Why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?

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majick275:
No it shows a scheming con man with the help of an educated partner (oliver), an easily duped fool with money (martin harris) and the help of his wife plagiarized a ton and then still ended up with poorly written novel that a professional preacher (rigdon) had to edit.
There have been people who have slandered and maligned and spoken evil of the holy prophets of God since the beginning of time. Ham mocked his father Noah for his nakedness and drunkenness, for which he was cursed for all generations of time (Genesis 9:20-27). Dathan and Abiram and their company rebelled against Moses and Aaron, and mocked and charged them with evil, and were likewise cursed, and descended into untimely graves (Numbers 16:1-35). Peter and Jude have had some apt comments to make about such kinds of people:

2 Peter 2:

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Jude 1:

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.Very to the point indeed. In modern scripture too the Lord is uncompromising in His condemnation of such folks:

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid
 
(Continued from the previous post…)

D&C 121:

11 And they who do charge thee with transgression, their hope shall be blasted, and their prospects shall melt away as the hoar frost melteth before the burning rays of the rising sun;

12 And also that God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons, and to blind their minds, that they may not understand his marvelous workings; that he may prove them also and take them in their own craftiness;

13 Also because their hearts are corrupted, and the things which they are willing to bring upon others, and love to have others suffer, may come upon themselves to the very uttermost;

14 That they may be disappointed also, and their hopes may be cut off;

15 And not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, saith God, that not one of them is left to stand by the wall.

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death–

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.Past leaders and presidents of the Church too have found apt expressions for this of kinds people. The following quote is from Harold B. Lee, who is in turn quoting form George A. Smith:

A few years ago, we had a woman who had written some scurrilous things about the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Mention was made of it here in the conference at that time.) Shortly thereafter, I met someone on the street and they asked me if there had been a revelation or an utterance at the recently concluded general conference that might be considered as a prophecy. And I said, “Did you hear the closing remarks of President George Albert Smith as he closed the conference? If you did, you heard a prophet speaking, and let me tell you what he said.” I happened to have a clipping in my wallet. This is what President George Albert Smith said:

"Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die."No truer words were ever spoken, and that person fell just as all others will fall who try to tear down the work of the Lord. (Harold B. Lee, “Closing Remarks,” Ensign, Jan. 1974, 125.)​
Very apt comments indeed, addressed to people of your elk.

amgid
 
Brad Haas:
You’re mistaken, amgid. If you read the first few chapters of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you’ll see that the Church claims to be led by revelation. The difference is that the LDS church claims to be led by continued revelation given through men, while the Catholic Church claims to be led by the final and perfect revelation of God, Jesus Christ. The Catechism quotes St. John of the Cross on this matter (paragraph 65):
That is playing with words. It sounds like self-deception to me.
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say … because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
This is even worse. It is pure hypocrisy and perverse wickedness. If what he says is true, then all the Apostles and prophets that followed after Jesus were all “guilty of foolish behavior” and of “offending him”; because they received revelation and directed the Church by revelation. If what he is saying is true, then he is certainly adding a new “novelty” to the Bible, because there is nothing in the Bible itself that tells us that (continuing) revelation in the church of God should come to an end. John the revelator teaches that in the last days God will raise two prophets among the Jews who will prophesy of many things, and also suffer martyrdom (Revelation 11:1-11).

In modern LDS scripture too the Lord had some interesting things to say on the subject:

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid
 
(Continued from the previous post…)

Moroni 9:

7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;

8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.

9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.

16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

17 Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?

18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

22 For behold, thus said Jesus Christ, the Son of God, unto his disciples who should tarry, yea, and also to all his disciples, in the hearing of the multitude: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature;

23 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned;

24 And these signs shall follow them that believe–in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

25 And whosoever shall believe in my name, doubting nothing, unto him will I confirm all my words, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 And now, behold, who can stand against the works of the Lord? Who can deny his sayings? Who will rise up against the almighty power of the Lord? Who will despise the works of the Lord? Who will despise the children of Christ? Behold, all ye who are despisers of the works of the Lord, for ye shall wonder and perish.

27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.(Continued in the next post…)

amgid
 
(Continued from the previous post…)

Moroni 7:

25 Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

26 And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. And as surely as Christ liveth he spake these words unto our fathers, saying: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is good, in faith believing that ye shall receive, behold, it shall be done unto you.

