1800’s to the US. This means that my ancesters were in Germany at the time of the reformation. Much violence and bloodshed, yet they were able to resist and remain loyal to Christ’s true Church.
So much has happened in history and too much evil has been laid at God’s hand instead of man’s where it belongs.
Thanks for the link. I still think you could write a heck of a book on the subject.

Peace
James
 
I don’t mind; if anything it further drives me from even the remotest consideration of joining the Catholic church.

Ah, the Jewish God works in mysterious ways! 😉
No disrespect but what you say doesnt make any sense to me. You are holding a grudge that is years old all because kids were mean. I dont care what religion you are kids pick on kids. Its sad but true. Brothers pick on sisters its part of growing up. But just because kids do something has nothing to do with the Church. The only thing that can drive anyone TO the RCC is LOVE for JESUS CHRIST. IF you have it no one can keep you away. You can say anything you want, but i am sure many many people got picked on by a Catholic, Jew, Protestant, etc and dont hold a grudge the persons Faith. That is just an excuse you are using, and a poor one the way I see it. No one is saying you should be one religion or another Jesus gave us all the right to choose. But to say i will never be Catholic or believe in the Church because i got beat up when i was little is unreal.
 
You have over 11,000 posts. Why do you act this way?
Act *what *way? He comes to a Catholic forum where there is a lot of ignorance of Judaism, not to mention most other faiths, a forum which has, to be blunt, an undeniably stubborn streak in it. He has a background in comparative religion, so he has a rather large body of knowledge from which to contribute.

If you’ve read very many of his posts, though, he gets the weirdest objections…like, “How can you know so much about Catholicism and not be Catholic?” You’d think faith was a purely intellectual enterprise. If we all think getting converts is so simple, why aren’t we out getting converts? John’s Gospel makes it clear that people will know we belong to Christ by how we love each other, not by how much we know about this or that. How do y’all think the evangelization effort is going around here? Do not fool yourselves on how somebody could come here and fail to instantly turn their lives over to Mother Church. We do not give her 100% good press. Knowledge is not the only foundation of faith.

At any rate, it would not take someone like that very long to rack up 10,000 posts. That is, in fact, kind of the point of this thread. I could see why his wife and boss might wonder why he spends so much time here, but as for us, the answer ought to be pretty clear.

OTOH, OP, do realize that this is where we come to learn. If we knew it all, we would have other things to do. 😉
No disrespect but what you say doesnt make any sense to me. You are holding a grudge that is years old all because kids were mean. I dont care what religion you are kids pick on kids. Its sad but true. Brothers pick on sisters its part of growing up. But just because kids do something has nothing to do with the Church. The only thing that can drive anyone TO the RCC is LOVE for JESUS CHRIST. IF you have it no one can keep you away. You can say anything you want, but i am sure many many people got picked on by a Catholic, Jew, Protestant, etc and dont hold a grudge the persons Faith. That is just an excuse you are using, and a poor one the way I see it. No one is saying you should be one religion or another Jesus gave us all the right to choose. But to say i will never be Catholic or believe in the Church because i got beat up when i was little is unreal.
It doesn’t make sense to you that being beaten up for not being Catholic put a life-long barrier between him and conversion to our faith? I don’t think I follow you. Maybe you don’t know that Jews don’t have a big history for that kind of thing, except for being on the recieving end. It wasn’t just that he was beaten up. It’s that he was beaten up and found later that his was hardly an isolated incident, typical only of nasty little kids. We have had a bad history, friend.

Besides, he’s not necessarily holding a grudge or trying to find excuses. He was explaining why a Jew might want to learn a lot about other religions, how he might learn so much about our faith and yet have no intention of converting.

Answer: He learned so much because he learned the hard way the damage that ignorance can do. He doesn’t want to do the same damage for the same reason. Fair enough.

He’s not Catholic because although he has heard the Gospel, he doesn’t find it convincing. His objections seem to be more evidence-based than fact-based, if you know what I mean. I wouldn’t call that a grudge. I would call that “the proof is in the pudding, and I haven’t liked what I’ve had a taste of.” I fail to see how it can be argued that this violates common sense.

