Why are fundamentalists always so angry?

[Tietjen]

But I do not like the way events here have made me more suspicious of Catholics, and has helped to undo some of the work I’ve done over the years, in learning tolerance of their faith. I wonder why I care anymore about being tolerant, when so many are not tolerant of mine.

I’m sorry that is all you’re walking away with from this site. Every group of people (religious or otherwise) has rude people as well as polite. Shalom.

 

[Tietjen]

I don’t mind people sharing their religious beliefs ONCE. But too often I have had Christians share it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN until I sometimes felt I needed to curse the name of Jesus just to get them to STOP. That’s how bad some Christians can get with this proselytization thing.

To make matters worse, when my mother was dying in the hospital a few months ago, her nurse began trying to proselytize me. I had to leave to get her to shut up. I complained to her surpervisor, and she was fired (evidently, it was not the first time she’d done that.)

Then, more recently, I got a letter from a JW who worked for the hospice my mother was taken care of by (after she was diagnosed as terminal). and SHE tried converting me (this time to JWism). I complained to the hospice corporation, and she too was fired for it.

I know I speak for all Jews, but especially for myself: JUST LEAVE US ALONE. We’ve heard the damn message, we’ve got it memorized for crying out loud. And it MEANS NOTHING TO US. I, at least, have long since reached saturation point with “the Gospel message” and would be eternally thankful to God if I never had to hear it again.

At this point, I put the Christian message right up there with Vonage and Head-On commercials. Enough already!

See, when I read your message (the one I just finished responding to) I felt badly that you had been treated rudely by some Catholics here. However, the more you speak, the more I am getting a better picture of what is truly going on. YOU came to a CATHOLIC forum and you expect the Catholics there to stop sharing their faith (which is what Catholic Answers is all about to being with). I believe it is you who are now being rude. You come into our house (virtual though it maybe) and demand of us that we cease and desist speaking about our Catholic faith. If you don’t like it here… get out. No one wants you to be upset and angry, so do yourself a favor and simply leave rather than making ridiculous demands of us to stop talking about our God and our Church.

 

[Tietjen]

I know fully what you believe. I just don’t accept it. So based on what you said then, this is one Jew who does NOT need to hear “the Gospel message” because I have heard it so many times I am thoroughly sick of it.

… and yet your pride, ego, and lack of charity forbid you from simply walking away. You, as educated as you make yourself out to be, are in a truly ridiculous situation. You obviously dislike it here, yet you have something in you that causes you to keep coming back if only to criticize the Church. You just can’t stop yourself. Well, no offense, but nothing else you have to say is worth listening to at this point. Take care and may the Lord someday allow you to actually understand (as opposed to simply hearing) His Gospel message.

 

[LilyM]

Yet, when Jews do convert to Christianity, they often express surprise that the Gospel message is really not what they had thought it was. That was also my own impression as a former pagan. I had thought, after thousands of exposures, that the Christian message was, stop being naughty, be perfect in every way, and a man with a white beard will give you everything you want. That’s Santa Claus! It can take many times hearing the same words to go from just memorizing a few phrases tog etting the point. When someone is saying something out of love for truth and love for God and love for neighbor and is accused of hostile or cruel motives, that is a clear sign of misunderstanding.

In Hashem’s defence (s)he (I’m terribly sorry for not knowing your gender ) has made abundantly clear in many threads that (s)he was raised in a family a substantial part of which was Catholic. As such, I’d give Hashem the benefit of the doubt in terms of knowing the Faith well enough that not being Catholic is a matter of choice and not ignorance.

And as to motive for coming here - (s)he has also made that clear in many places - it’s because of his/her work as a counsellor for people of other faiths who are converting to Judaism, a job which requires knowledge of those other faiths. As such, again, (s)he is not either fair or profitable game for proselytising.

And Hashem actually has a point - don’t we get annoyed when JW’s or Mormons doorknock or otherwise go overboard in efforts to convert us to THEIR faith? When they REPEATEDLY, even if we state we’re not interested, keep going? Why should you then expect others to welcome us with open arms when your approach is the same?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Two words: “Righteous Indignation”

 

[Kaninchen]

Two words: “Righteous Indignation”

Or self-righteous indigestion?

