Why are certain monastic orders so hard?

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PazzoGrande said:
Again, because it was my understanding that it was supposed to be a life of vigour and hardship. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around that aspect of it. I understand the solitude isn’t easy, but I don’t fully comprehend the penitential nature of monasticism.

They sleep on hard surfaces and have to stuff their pillows with straw or sleep with no pillow at all. They have to get up in the middle of the night to pray. But how else is life there physically difficult?

They have to pray all of the Hours. But in what specific ways are their prayer obligations difficult?

Those are the questions I’m asking.
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When you’ve slept on hard surfaces - hard as your floor - night after night for a few years without a break then you can talk. Most of us would find it difficult if not impossible for the simple fact that we are so used to our beds. Not to mention getting up in the middle of the night to pray. Parents can tell you how difficult sleep deprivation can be.

Remember that both of these things are among classic techniques used to psychologically ‘break down’ enemy soldiers taken prisoner.

As has been said, I think it would be the isolation as much as anything. Here in Australia we experiemented for a time with almost complete isolation of prisoners from each other in the notorious Port Arthur prison - 150-odd years ago - and a large percentage of them actually went insane. It is as simple as humans crave contact.
 
anruari said:
If your interest in this area is strong, or you are considering such a lifestyle for yourself, or you want to deepen your relationship with The Lord, perhaps it would be worthwhile to make a retreat with such an order and see for yourself.
Most orders welcome retreat-ants into their lifestyle for periods of a few days to a few months. You can live as if you were one of the community, and access a spiritual director while there.
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Yeah I wanted to do that, but unfortunately I live in Hawaii and there aren’t any monasteries here, save for a Benedictine one which isn’t even on this same island. I couldn’t get the experience, so reading about it is the best I could do.
 
LilyM said:
When you’ve slept on hard surfaces - hard as your floor - night after night for a few years without a break then you can talk. Most of us would find it difficult if not impossible for the simple fact that we are so used to our beds. Not to mention getting up in the middle of the night to pray. Parents can tell you how difficult sleep deprivation can be.
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Thanks for your response, but I don’t know about that.

I actually have frequently slept on the floor without anything beneath me. Granted, it wasn’t for years without break (I have been doing it for years but I pretty much sleep wherever I feel like it, bed, sofa or floor), but it wasn’t difficult to do.

Also, supposedly it is actually was normal for people to have fragmented sleep instead of a long continuous night. And supposedly, historically, people slept for a few hours at a time, before electrical lighting was made available. There’s even a psychological term for it: Polyphasic sleep
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

Da Vinci did it wisegeek.com/what-is-the-da-vinci-sleep-schedule.htm

So perhaps when Saint Bruno put the Carthusian Rule together, getting up at night wasn’t such a sacrifice.
 
Zackeera said:
I have a difficult time seeing monks as spiritual athletes. What they impose upon themselves is not from God, but a humanistic attempt at satisfying something deep within themselves. Rather than going out and being a light in a fallen world, they physically separate themselves from the world and become useless to the world. This is not what God has intended for those who follow Christ. He wants us, who are followers of Christ, to be “fishers of men”.
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Luke 10

38 Now it came to pass as they went, that he entered into a certain town: and a certain woman named Martha, received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sitting also at the Lord’s feet, heard his word.
40 But Martha was busy about much serving. Who stood and said: Lord, hast thou no care that my sister hath left me alone to serve? speak to her therefore, that she help me.
41 And the Lord answering, said to her: Martha, Martha, thou art careful, and art troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
 
Honestly, what is the hardest thing is that the routine is so unchanging. It is easy to be a vegetarian, and physical disciplines aren’t really that difficult. But, day in and day out, the same life, with little or no personal (name removed by moderator)ut on the daily schedule can become grueling after years and years. The silence, the solitude, even if one prefers it, can sometimes be very hard.
 
Zackeera said:
I have a difficult time seeing monks as spiritual athletes. What they impose upon themselves is not from God, but a humanistic attempt at satisfying something deep within themselves. ".
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So John the Baptist’s life in the desert, living on locusts and wild honey, was not from God, but an humanistic attempt of some sort?
 
LilyM said:
When you’ve slept on hard surfaces - hard as your floor - night after night for a few years without a break then you can talk. Most of us would find it difficult if not impossible for the simple fact that we are so used to our beds. Not to mention getting up in the middle of the night to pray. Parents can tell you how difficult sleep deprivation can be.

Remember that both of these things are among classic techniques used to psychologically ‘break down’ enemy soldiers taken prisoner.
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Lily, it’s not something used to break down enemies, that would be sleep deprevation. Generally, in a monestary, you go to bed much earlier, generally right after Vespers (near dusk). So the monks get an adequate amount of sleep.

