Why are Ex-Catholics so angry about their CC and Catholic Converts are not?

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catsrus said:
:rolleyes: ok. If you say so…
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I live in Spain. 95% of people born in the 1960s and 70s–i.e. the Franco era–were baptised RC. Yes, I say so. And a large number of RC priests are now evangelical pastors.

Are you a Spain expert? I would be delighted to discuss this with you.
 
cheddarsox said:
There are lots of former Catholics that don’t bash the RCC. But of course…you’re less likely to hear from them, about them if you are still in the RCC. The ones making noise are the ones that you’ll notice. In my journey from Catholicism, through Protestantism, and paganism, I have met lots of former RCC’s, who have fond memories of their childhood faith, and don’t knock it, except for the fact that they don’t believe it anymore.

But since they are out of the CC, I guess most RCC members don’t hear their stories. Also, in my experience, simply leaving the Catholic faith is taken as an afront by many Catholics. Most of the time, when it comes up in conversation, they are the ones pushing the issues, being angry and argumentative with me. They want to prove me wrong, win me back, defend the faith. So even though I had no desire or issue to argue faith with them…they push the issues, and then tell me I am hateful, angry, and anti-Catholic.

So…some of this might merely be who you are in contact with, and your own personal perspective.

Personally, I am grateful for the faith foundation I received in Catholicism, it prepared me for what lay ahead.

cheddar
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I am very grateful for the RC church in Spain, because it has prepared the ground for many spiritually hungry people to embrace Jesus, either within the RC church or outside, as is increasingly the case.
 
JesusforMadrid said:
Yes, in this and other sources Scott Hahn’s testimony is filled with anger. His basic message: I was an angry anti-Catholic bigot. I became a Catholic and I am angry how fellow Evangelicals view my conversion. I am angry the the Evangelical church did not teach me about various RC teachings. Angry, angry, angry.

I am paraphrasing, obviously. Perhaps the RCs on this board do not have the sensitivity to pick up on Hahn’s attitude in the midst of their rejoicing about his conversion.
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Can’t really comment one way or another unless you actually post some of the words.
 
I have read Scott Hahn’s story a number of times, as has my Protestant husband. Neither of us thought he came across as angry. Just because he has embraced Catholicism doesn’t mean he is angry at his earlier life. In fact, he writes quite fondly about his father-in-law, who is not Catholic.
 
Catherine_S said:
👋 It is not surprising to me that there are **Catholics **who **have **and will in the future be attracted to a gospel that meets their personal needs.
How long it will last is up to the Lord :)!
.

Charles Colson (P) Well acclamed founder of Prison Ministry.
Some evangelists see converts **as trophies in a big game hunt **and measure their success by numbers . . . The result of all this is a watered-down message that, in large part, accounts for today’s **epidemic spread **of **easy believism, Christianity without cost. **

Many evangelical leaders are alarmed at an unbridled love of mammon among their flocks and peers, and an increasing number of books are now appearing, by, e.g., Ron Side, Jacques Ellul, Tom Sine, Anthony Campolo, John White, and Richard Foster.
Sadly, however, the concern of wise leaders will likely have little effect on the massive accommodation to the influence of worldly pressures.

Charles Colson (P)
Much of today’s teaching and preaching communicates Christianity as an instant fix to all **of our pains **and struggles. Consequently, we begin to think of our faith as a sparkling magic wand: we wave it, and presto, our problems are gone in a puff of smoke. But this is, **bluntly **put, heresy. Like most subtle heresies, it tickles our ears . It not only makes Christians incredibly naive in approaching complex problems, but it can shatter the fragile faith of the believer who expects the magic wand to work every time. When those problems **don’t **disappear . . he questions whether his spirituality is faulty.

.
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I believe you are quoting from Dave Armstrong’s long critique of Evangelical Protestantism titled “Protestantism: Conceptual and Developmental Errors”, am I correct? Here is the full text of that critique.

In any case this is already off-topic.
 
Madrid, You should be grateful for the Catholic Church. We gave you the Bible which you misquote. Without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible and you would not ever have heard of Jesus. He is the one who founded the Catholic Church. Also it was Catholics who drove the Moors out of Spain. You would be facing Mecca to pray otherwise. I have been to Spain and enjoyed it very much. If you really loved Jesus and Spain you would strengthen his Church rather then try and weaken it with schism and heresy.
 