What shouldn’t be given the excuse is the kids who beat him up. The past can’t be changed, but regardless of how culpable the kids were (we can’t know what their background was) those were evil acts, done in the name of the Catholic Church, and they should not be minimized. That a Catholic kid would beat up a Jewish kid for not being Catholic is a reflection on our Church. Ignorance of our faith and failure to live it keeps many a person out of the Catholic Church. We shouldn’t let ourselves off easily on that account.
 
Easter Joy, I was asking estesbob the question. It was a rhetorical question. He had been making rude comments which only satisfy his anger’s desire for the pleasure of attacking someone through the anonymity of the internet.
 
Easter Joy, I was asking estesbob the question. It was a rhetorical question. He had been making rude comments which only satisfy his anger’s desire for the pleasure of attacking someone through the anonymity of the internet.
 
Kids beating up Kids is not done in the name of the Catholic Church. Thats unreal. That is not what the Church teaches. You are so off base here. Again this statement does not make sense. To blame a Religion because of something kids do. If someone in a red Ford Bronco runs over my cat and kills it. then im going to blame the Ford Dealership. Because they were in a ford. come on. Or everyone that drives red ford broncos are evil come on.
 
Kids beating up Kids is not done in the name of the Catholic Church. Thats unreal. That is not what the Church teaches. You are so off base here. Again this statement does not make sense. To blame a Religion because of something kids do. If someone in a red Ford Bronco runs over my cat and kills it. then im going to blame the Ford Dealership. Because they were in a ford. come on. Or everyone that drives red ford broncos are evil come on.
If it happened. I was raised in the 50s , attended Cathoilc schools all the way through college (including 4 years in the seminary) and NEVER heard anyone say the Jews killed Christ. At first he/she told us their interest in comong here was becuase their mother had told her uthings about the Catholic Church she wanted to check out. -so one must question if they really are as knoweldgebale about the church(a degree in Comparative Religion?) as they say they are -why would they need to be asking questions about the things their Mother said? > Then 150 some posts later suddenly we learn they were attcked by Catholic Girls in their youth claiming she “killed Jesus” Give me a break.
 
I have met many knowledgeable Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others in my life, but one thing I have observed time and again: many Catholics not only are totally ignorant of the religions of others, but also of their own. WHY is this?

Catholics, in effect, are probably the greatest sinners because they have the Truth yet do not take advantage of it. But most people in the world don’t know their own religious affiliation either; it’s not relegated to just Catholic Christians.

To give one example, a woman I knew years ago in the pro-life movement insisted to me that the immaculate conception was the Catholic belief that when Mary conceived Jesus, she was a virgin.
I explained to her that that belief is called the virgin birth. I told her that the belief of the immaculate conception is the belief that when MARY was conceived in HER mother’s womb, she was free of original sin. I then explained that that is what the meaning is of the words on the miraculous medal seen in a vision by Catherine Laboure.She insisted she was right and I was wrong. I finally told her to ask her priest. She called a few days later to apologize, that I was right.

You should have asked here what A.D. meant. Chances are, she would have told you that it means “After Death”. Do you think I am kidding? The vast majority of kids in school are taught this, public as well as private. I consider it a breakdown of understanding the world and history and just plain mental laziness on the part of the teachers. I actually had a CCD teacher become snippy to me when I corrected her on the matter. Although I know she looked it up, at least you got an apology.

HOW can so many Catholics be so ignorant of not only the faiths of others, but esp. their own? I realize not everyone can be a religious scholar, but I thought the Catholic church had catechism classes, parochial schools, etc

I am a 48+ year veteran of Catholic education. Those nuns really taught us about the Faith. But since Vatican II, we have lost over two generations of proper catechesis due to all the nonsense abounding about that “spirit” of Vatican II. At least Pope John Paul II began the new reformation with the establishment of the catechism, which ALL texts and teaching are required to use.

My own mother was a convert to Orthodox Judaism from Catholicism, and she had attended Catholic school as a child as well. Yet she misled me for many years, telling me that Catholics do not believe Jesus is god, but SON of God. I didn’t learn what Catholics actually believed on that until I was a teenager, and began studying all religions (I went on to get a degree in comparative religion as well.)

