Why are Catholics so interested in the LDS faith?

[majick275]

Zakuska:

mom of 5,

Hmmm sounds like you are projecting to me.

Are Catholics fully versed in the dynamics of the Inquisition, or the Crusades before “converting”?

Personally I cant see how anyone can look at history and the Politics involved in the Making of the RCC and come away with anything other than the Church fell into Apostasy.

And speaking of Changing Doctrine? can you buy your family out of pergatory or not?

I had an intersting experience this evening on this. My wife is going through RCIA right now and I am attending with her. Tonights class was on church history and specifically dealt with schisms. The Crusades were covered honestly and objectively as were the Avignon popes, teh anti- popes, sale of indulgences, nationalism and all of the factors that caused the various schisms and especially the reformation. The instructor admitted the errors but showed how that only meant that people in the church messed up. It was brought out that no DOCTRINES were changed or established by any of these wicked people and that it is a true sign of Gods divine protection of the church that in spite of all of these problems the church survived intact still teaching the same Gospel.

RCIA where all is taught, nothing to hide and everyone gets to make an informed decision with no pressure. How is it done by LDS missionaries in comparison?

 

[amgid]

PaulDupre:

You do not know that China exists, you only believe it because you believe the witnesses who tell you so and the evidence you’ve seen.

I think that I can confidently say that I know China exists.

I, on the other hand have been to China, and therefore I know that it exists.

How can you be so sure? How do you know that it was not all just a fanciful dream? How do you know that you haven’t been duped by a clever hypnotist? Everything you can say to me I say to you.

Like all Mormons, you have muddied the distinction between belief and knowledge.

You are wrong about me, as you are wrong about Mormons.

You certainly do not know that Joseph Smith was a prophet.

I most certainly do!

You have merely chosen to believe those who tell you so.

Not true! Nobody has “told me so”. I am a convert. I was never taught by the missionaries. I never received formal missionary discussions. I came across the Book of Mormon, read it out of curiosity, pondered it, and the Lord revealed to me that it is true. I investigated it entirely by myself. When I became convinced that it was true, I asked to be baptized, and they baptized me without any further argument.

Your insistence that your belief is somehow special knowledge is gnostic and cultish.

That is your make-belief.

Peter’s declaration was one of belief, not knowledge.

Jesus told him that it was knowledge. Revelation is the surest form of knowledge.

Even when one receives revelation, he is still believing God who revealed it. It is not knowledge, it is faith. Faith to the point of certitude, perhaps, but still faith not knowledge.

Then you haven’t a foggiest idea what revelation is. You have never received one. Revelation is the surest form of knowledge.

Mormons need a philosophy 100 course.

I think that you do.

The differences between faith and knowledge were agreed upon millenia ago. One of the cultish aspects of Mormonism is how they keep redefining words to control the thought processes of their members. The word “know” is the prime example of this Orwellian practice.

amgid

 

[Zakuska]

How is it done by LDS missionaries in comparison?

New Members or even people investigating the church can attend “Gospel Principles class” A new member will at least need to attend this class for a year, before moving on to the deeper principles and doctrines. Need a good strong foundation to build on.

The curiculum is online here:
lds.org/gospellibrary/materials/gospel/Start%20Here_01.pdf

As far as doctrines being changed… I can name a few… Infant Baptism, Creation Ex Nihilio, which was born out of debates with Greek Philosphy (but did not exist prior). Death bed Baptism with Constantine (the rascally soul he) along with Sprinkling.

 

[majick275]

once again you ignore the catechism and choose to “proclaim” what is catholic doctrine.

The LDS process you outlined seems dishonest in “hiding” the “deep doctrines” until AFTER they have been a member for a year.

I wonder how many baptisms you would get if they attended the gospel pronciples class for a year BEFORE they were baptized.

Of course since there is no catechism any “controversial” subjects can be waved off as “speculation” or “misunderstanding” or even irelevant to get those “gators in the water”. I’ve noticed a steady “revision” of LDS history and doctrine over the years in LDS lesson manuals to make it appear more mainstream. I wonder how long before the BoA goes the way of the lectures on faith or the anti-polygamy proclamation.

 

[Zakuska]

Nothings stopping them from doing just that. I know lots of people who have done just that before Joining. My aunt took 20 years of classes before she finally joined.

Missionaries are out there to teach and Baptize following the Lords commission.