27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?

28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

31 And the office of their ministry is to call men unto repentance, and to fulfil and to do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he hath made unto the children of men, to prepare the way among the children of men, by declaring the word of Christ unto the chosen vessels of the Lord, that they may bear testimony of him.

32 And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me.

34 And he hath said: Repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, and have faith in me, that ye may be saved.

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.The bottom line is that the true church of God must be led by revelation from God, or else it is not the church of God.

amgid
 
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Phaedrus:
Now, if you look at the claims of the LDS Church, …
Phaedrus,

Thank you for your sincere and interesting post. I have a simple question to ask you. What do I do if I know that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS Church is true?

amgid
 
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amgid:
Phaedrus,

Thank you for your sincere and interesting post. I have a simple question to ask you. What do I do if I know that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS Church is true?

amgid
Amgid,
If I may interject here, there’s something I’d like to add. Being ex-LDS I know exactly what you mean when you say you “know that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS Church is true”. What you mean is that you feel so strongly about your beliefs, that it feels like you have a certain knowledge regarding those beliefs. In fact, the feeling is SO strong you are absolutely certain about it those beliefs. I understand how you received this knowledge and I understand how strong the feelings are. BUT, there is a fundamental difference between knowledge derived through thought, experience and study, and knowledge derived from emotional experiences.

I understand that the LDS Church teaches that if you are faithful, humble and prayerful, God will give you a certain knowledge regarding the truthfulness of the faith. But, if this is truly the case, then WHY are there so many other people, of different faiths than yours, who feel as strongly as you do? If you can discern truth in this way then there would simply not be as many religions as there are. People want the truth, they crave the truth, they would die for the truth.

If you are truly honest with yourself you will seek the truth in this regard. Go speak to some FLDS and ask them if they have a testimony. Let me assure you they have a stronger testimony than most active LDS. Are they right? Does the strength of their “knowledge”, their testimony, have anything to do with what is true and what isn’t? No, it does not. That begs the question then. If it doesn’t in their case, why does it in yours?
 
Please remember that if you are quoting another text, that you do so in an ‘abridged’ manner.

In other words, please do not post an entire passage, article, or story. You should create your comment or your debate point in your own words FIRST, then use various references to back the point up.

Several posters (not just on this thread) have taken the route of flooding their post with quotes from various texts.

We believe that this practice would be more condusive to quality dialogue.

Please feel free to quote certain passages from texts that support your arguments… But make sure it’s just a paragraph or two. Generally speaking, most points can be refuted or supported on just a few sentences.

The thread will now be reopened for dialogue. Thanks for your participation!

Here is a link for LDS online texts for our fellow LDS who wish to provide easy access to quotes for their non-LDS brethren.