JesusforMadrid said:
Yes, in this and other sources Scott Hahn’s testimony is filled with anger. His basic message: I was an angry anti-Catholic bigot. I became a Catholic and I am angry how fellow Evangelicals view my conversion. I am angry the the Evangelical church did not teach me about various RC teachings. Angry, angry, angry.

I am paraphrasing, obviously. Perhaps the RCs on this board do not have the sensitivity to pick up on Hahn’s attitude in the midst of their rejoicing about his conversion.
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Very telling that you still don’t want to cite any specific passages in the book. Just more blanket allegations with ZERO proof…
 
exoflare said:
Very telling that you still don’t want to cite any specific passages in the book. Just more blanket allegations with ZERO proof…
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I have already cited from the Lamb’s Supper.

In his book Hail Holy Mother, he comes across as angry and at times very uncharitable. In his discussion about what the Greek word for brother (adelphos) means, he makes very frequent use of the term “heretic”, in an angry way that basically calls all Evangelicals “heretics”. He calls Evangelical scholarship “amateur exegesis”.

I am not surprised that many of you do not find Scott Hahn to be problematic, but I do. Many of you claim that James McCarthy is offensive, but he sounds often quite similar to Hahn, only is calling RCs “heretics”. Otherwise, they are quite similar in tone.
 
exoflare said:
citing a whole book? lol

Again, that you fail to give specific passages from the book is all too revealing…
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Oh yes, all too revealing…

“amateur exegesis” p. 105, Hail Holy Mother.

Have you even read Scott Hahn?
 
RobedWithLight said:
I believe you are quoting from Dave Armstrong’s long critique of Evangelical Protestantism titled “Protestantism: Conceptual and Developmental Errors”, am I correct? Here is the full text of that critique.
In any case this is already off-topic.
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Yep :yup: time ran out before I managed to attach page link!
Thank You.
.
 
I’m not sure that I agree with the assumption that ex-Catholics are angry and ex-Evangelicals are not. In my experience the MOST VOCAL ex-Catholics, and those who have joined very hard-line churches, come across as very angry, and some go as far as setting about trying to persuade others to join them.

I left the Catholic Church 7 years ago. I wasn’t angry. I was deeply hurt. And I’ve been involving in helping several others resolve their problems with Catholicism and remain in the Catholic Church. Leaving a church family is extremely painful and costly, and not to be done lightly.

Many Catholics move very, very quietly, over to Methodism or mainstream Presbyterianism or Anglicanism. They never cross the Catholic radar again, to express anger or anything else . Many carry wounds which take a very, very long time to heal, and only come to the surface when someone is kind and patient enough to listen.

And I assure you, many of those who choose to leave the Catholic church are ostracised by church families - that is not just a protestant phenomenon.

My limited experience of Protestants who become Catholic is that they too are very varied - many come over for pragmatic reasons (marriage being the most common). I know some who simply hunger for Eucharist. I know some others who become extremely arrogant (arrogance, maybe, rather than anger is the main pitfall here?) and condescending. That group, I find very difficult to cope with.

As for Scott Hain - I found him patronising to Protestantism. Some of the statements he makes regarding protestant beliefs are simply inaccurate. And before you ask for quotations, I left the book into a second-hand bookshop, as i do with all books that I find unhelpful but think might be right for someone else!
 
JesusforMadrid said:
I have already cited from the Lamb’s Supper.

In his book Hail Holy Mother, he comes across as angry and at times very uncharitable. In his discussion about what the Greek word for brother (adelphos) means, he makes very frequent use of the term “heretic”, in an angry way that basically calls all Evangelicals “heretics”. He calls Evangelical scholarship “amateur exegesis”.

I am not surprised that many of you do not find Scott Hahn to be problematic, but I do. Many of you claim that James McCarthy is offensive, but he sounds often quite similar to Hahn, only is calling RCs “heretics”. Otherwise, they are quite similar in tone.
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JesusforMadrid said:
Oh yes, all too revealing…

“amateur exegesis” p. 105, Hail Holy Mother.

Have you even read Scott Hahn?
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Respectfully, you have posted page numbers but other than your summary of what Scott Hahn said, you have NOT posted what he has said that is “anti-Evangelical”.

Many here do not have the book and those that do have said they do not “see” what you are talking about.