Of course since there is no catechism any “controversial” subjects can be waved off as “speculation” or “misunderstanding” or even irelevant to get those “gators in the water”. I’ve noticed a steady “revision” of LDS history and doctrine over the years in LDS lesson manuals to make it appear more mainstream. I wonder how long before the BoA goes the way of the lectures on faith or the anti-polygamy proclamation.

Hmm It took over 300 years before the scriptural Book of Enoch was removed from the Bible. Give it time.

 

[majick275]

I would bet that the converts who take the long route are far fewer in number but tend to be more like likely to stay active.

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

First, having had an LDS testimony, and at one time “knowing” the LDS Church was true, I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you know absolutely NOTHING of what I am talking about. As I told you before, I cannot vouch for what is going on in other peoples’ minds, including yours. I can only accept responsibility for what goes on in my own mind. And can assure you that when I say I know, it means that I know. How else am I suppose to say it to mean that I know?

You’re probably wondering what happened.

I am not wondering at all. There have been apostates from the LDS Church ever since it came into existence, and will continue to be. There is nothing to wonder about that.

I started to wonder why people of good faith and intentions had different testimonies and “knew” conflicting things. One thing led to another and…

You did? How amazing!

Second, Your analogy is quite poor. I can objectively prove that China exists, that Abraham Lincoln existed, and that there was a recent earthquake in Pakistan. While I don’t know these things are true firsthand, I do trust the sources of the information who do have firsthand knowledge. AND, most importantly, If I so choose, I can OBJECTIVELY prove to myself and others that it is indeed the truth. To claim that A is like B is wishful thinking at best, and self delusion at worst.

I did not give those examples as an “analogy,” of the kind that you are thinking. I gave that to demonstrate to you the degree of my conviction. I meant that just as you can (presumably) say with certainty that those things are true, I can declare with greater certainty that I know the LDS Church is true.

Amgid, many of my cousins are FLDS and let me assure you, what’s going on in their minds is exactly what’s going on in your mind.

Your “assurances” mean absolutely nothing to me, nor to any other impartial person. You are telling me that you know what is going on in my mind better than I do. You are wrong! Nobody knows what is going on in my mind better than I do!

They read the same passage from Moroni, fast and pray diligently, live righteously, seek the truth, yet come up with an answer from God that says Gordon B. Hinkley is a false prophet.

The same answer as above. I cannot vouch for what is going on in their minds. I can only speak for what is going on in my own mind.

It should concern you greatly why this is happening.

It does not concern me in the least, neither should it.

How can it be that they get a different answer than you?

I don’t know, and I don’t care to know. The only thing that concerns me is the answer that I get, not the answer that they get.

If you are HONEST about truly seeking the truth you will find an answer to that question. If you are not interested in the truth, then you won’t seek the answer.

Why? Why should that be of any importance to me? You don’t seem to realize how absurd your position is. Allow me to explain it with an analogy. Suppose that I followed a direction given in an old map, and discovered a great hoard of buried treasures. Then I went and dug up the treasure, sold it for hundreds of millions of dollars, and put the money in my bank account, and started living like a king. Now somebody like you comes along, and starts telling me that there is no buried treasure in that place because thousands of people have followed that direction and found nothing! So whom do you think I should believe; you, or the money I have in the bank?

I don’t blame you if you don’t because it’s scary to seek the truth no matter where it leads. But, consider this. If the truth is really on your side, what do have to fear?

Is that a silly joke or what?

amgid

 

[Tibbar]

BJ Colbert:

I am amazed at the study time put in by members of the Catholic Church to prove the LDS Church wrong.
Why do Catholics spend so much time and money buying and reading all things pro and con(mostly con)about the " Mormon "Church?
I am interested on the surface about the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church, just to be able to converse with my husband and understand the basic concepts of his Catholic faith, but I would never dig as deeply into it as some of these forum posters have delved into the LDS church.
So why is it so important to you? If it is just curiosity, why not ask the questions and accept the answers given by LDS, why tell them they are lying and don’t know their own religion as well as you Catholics know it.
Do you attend LDS meetings every Sunday for your entire life? How is it you claim to know more than a practicing Mormon?
Just curious…that is all…no offense intended BJ

LDS and RC are similar in more ways than they differ.