scriptures.lds.org/contents
 
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Tmaque:
If I may interject here, there’s something I’d like to add. Being ex-LDS I know exactly what you mean when you say you “know that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the LDS Church is true”. What you mean is that you feel so strongly about your beliefs, that it feels like you have a certain knowledge regarding those beliefs. In fact, the feeling is SO strong you are absolutely certain about it those beliefs. I understand how you received this knowledge and I understand how strong the feelings are. BUT, there is a fundamental difference between knowledge derived through thought, experience and study, and knowledge derived from emotional experiences.
I don’t think that you do understand what I mean. When I say I “know,” I really mean that I “know”. I don’t mean that I have just a “strong feeling” that it is so. How do you know that there is a country called China (especially if you have never been there)? How do you know that somebody by the name of Abraham Lincoln ever existed? How do you know that men have been to the moon and come back? How do you know that what you heard in the news about an earthquake in Pakistan is true? Well, I know that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a prophet, and the Church is true, as surely, if not more so, as you know that these things are true. If I were to doubt that, I might as well doubt everything that I know. I wouldn’t be able to do anything, because I would never be sure of anything.
I understand that the LDS Church teaches that if you are faithful, humble and prayerful {and prayerfully study the Book of Mormon, and ask God to reveal the truth of it to you}, God will give you a certain knowledge regarding the truthfulness of the faith.
That is correct.
But, if this is truly the case, then WHY are there so many other people, of different faiths than yours, who feel as strongly as you do? If you can discern truth in this way then there would simply not be as many religions as there are. People want the truth, they crave the truth, they would die for the truth.
That is not a question that concerns me, neither should it. I am not in other peoples’ hearts and minds, and I don’t know what makes them think as they do. I can only speak with confidence about the workings and operations of my own mind, not about other peoples’. For all I know they could be lying; for all I know they could be deluded; for all I know they could be mad! What do I know (or care) about what is going on in other peoples’ minds? I can only speak with confidence about what is going on in my own mind; and that is the only thing that, as far as this discussion is concerned, I am interested in. If I couldn’t have confidence in my own convictions and assurances, how could I be sure of anything? I wouldn’t be able to have confidence in, or be sure of anything at all. When I say that I “know,” I really mean that “I know”.
If you are truly honest with yourself you will seek the truth in this regard.
What do I do if I have already sought, and have already found?
Go speak to some FLDS and ask them if they have a testimony. Let me assure you they have a stronger testimony than most active LDS. Are they right? Does the strength of their “knowledge”, their testimony, have anything to do with what is true and what isn’t? No, it does not. That begs the question then. If it doesn’t in their case, why does it in yours?
The answer is the same as I grave above. I don’t know, and I don’t care to know about what is going on in other peoples’ minds. I can only speak with confidence and certainty about what is going on in my own mind, and that is the only thing that I am interested in at the moment. All I can say is that I know with certainty that it is true; just as surely (if not more so) as I know that there is a country called China, and that they have just sent a couple of guys into space, and brought them back down safe!

amgid
 
amgid,

When I first read your post, it puzzled me. I didn’t see the connection between your question and my last message. Thanks to Tmaque’s post, I now understand what you were attempting to communicate.
So you are absolutely certain that the LDS is true? I have read of people who were absolutely certain that they were Jesus, or Moses, or a bird or cat. In Utah, I’ll bet there are even people who are absolutely certain that they are Joseph Smith. These people belong in asylums. For sane people, absolute certainty about beliefs does not make you virtuous, it makes you potentially dangerous.
Our Lord promised us many things, but certainty was not one of them. Else what is the use of faith?

Under the Mercy,
Phaedrus
 
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Phaedrus:
So you are absolutely certain that the LDS is true? I have read of people who were absolutely certain that they were Jesus, or Moses, or a bird or cat. In Utah, I’ll bet there are even people who are absolutely certain that they are Joseph Smith. These people belong in asylums. For sane people, absolute certainty about beliefs does not make you virtuous, it makes you potentially dangerous.

Our Lord promised us many things, but certainty was not one of them. Else what is the use of faith?
You are sadly mistaken. Peter didn’t seem to have any doubts in his mind that Jesus was his Lord:

Matthew 16:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.Certainty is of the very essence of true religion. That is what distinguishes religion from philosophy. What you are saying is that you are not really sure that Catholicism is true either! Well, you are welcome to it. But I am sure!

amgid
 
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amgid:
I don’t think that you do understand what I mean. When I say I “know,” I really mean that I “know”. I don’t mean that I have just a “strong feeling” that it is so. How do you know that there is a country called China (especially if you have never been there)?
You do not know that China exists, you only believe it because you believe the witnesses who tell you so and the evidence you’ve seen.

I, on the other hand have been to China, and therefore I know that it exists.
Well, I know that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a prophet, and the Church is true, as surely, if not more so, as you know that these things are true. If I were to doubt that, I might as well doubt everything that I know. I wouldn’t be able to do anything, because I would never be sure of anything.
Like all Mormons, you have muddied the distinction between belief and knowledge. You certainly do not know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. You have merely chosen to believe those who tell you so. Your insistence that your belief is somehow special knowledge is gnostic and cultish.
 
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amgid:
You are sadly mistaken. Peter didn’t seem to have any doubts in his mind that Jesus was his Lord:

Matthew 16:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.Certainty is of the very essence of true religion. That is what distinguishes religion from philosophy. What you are saying is that you are not really sure that Catholicism is true either! Well, you are welcome to it. But I am sure!

amgid
More sloppy Mormon thinking. Peter’s declaration was one of belief, not knowledge. Even when one receives revelation, he is still believing God who revealed it. It is not knowledge, it is faith. Faith to the point of certitude, perhaps, but still faith not knowledge.