Try posting SPECIFIC quotes from the book, citing page number and the quote, instead of page number and your summary. You have made some serious allegations against a person and you need to back them up.
 
originally posted by JesusforMadrid
And a large number of RC priests are now evangelical pastors.
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That is NOT what you posted. You posted:
originally posted by** JesusforMadrid**
Many if not most of the Evangelical pastors in my country are former RCs.
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So, which is it?
originally posted by JesusforMadrid
Are you a Spain expert?
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No, anymore than you are a “Catholic” expert. 😛
 
Nice try again, but I have that book too and by the way it’s called “Hail Holy Queen”, not “Hail Holy Mother”…

On p. 105 what he is referring to as “amateur exegesis” is an argument made by a man named Helvidius, who argued against St. Jerome - this would have been in the 4th or 5th century, when there were no Evangelicals around to begin with!

At least now I know you aren’t just pulling random page #'s out of thin air. But if even after all this time, that is still the best evidence you have for Scott Hahn’s “anti-evangelical” tone I’d say you’re probably hurting your cause more than helping it right now.
 
exoflare said:
Nice try again, but I have that book too and by the way it’s called “Hail Holy Queen”, not “Hail Holy Mother”…

On p. 105 what he is referring to as “amateur exegesis” is an argument made by a man named Helvidius, who argued against St. Jerome - this would have been in the 4th or 5th century, when there were no Evangelicals around to begin with!

At least now I know you aren’t just pulling random page #'s out of thin air. But if even after all this time, that is still the best evidence you have for Scott Hahn’s “anti-evangelical” tone I’d say you’re probably hurting your cause more than helping it right now.
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OK, lets do the following. Let’s each get out our library of Scott Hahn books, (mine in Spanish, such as Roma, Dulce Lugar and these others I have mentioned) and we can do a detailed study on each one of these, searching the text for where I don’t like Hahn’s tone. Then I shall translate each of these texts, name the page number, you can buy the Spanish versions to ensure that I am not making it up. We will do this so that I can show that world that my impression of Scott Hahn is what it is.

Next, I would like you to buy some books by Erik Svendson, and James McCarthy. We will then see if their supposed Anti-catholic tone is as anti and the anti-Evangelical tone of Scott Hahn.

Deal?

Oh, what fun!
 
catsrus said:
That is NOT what you posted. You posted:

So, which is it?
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Let see:
  1. Many, if not most pastors in Spain are former Roman Catholics, baptised in the RC Church
  2. A large number of priests are now pastors.
  3. Since all priests are Roman Catholic, #2 is a subset of #1.
What else does this imply? Can you get it? It is like a Venn diagram, only the smaller circle is floating within the larger circle. Yes, some pastors are #1, former RCs, but not #2

Thanks for asking. I hope this helps.
 
MariaG said:
Respectfully, you have posted page numbers but other than your summary of what Scott Hahn said, you have NOT posted what he has said that is “anti-Evangelical”.

Many here do not have the book and those that do have said they do not “see” what you are talking about.

Try posting SPECIFIC quotes from the book, citing page number and the quote, instead of page number and your summary. You have made some serious allegations against a person and you need to back them up.
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OK, but I shall be quoting from my Spanish versions such as Roma Dulce Lugar. La verdad es que no sé si las páginas corresponden, pero problamente si cito la página, puedes averiguar donde esta.

I can see I have touched a real nerve in the Catholic Answers community. Scott Hahn left the evangelical church to become Catholic, his wife joining later, and has since then exerted considerable energies to defend this decision.
 
JesusforMadrid said:
OK, but I shall be quoting from my Spanish versions such as Roma Dulce Lugar. La verdad es que no sé si las páginas corresponden, pero problamente si cito la página, puedes averiguar donde esta.

I can see I have touched a real nerve in the Catholic Answers community. Scott Hahn left the evangelical church to become Catholic, his wife joining later, and has since then exerted considerable energies to defend this decision.
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That is okay, I am sure if you post the page you do have it on, along with the quote, we can “find” it.

And there ARE people here who know spanish so they may be able to help out. Even I in my limited spanish understand that you do not know if the page numbers correspond, but probably if you site the page number we will be able to find where it is. Or something like that:p

As for touching a nerve, all you are seeing is a desire for people not to be attacked unfairly without documentation. Repsectfully, I think this falls more under, “do not gossip” rather than any particular “nerve” in the Catholic Community.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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