Can anyone explain this to me?
**I don’t think your mother was paying too close attention, to be honest with you. But God bless her anyway. 🙂 **
 
If it happened. I was raised in the 50s , attended Cathoilc schools all the way through college (including 4 years in the seminary) and NEVER heard anyone say the Jews killed Christ. At first he/she told us their interest in comong here was becuase their mother had told her uthings about the Catholic Church she wanted to check out. -so one must question if they really are as knoweldgebale about the church(a degree in Comparative Religion?) as they say they are -why would they need to be asking questions about the things their Mother said? > Then 150 some posts later suddenly we learn they were attcked by Catholic Girls in their youth claiming she “killed Jesus” Give me a break.
**I agree with you, as I was raised in the same time period. I never heard anyone say the Jews were Christ killers. But when I did, it came from mostly southern protestants, not the Catholic Church or Catholics themselves.

Even in the Apostles Creed, it is pointed out that Christ’s suffering was under Pontius Pilate, NOT the Jews.**
 
Catholic Girls in their youth claiming she “killed Jesus” Give me a break.
Different continent but I heard that sort of thing - different place, different time and, very likely, different attitudes on our part (a rejoinder of "Nazi **** " in Europe worked rather well) but that sort of thing, nevertheless.
 
I agree with you, as I was raised in the same time period. I never heard anyone say the Jews were Christ killers. But when I did, it came from mostly southern protestants, not the Catholic Church or Catholics themselves.

Even in the Apostles Creed, it is pointed out that Christ’s suffering was under Pontius Pilate, NOT the Jews.
I was raised in the mid-west but went to school with people from all over the world. No on, I mean NO one in the Church was claiming the Jews killed Chirst is the OP lifetime.
 
**I don’t think your mother was paying too close attention, to be honest with you. But God bless her anyway. 🙂 **
Maybe she was just intending to have her husband not blame the Catholic Church as a whole? Like trying to have him make peace? To bring peace some people sometimes use strange ways…
 
If it happened. I was raised in the 50s , attended Cathoilc schools all the way through college (including 4 years in the seminary) and NEVER heard anyone say the Jews killed Christ. At first he/she told us their interest in comong here was becuase their mother had told her uthings about the Catholic Church she wanted to check out. -so one must question if they really are as knoweldgebale about the church(a degree in Comparative Religion?) as they say they are -why would they need to be asking questions about the things their Mother said? > Then 150 some posts later suddenly we learn they were attcked by Catholic Girls in their youth claiming she “killed Jesus” Give me a break.
Exactly, if they want to debate the Church Teachings thats one thing. But to say the Catholic Church teaches this, thats is nothing but a lie. A lie. The Catholic Church cant be responsible for every thing a person does. And especially kids. Kids make mistakes and yes should be corrected. But you dont blame their Religion for the wrong they do. And i have been Catholic all of my life and we were never taught to attack Jewish People. We we to attack NO ONE. So like i said this story isnt flying with me. And dont blame the church for anyone personal actions and say its the teaching. Oh Well consider the source I guess.
 
Exactly, if they want to debate the Church Teachings thats one thing. But to say the Catholic Church teaches this, thats is nothing but a lie. A lie.
Excuse me, but… did HashemEchad or Kaninchen say such a thing in their posts? Better check that out, hmm?
 
Excuse me, but… did HashemEchad or Kaninchen say such a thing in their posts? Better check that out, hmm?
Lapell i was responding to post 160. It said that it was done in the name of the Church. what was done to them is not in the Name of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not teach that. That is what i was responding to. Read the last paragraph in post 160.
 
So far on this thread -

Me - 60
Ignorant - 40
Blame -38
Good - 7
Charity -2
Forgive -0
Forgiveness -0
God Bless You -0

I’m sorry… I’m not going to join the blame game…just keeping score…:whistle:

Peace
:rotfl: :amen:
 
No disrespect but what you say doesnt make any sense to me. You are holding a grudge that is years old all because kids were mean. I dont care what religion you are kids pick on kids. Its sad but true. Brothers pick on sisters its part of growing up. But just because kids do something has nothing to do with the Church. The only thing that can drive anyone TO the RCC is LOVE for JESUS CHRIST. IF you have it no one can keep you away. You can say anything you want, but i am sure many many people got picked on by a Catholic, Jew, Protestant, etc and dont hold a grudge the persons Faith. That is just an excuse you are using, and a poor one the way I see it. No one is saying you should be one religion or another Jesus gave us all the right to choose. But to say i will never be Catholic or believe in the Church because i got beat up when i was little is unreal.
The reason I will never become a Catholic (or any nonJewish religion) is really not because of what those girls did to me (though I will say, they were my very first introduction to the Catholic charge of deicide against the Jews.)