Mormons need a philosophy 100 course. The differences between faith and knowledge were agreed upon millenia ago. One of the cultish aspects of Mormonism is how they keep redefining words to control the thought processes of their members. The word “know” is the prime example of this Orwellian practice.
 
Hmmm… Jesus tended to do the very thing you are accusing Mormons of. Read the Sermon on the mount he did quite a bit of redefining himself!

:rolleyes:
 
In answer to this question, I am finding that LDS are extremely interested in the Catholic faith, many are even converting, others investigating. LDS have always been interested in Catholicism because the reason for the LDS religion is denouncing Catholic religion. (The great apostasy.) As Catholics, it is about time we took notice of what is happening to undermine our faith. LDS send missionaries to predominantly Catholic countries in a huge effort to convert them to LDS. LDS try to baptize as many as possible as quickly as possible, whether or not the convert understands anything about what they are accepting.

An old gentleman, LDS, visits with me quite often. He started out as one of my husbands home teachers. He did everything he could to get my husband to go back to church and begged me to “take the lessons” so my hubby could “progress”. In the past few years this man has been studying religion, all religions. I gave him the Catholic Answers Bible to read several months ago. He brought it back and said he would love a copy of his own. Yesterday I presented him with a copy for his extensive library. He told me that he has been “searching” for several years and thanked me for helping him. He did ask me not to tell anyone that knows him about his growing dis-belief in LDS. I suggested that he attend RCIA for more information and that he would never be pressured into converting. My husband converted to Catholicism over a year ago. My old friend said “you live your faith”, not just “talk” it or push it. I think that was the nicest thing anyone could say.

So, Catholics must be interested in LDS in order to give them the true story of our faith, unraveling the untruths they have been taught from the cradle. As for converts, they don’t get the full beliefs until they have been baptised and then, very slowly fed the LDS Doctrine. Before they know it, the Doctrine changes and they have to learn all over again. For a huge number of LDS converts, it is in the front door and out the back door in a short time, never taking names off the LDS roles. We must live our religion to give the good example God expects of all of us.

Love and peace,

Mom of 5
 
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PaulDupre:
One of the cultish aspects of Mormonism is how they keep redefining words to control the thought processes of their members. The word “know” is the prime example of this Orwellian practice.
Paul, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. I am becoming increasingly convinced that “cult” may be the most appropriate classification for Mormonism, or at least for the Mormons who frequent this board. My frustration is this: how do you get someone to submit their beliefs to rational analysis when they say that they already have and it’s abundantly clear that they have not?

Under the Mercy,
Phaedrus
 
mom of 5,
So, Catholics must be interested in LDS in order to give them the true story of our faith, unraveling the untruths they have been taught from the cradle. As for converts, they don’t get the full beliefs until they have been baptised and then, very slowly fed the LDS Doctrine. Before they know it, the Doctrine changes and they have to learn all over again. For a huge number of LDS converts, it is in the front door and out the back door in a short time, never taking names off the LDS roles. We must live our religion to give the good example God expects of all of us.
Hmmm sounds like you are projecting to me.

Are Catholics fully versed in the dynamics of the Inquisition, or the Crusades before “converting”?

Personally I cant see how anyone can look at history and the Politics involved in the Making of the RCC and come away with anything other than the Church fell into Apostasy.

And speaking of Changing Doctrine? can you buy your family out of pergatory or not?
 
it’s just not the same you see. The RCC has the catechism to provide an easy refernce to all binding doctrine. RCIA is a lengthy process taking up to a year in which doctrine is covered in great detail. The catechumen/candidate is encouraged to obtain and study not only the Bible but the catechism as well. There are many steps along the way to ensure that the individual truly understands what is being taught and wishes to continue. Finally at the end there is no pressure to convert. Some people go through RCIA classes more than once just to be sure they understand and agree with Catholic teaching. This is very much accepted by Catholics.

That people in the Catholic church did bad things in the past or that some some catholics choose to participate in religious practices that go beyond what is “required” is no different than most other churches (including LDS) and in no way an indictment of the church as a whole. There are certainly LDS equivalents to all of the examples that you gave.