 

[Tietjen]

And Hashem actually has a point - don’t we get annoyed when JW’s or Mormons doorknock or otherwise go overboard in efforts to convert us to THEIR faith? When they REPEATEDLY, even if we state we’re not interested, keep going? Why should you then expect others to welcome us with open arms when your approach is the same?

My only problem with that is that she is coming here, to A CATHOLIC SITE whose entire purpose is to share the faith, and she says, “stop.” She takes on the identity of a victim set upon by the mean Catholics. Sorry, I’m not buying it. If she is that offended by Catholics who share their faith, perhaps she would do better to find a much smaller or less active site. Either way, why if she is soooo offended by us why does she continue to come here? Me thinks it is because she enjoys arguing.

 

[HashemEchad]

See, when I read your message (the one I just finished responding to) I felt badly that you had been treated rudely by some Catholics here. However, the more you speak, the more I am getting a better picture of what is truly going on. YOU came to a CATHOLIC forum and you expect the Catholics there to stop sharing their faith (which is what Catholic Answers is all about to being with). I believe it is you who are now being rude. You come into our house (virtual though it maybe) and demand of us that we cease and desist speaking about our Catholic faith. If you don’t like it here… get out. No one wants you to be upset and angry, so do yourself a favor and simply leave rather than making ridiculous demands of us to stop talking about our God and our Church.

You are not familiar with the entire story of how I came here, and why I stayed.

I originally found this board via a Google search. I was trying to get answers to some questions I had about old Holy Week legends my late mother had told me about (she died this past March).

She was raised Catholic but converted to Orthodox Judaism in the 1940s. I was reminiscing with some family members about things she used to talk about, and that was how the Holy Week legends arose. I got online to research it, and the search led me here.

Once I got my questions answered, I clicked around to see what kind of site this was, saw some threads asking people about getting Jews to convert to catholicism, and because I have a long history in interrreligious activities, I decided to read them, and the rest is history.

Oh, and some Catholics began consistently trying to proselytize me while I am here, and even though I at first tried being polite and told them I was not here to convert but to gain understanding, they never let up, which, if it had been done to you (say, by Jack Chick-type fundies), you might understand how downright annoying it can be. It was an unexpected experience, because never before had Catholics ever tried to convert me, this is why I used to feel “safe” around them, unlike Protestant fundies and JWs.

I’m here to learn for the purpose of understanding (not conversion), and to help anyone who asks me about Judaism. I’m not here to convert to another religion OR to convert Gentiles to Judaism.

 

[HashemEchad]

In Hashem’s defence (s)he (I’m terribly sorry for not knowing your gender ) has made abundantly clear in many threads that (s)he was raised in a family a substantial part of which was Catholic. As such, I’d give Hashem the benefit of the doubt in terms of knowing the Faith well enough that not being Catholic is a matter of choice and not ignorance.

And as to motive for coming here - (s)he has also made that clear in many places - it’s because of his/her work as a counsellor for people of other faiths who are converting to Judaism, a job which requires knowledge of those other faiths. As such, again, (s)he is not either fair or profitable game for proselytising.

And Hashem actually has a point - don’t we get annoyed when JW’s or Mormons doorknock or otherwise go overboard in efforts to convert us to THEIR faith? When they REPEATEDLY, even if we state we’re not interested, keep going? Why should you then expect others to welcome us with open arms when your approach is the same?

Thank you for understanding…andf for explaining. It gets really tiresome for me to have to explain each time to people who don’t know how I wound up here. actually I first came here due to a Google search on Holy Week customs.)

Oops, just noticed one other clarification I should make: while it is true that the groups I work with assist people converting to Judaism from other faiths when the need arises, our primary work is in assisting Jews who are returning to Judaism after having previously joined other faiths. BOTH situations require me to have a very thorough handle on other religions (at least those that Jews are most likely to be returning to Judaism from, such as Christianity and Buddhism.)

 

[Tietjen]

… if it had been done to you (say, by Jack Chick-type fundies), you might understand how downright annoying it can be.

If I were to actually go to a Jack Chick-type fundamental site, I would expect not only to be proselytized to but down right attacked. This is why I do not go to these sites.

It was an unexpected experience, because never before had Catholics ever tried to convert me, this is why I used to feel “safe” around them, unlike Protestant fundies and JWs.