The reason I will never join another religion is the same reason why you will most likely never stop being Catholic: because you believe in YOUR OWN faith, and have no need to find another.
 
Act *what *way? He comes to a Catholic forum where there is a lot of ignorance of Judaism, not to mention most other faiths, a forum which has, to be blunt, an undeniably stubborn streak in it. He has a background in comparative religion, so he has a rather large body of knowledge from which to contribute.

If you’ve read very many of his posts, though, he gets the weirdest objections…like, “How can you know so much about Catholicism and not be Catholic?” You’d think faith was a purely intellectual enterprise. If we all think getting converts is so simple, why aren’t we out getting converts? John’s Gospel makes it clear that people will know we belong to Christ by how we love each other, not by how much we know about this or that. How do y’all think the evangelization effort is going around here? Do not fool yourselves on how somebody could come here and fail to instantly turn their lives over to Mother Church. We do not give her 100% good press. Knowledge is not the only foundation of faith.

At any rate, it would not take someone like that very long to rack up 10,000 posts. That is, in fact, kind of the point of this thread. I could see why his wife and boss might wonder why he spends so much time here, but as for us, the answer ought to be pretty clear.

OTOH, OP, do realize that this is where we come to learn. If we knew it all, we would have other things to do. 😉

It doesn’t make sense to you that being beaten up for not being Catholic put a life-long barrier between him and conversion to our faith? I don’t think I follow you. Maybe you don’t know that Jews don’t have a big history for that kind of thing, except for being on the recieving end. It wasn’t just that he was beaten up. It’s that he was beaten up and found later that his was hardly an isolated incident, typical only of nasty little kids. We have had a bad history, friend.

Besides, he’s not necessarily holding a grudge or trying to find excuses. He was explaining why a Jew might want to learn a lot about other religions, how he might learn so much about our faith and yet have no intention of converting.

Answer: He learned so much because he learned the hard way the damage that ignorance can do. He doesn’t want to do the same damage for the same reason. Fair enough.

He’s not Catholic because although he has heard the Gospel, he doesn’t find it convincing. His objections seem to be more evidence-based than fact-based, if you know what I mean. I wouldn’t call that a grudge. I would call that “the proof is in the pudding, and I haven’t liked what I’ve had a taste of.” I fail to see how it can be argued that this violates common sense.

What shouldn’t be given the excuse is the kids who beat him up. The past can’t be changed, but regardless of how culpable the kids were (we can’t know what their background was) those were evil acts, done in the name of the Catholic Church, and they should not be minimized. That a Catholic kid would beat up a Jewish kid for not being Catholic is a reflection on our Church. Ignorance of our faith and failure to live it keeps many a person out of the Catholic Church. We shouldn’t let ourselves off easily on that account.
THANK YOU for being one of the few here who truly understands what I was trying to say!

(BTW I’m a she. 🙂
 
If it happened. I was raised in the 50s , attended Cathoilc schools all the way through college (including 4 years in the seminary) and NEVER heard anyone say the Jews killed Christ. At first he/she told us their interest in comong here was becuase their mother had told her uthings about the Catholic Church she wanted to check out. -so one must question if they really are as knoweldgebale about the church(a degree in Comparative Religion?) as they say they are -why would they need to be asking questions about the things their Mother said? > Then 150 some posts later suddenly we learn they were attcked by Catholic Girls in their youth claiming she “killed Jesus” Give me a break.
I know MANY Jews from my generation (1950s-1960s) who were called “christ killers”. I’m not the only one, and I do not lie. The actor Kirk Douglas also was physically beaten by Catholic kids for being a “christ killer”. We can’t ALL be lying. And many of the Catholics of that generation have short memories when it comes to this issue, it seems. You’re not the first I’m met who tried denying it.

I first found this forum because I was curious about some Holy Week LEGENDS my late mother had told me about. I’d never heard them before, and was curious as to the origin of them. You can have a degree in comp religion and not know EVERYTHING (esp. things like that), believe it or not.
 
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