1. Both are hierarchical religious systems.
2. You don’t have to tow the party line to be RC or LDS. There are RC’s and LDS’s of all politico-social persuasions.
3. Both claim to be the fullness of revealed truth, yet neither claims to be the sole means to salvation.
4. Both have a multitude of demi-deities. RC’s call these the canonized saints. LDS says they are gods.
5. Both believe in intermediate states where deceased persons can progress to a higher state through the efforts of living persons. RC has indulgences for the poor souls in purgatory. LDS has ordinances like baptism for the dead.
6. Both are works religious systems, that is, they do not preach the gospel of grace alone through faith alone.
7. It is easy to see why a RC could become an LDS and vice versa as both systems have familiar parallels.
8. Both systems have food taboos.
9. Both systems have a priesthood.
10. Both are visible institutions. RC has the Vatican in Rome. LDS has the Temple in Salt Lake City.

To be honest, it seems as if they are in direct competition with each other. RC being like the established company, LDS like the powerhouse start-up.

Meanwhile a small group of zealous evangelical Christians works to draw the elect to repentence and new life in Christ.

 

[Zakuska]

majick275:

I would bet that the converts who take the long route are far fewer in number but tend to be more like likely to stay active.

I agree completely.

 

[misterX]

I know of two catholics who turned to lds… within a few years they returned home. and from what i hear quiet a lot of other “converts” do

 

[Zakuska]

My Catholic wife Turned LDS 15 years ago. Went on a mission herself. Married me in the temple and here we are. She never looked back.

 

[misterX]

BJ Colbert:

I am amazed at the study time put in by members of the Catholic Church to prove the LDS Church wrong.
Why do Catholics spend so much time and money buying and reading all things pro and con(mostly con)about the " Mormon "Church?
I am interested on the surface about the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church, just to be able to converse with my husband and understand the basic concepts of his Catholic faith, but I would never dig as deeply into it as some of these forum posters have delved into the LDS church.
So why is it so important to you? If it is just curiosity, why not ask the questions and accept the answers given by LDS, why tell them they are lying and don’t know their own religion as well as you Catholics know it.
Do you attend LDS meetings every Sunday for your entire life? How is it you claim to know more than a practicing Mormon?
Just curious…that is all…no offense intended BJ

Maybe you could ask the 100’s of lds’ers why they are here? I just like to learn about other denominations

 

[isaac.madsen]

misterX:

Maybe you could ask the 100’s of lds’ers why they are here?

I’m here to learn. I’m fascinated by all sorts of religions. I like to look for similarities, but I don’t condemn the differences. We all have the right to believe however we choose.

misterX:

I just like to learn about other denominations

• Isaac Madsen

 

[ldsfan]

catholics r tryin to find out how many religions know the truth, cuz the catholics r liers,pope sylvester the first changed the sabbath find out for ur self…they installed pagan worship including the rosary which was a pagan prayer…they worship the sun…thou shalt not worship any engraven images statues etc…

 

[dennisknapp]

I know I am a bit late coming in on this debate, but here is my 2 cents.

I agree that defining the Apostasy in precise theological terms, and exactly how and when it occurred, is a bit difficult to do.

But our observations lead us to the conclusion that it did happen. A US judge once said that although I can’t give an accurate legal definition of what constitutes pornography, I can always recognize it when I see it! The same holds true of the Apostasy**. I can’t give you an accurate theological description for it, but I can for sure recognize it when I see it. And that is what I observe in the Christian world today.**

This is an argument from silence. It like saying, “this man murdered his wife.” The man responds, “No I didn’t. What proof do you have?” You say, “well, since there is no evidence to convict you it may be hard to prove you did it, but I know a murderer when I see one.” This would never hold up in a court of law.

Mormon verdict: Catholic Church found guilty on a count of lack of evidence.

amgid:
There are biblical passages that LDS understand as pointing to the restoration of the gospel in the latter days, but they are open to interpretation, and I am sure you would not agree with them.

True, there in no scriptural passage that states there will be a full apostasy, none.

amgid:
I don’t claim to be an expert on the Catholic Church and its teachings, but I don’t think I need to be in order to come to that conclusion. I come to that conclusion as per what I stated above.

Yes, you come to that conclusion based on a total lack of evidence.

amgid:
God’s true church must be led by revelation from God. That has been the pattern throughout sacred history. And people who receive revelations from God are normally called prophets!

Yes, God has indeed led His people through prophets. We know these prophets are true if they uphold that which God has revealed previously, not if they contradict it.

amgid:
God communicates His will to His prophets in many different ways, “visions” being one of them. As it says in Proverbs 29:18: “where there is no vision, the people perish”!