The actual binding doctrines have not changed and no one could ever “buy” anyone out of purgatory. This shows an absolute lack of understanding regarding catholic teaching on reconciliation, penance, indulgences, purgatory and salvation in general.

If one were to look at history the Catholic church would appear to have the strongest position as Gods church. A look at politics and history associated with the LDS church proves DRAMATIC changes in doctrine and practice. I believe it also proves absolutely that it is NOT of God.
 
BJ Colbert:
Wow! Thank you very much, these answers are all very interesting.

I am more inclined to ignor attacks on my religion as pure ignorance, rather than study the religion that is attacking it, so thoroughly.

So, what you are saying basically, is that the LDS Church is making great inroads into converting Catholics, and so you feel you must defend your faith by proving ours wrong.
Kind of like the war between the Protestants and the Catholics in Ireland.

I understand now why some of the attacks on LDS in this forum are quite vicious. It is because you feel threatened by us and it is imperative to your survival to prove us wrong.

All this time I thought it was simply an exchange of ideas and learning about each others faith. Big misunderstanding thanks for setting me straight.
BJ
As an Irish person, I dislike people referring to relgious division in Ireland, without fully knowing the history etc…

On many occasions the religions have worked together (Last inter-religious rebellion - 1798, but most of our parliamentarians, very important people, were Protestant, as was our first President - Note: President is the head of state, not government, and therefore, is only a figurehead), but never have we actually warred against eachother. One, the minority, just oppressed the minority. It was mainly politicial, even today, it’s just that one side is predominantly one religion.

I have gone into absolutely no detail, but still. Try to use a different example…
 
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amgid:
I don’t think that you do understand what I mean. When I say I “know,” I really mean that I “know”. I don’t mean that I have just a “strong feeling” that it is so. How do you know that there is a country called China (especially if you have never been there)? How do you know that somebody by the name of Abraham Lincoln ever existed? How do you know that men have been to the moon and come back? How do you know that what you heard in the news about an earthquake in Pakistan is true? Well, I know that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph was a prophet, and the Church is true, as surely, if not more so, as you know that these things are true. If I were to doubt that, I might as well doubt everything that I know. I wouldn’t be able to do anything, because I would never be sure of anything.
First, having had an LDS testimony, and at one time “knowing” the LDS Church was true, I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about. You’re probably wondering what happened. I started to wonder why people of good faith and intentions had different testimonies and “knew” conflicting things. One thing led to another and…

Second, Your analogy is quite poor. I can objectively prove that China exists, that Abraham Lincoln existed, and that there was a recent earthquake in Pakistan. While I don’t know these things are true firsthand, I do trust the sources of the information who do have firsthand knowledge. AND, most importantly, If I so choose, I can OBJECTIVELY prove to myself and others that it is indeed the truth. To claim that A is like B is wishful thinking at best, and self delusion at worst.

–I wrote:
“Go speak to some FLDS and ask them if they have a testimony. Let me assure you they have a stronger testimony than most active LDS. Are they right? Does the strength of their “knowledge”, their testimony, have anything to do with what is true and what isn’t? No, it does not. That begs the question then. If it doesn’t in their case, why does it in yours?”
–You wrote:
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amgid:
The answer is the same as I gave above. I don’t know, and I don’t care to know about what is going on in other peoples’ minds. I can only speak with confidence and certainty about what is going on in my own mind, and that is the only thing that I am interested in at the moment. All I can say is that I know with certainty that it is true; just as surely (if not more so) as I know that there is a country called China, and that they have just sent a couple of guys into space, and brought them back down safe!
Amgid, many of my cousins are FLDS and let me assure you, what’s going on in their minds is exactly what’s going on in your mind.

They read the same passage from Moroni, fast and pray diligently, live righteously, seek the truth, yet come up with an answer from God that says Gordon B. Hinkley is a false prophet.

It should concern you greatly why this is happening. How can it be that they get a different answer than you? If you are HONEST about truly seeking the truth you will find an answer to that question. If you are not interested in the truth, then you won’t seek the answer.

I don’t blame you if you don’t because it’s scary to seek the truth no matter where it leads. But, consider this. If the truth is really on your side, what do have to fear?
 
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