And yes, I have slept on nothing but hard surfaces for long periods I am ex-Army. The ‘after a year’ part in immaterial. The hard part (no pun) is the first few weeks. Then your body gets acclimated to the new sleeping conditions. Likewise with the use of a single blanket in cold weather.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Monks do not get up in the middle of the night to pray (though they get up really early in the morning, just like Navy Seals).
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Actually, they do. The Liturgy of the Hours in a monastery involves the monks gathering for prayer every midnight for Vigils, which is one of the 'Major Hours", with Lauds (sunrise or 6:00am) and Vespers ( sunset or 6:00pm ). They will also gather for the Minor Hours ( Terce - 9:00am, Sext - noon, None - 3:00pm and Compline, 9:00pm)

Monks of stricter observances will often gather for ALL the Canonical Hours ( every 3 hours, 24\7)
 
PazzoGrande said:
Yeah I wanted to do that, but unfortunately I live in Hawaii and there aren’t any monasteries here, save for a Benedictine one which isn’t even on this same island. I couldn’t get the experience, so reading about it is the best I could do.
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Perhaps you might save up and make a pilgrimage. I spent the Easter Tridium at a Carmilite monastery when I was 18. It was an amazing experience. I hope to be able to make such traditional retreats again in the not to distant future.

It’s more common for me to attend big Charismatic rallies & conferences.
 
I would think that if you have a calling to be a Franciscan but were actually a Carthusian then life would be hard.

However, if you had a calling to be a Carthusian, but were in fact a Franciscan then life would be equally hard.

And if you had a call to communal life then life as a diocesan priest would be hard too.

Living in community is hard - period. But so is being married and having kids.

And, apparently, being a mega rich, famous and popular rock superstar is hard too - look how many have killed themselves…

That is why it is so important to discern your vocation.

Unfortunately I did not have a vocation to be a mega rich rock superstar;)

But I did have a vocation to be a motorbike riding dad and husband, and to teach religion, and be a school chaplain.

Thank God he let me keep the bike!👍
 
TriumphGuy is dead right–there’s nothing about Carthusian life that’s hard: if you are called to it, then it is (by definition) the best life you can live!

If I remember correctly, there are only two letters from St. Bruno that have come down from us today, and in one of them, he’s writing to someone back in the cities, talking about his new monastery. And the whole gist of it is, him saying “why WOULDN’T you want to get away from all the sin and distraction in the world? Why WOULDN’T you want to come out here, into the mountains, where you can dedicate yourself entirely to God?” There’s such a joy and liberation in his words that you can just tell that there’s nothing in the Carthusian life that’s hard for him–it’s simply about radically renouncing the sinful world in order to live in the heavenly one.

And the Carthusians’ presence in the world has borne many wonderful fruits for the Church, despite their reclusion. The witness of the English Carthusian martyrs is one example, their influence on St. Thomas More and El Greco, among others, is another. Finally, and more recently, I particularly recommend the book “The Way of Silent Love” as an excellent spiritual book for any Christian.
 
triumphguy said:
But I did have a vocation to be a motorbike riding dad and husband, and to teach religion, and be a school chaplain.
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Sweet life you got 🙂 Not to derail the conversation though, but I thought Canon Law requires one to be a priest in order to be a chaplain.
 
PazzoGrande said:
Thanks for your response, but I don’t know about that.

I actually have frequently slept on the floor without anything beneath me. Granted, it wasn’t for years without break (I have been doing it for years but I pretty much sleep wherever I feel like it, bed, sofa or floor), but it wasn’t difficult to do.

Also, supposedly it is actually was normal for people to have fragmented sleep instead of a long continuous night. And supposedly, historically, people slept for a few hours at a time, before electrical lighting was made available. There’s even a psychological term for it: Polyphasic sleep
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

Da Vinci did it wisegeek.com/what-is-the-da-vinci-sleep-schedule.htm

So perhaps when Saint Bruno put the Carthusian Rule together, getting up at night wasn’t such a sacrifice.
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Brendan said:
Lily, it’s not something used to break down enemies, that would be sleep deprevation. Generally, in a monestary, you go to bed much earlier, generally right after Vespers (near dusk). So the monks get an adequate amount of sleep.

And yes, I have slept on nothing but hard surfaces for long periods I am ex-Army. The ‘after a year’ part in immaterial. The hard part (no pun) is the first few weeks. Then your body gets acclimated to the new sleeping conditions. Likewise with the use of a single blanket in cold weather.
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You’re both, I’m guessing, talking about relatively young and healthy bodies. I’m not so old but have all manner of orthopaedic problems that mean that I would never be able to sufficiently acclimate to sleeping on hard surfaces.
 
LilyM said:
You’re both, I’m guessing, talking about relatively young and healthy bodies. I’m not so old but have all manner of orthopaedic problems that mean that I would never be able to sufficiently acclimate to sleeping on hard surfaces.
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Gotta agree - once you hit 50 sleeping can be painful!
 
Zackeera said:
I have a difficult time seeing monks as spiritual athletes. What they impose upon themselves is not from God, but a humanistic attempt at satisfying something deep within themselves. Rather than going out and being a light in a fallen world, they physically separate themselves from the world and become useless to the world. This is not what God has intended for those who follow Christ. He wants us, who are followers of Christ, to be “fishers of men”.
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I think the world would be a lot more fallen if we didn’t have men and women devoted to a life of constant prayer for the rest of us.
 
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