So, you base this entirely on one passage in Proverbs, and a faulty reading of it at that. Amazing.

amgid:
Where does it say that they aren’t necessary? That has been the pattern of God’s dealings with mankind throughout sacred history. What has changed? Has God suddenly changed? Has God’s behavior towards men suddenly undergone a fundamental metamorphosis that He no longer wishes to communicate with them by revelation any more? If God has spoken to mankind by revelation from the dawn of creation, why should He not want to do so now? Are we less in need of His direction and guidance now than we were before? I think not!

The revelation is over. It ended with Christ, who IS the final Word. There need not be any other.

amgid:
Since that has been God’s pattern of behavior towards mankind throughout history, we must assume that pattern must continue, unless God had revealed to us by another public revelation in the Bible that that pattern was to change; and I see no such revelation in the Bible.

(Continued into the next post…)

amgid

The Word of God came in human form. There in no other Word.
Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

amgid:

This event I believe occurred when the Apostles died. That is when the authority was lost, and the church began to drift. It didn’t become wicked! But the authority was lost, and in process of time we have reached the stage that we are in today.

amgid

So, make a conclusion and infer all premises on said conclusion, interesting. Have you ever taken a logic class? In logic there are things called fallacies. Fallacies are indicators that an argument is invalid. Some fallacies include circular reason, or reasoning in a circle (as you have done above), begging the question (as you have done above and in other places), and the argument from silence (as you continually do).

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

BJ Colbert:

I am amazed at the study time put in by members of the Catholic Church to prove the LDS Church wrong.
Why do Catholics spend so much time and money buying and reading all things pro and con(mostly con)about the " Mormon "Church?
I am interested on the surface about the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church, just to be able to converse with my husband and understand the basic concepts of his Catholic faith, but I would never dig as deeply into it as some of these forum posters have delved into the LDS church.
So why is it so important to you? If it is just curiosity, why not ask the questions and accept the answers given by LDS, why tell them they are lying and don’t know their own religion as well as you Catholics know it.
Do you attend LDS meetings every Sunday for your entire life? How is it you claim to know more than a practicing Mormon?
Just curious…that is all…no offense intended BJ

LDS claims to be the true Church restored under Joseph Smith. We as Catholics desire your church to bring forth evidence for this, not just assertions. The evidence should equal the assertion.

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

BJ Colbert:

Wow! Thank you very much, these answers are all very interesting.

I am more inclined to ignor attacks on my religion as pure ignorance, rather than study the religion that is attacking it, so thoroughly.

BJ

Why would it be ignorance to desire evidence for your claims?

Peace

 

[catholic-rcia]

I know a story of a nurse who told her son that his birth parents were bad people, that both are probably still in prison or dead. That they gave him up seconds after the birth and did not even want to take one look, years later the young man found an 18 year old news article in his attic. It was a story on a baby that went missing in a New York hospital 18 years ago. A young nurse took him and fled the area changing her identity.

After this discovery It took just two days to locate his birth parents. They had searched and prayed for their son for all these years. It was a tremendous reunion. He was shocked and dismayed that these two, His parents were who they really were. He found a home that had been waiting with open arms for His return. Being who he was, after the arrest of the women who stole him he returned to her side, he had no hate in him and told her that he would visit every now and then. “That we must move forward into the unknown, care about each other even though.” She did smile a bit, she knew that he was a good one, she knew she needed help.

God Bless

 

[isaac.madsen]

While that is a very nice story, I fail to see the connection to the present topic.

dennisknapp:

Mormon verdict: Catholic Church found guilty on a count of lack of evidence.

Then you say the following:

dennisknapp:

LDS claims to be the true Church restored under Joseph Smith. We as Catholics desire your church to bring forth evidence for this, not just assertions. The evidence should equal the assertion.

Isn’t this self-contradictory? You use the same tactics that you so vehemently state are useless. Just understand this: We have no proof. You want proof of something, ask God. I’m sure he can work something out for you, but the LDS focus on faith, not proof. Using human understanding to prove a spiritual idea is utterly ridiculous. Humanity is flawed. The spirit is not. If you want historical proof, you’re looking for the wrong thing. If you want spiritual proof, ask God. If you don’t believe he gives answers to those who seek them, you’re in for a rough life.

Truly,

Isaac T. Madsen