Why wouldn’t you now feel safe around Catholics? Certainly, you aren’t fearful that we might somehow cause you to forget Judaism and embrace Catholicism. The fact is that most Catholics aren’t going to beat you over the head to get you to convert. However, perhaps at least some of what you are feeling is brought on not by Catholics but by unrealistic expectations. Allow me to clarify. You’ve only been a member here a couple of months. In that time you’ve started a very large number of threads and are knocking on the 1K posts door. Now when you explain to “John” in one thread, that you are not interested in learning about the Catholic Church for the purpose of someday converting, you are forgetting about “Terry” in a different thread who is responding to you in the same way that “John” did. So, you tell “Terry” that you’re not interested but in yet another thread there’s “Marsha” proselytizing. So, possibly this could be at least part of your problem. There are many well-intentioned Catholics who have communicated with you and individually they are doing what we Christians (Catholic and Protestant) were called to do by our Lord. However, because you are on the receiving end of all these individuals you become frustrated and apparently no longer feel safe. Then there’s the fact that there are over 1 billion Catholics in the world and of course with that amount of people there are going to be some who are more “pushy” than others. However, it’s hardly a valid reason to mistrust Catholics as a whole.

I’m here to learn for the purpose of understanding (not conversion), and to help anyone who asks me about Judaism. I’m not here to convert to another religion OR to convert Gentiles to Judaism.

I can understand that, but I’m afraid that there will always be those well intentioned people that will pop up from time to time and try to evangelize you. Don’t be angered or insulted by it. It’s what we are all called to do.

 

[HashemEchad]

Although Protestant fundamentalists have also tried to proselytize me, I never felt threatened by them, perhaps because there is no historical baggage between them and the Jewish people.

But with the Catholic religion, there is quite a bit. Just as some Christians dislike Jews because some Jews persecuted the first Christians, there are Jews who feel distrustful with Catholics because their church’'s members once murdered us for not joining their religion. Judaism is a religion of history, and we have long memories, which we try to learn from.

My own mother’s family originated with Jews in Spain who were told to either become Catholic or be expelled; they chose expulsion, and went to Italy. When the Spanish Inquisition caught up with them there too, they gave up, converted externally, but kept being Jewish in secret. So even from my own family’s history, I have reason to not be very trustful of a church that once did this.

 

[GraceDK]

I have been on this forum for some time now and one thing that keeps striking me is the anger continually being expressed by so many people. I have noticed this quite often among those who hold very rigid beliefs, whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Islamic or atheist. Usually it seems to me that these folks are afraid that their dearly held beliefs may not be as rock solid as they would like them to be? On the other hand, those who admit to not knowing all the answers and that not everything is black and white and leave some wiggle room, tend to be kindlier and gentler. Anyone else notice this?

Yeah I have noticed it… its human behaviour though… not confined to a special creed.

Also the relativists have the tendency… I know it because I live in a society of relativists and secularistic world views (-“we create whats right and wrong”)… they say that they are tolerant but they are only tolerant as long as people agree with them… if they see a Christian (especially Christians make them angry and its politically correct to mock the Christians) or any one who is serious about a value system that has an inherent criticism of their own they get offended. They call the others agressive and intolerant and full of hate… but in fact they are themselves the most agressive … they will ridicule the belief of others with extreme harshness and in the same breath say they do it in the name of freedom and tolerance… its the same in all of the big atheistic ideologies such as communism and nazism etc.
Many will tolerate all kinds of sick ideas and behaviours but they will never tolerate a man who tells them there is something which is holy and that the human being is made to be a person with dignity. Why angry? Because humans dont like the truth… they want to be free to act like animals under the pretext that there is no absolute moral values. Of course they get angry when someone says “Party is over”.

That’s my experience.

 

[GraceDK]

Although Protestant fundamentalists have also tried to proselytize me, I never felt threatened by them, perhaps because there is no historical baggage between them and the Jewish people.

I dont know if I should call your remarks hilarious, tragic or plain ignorant. I think I choose the last.
Its known among everyone here that Luther, the founder of Protestantism had a very strained relationship to the Jewish people. His writings contain some of the first written anti-semitic sentences in modern time. However, on his death bed he said that Jews must be treated with dignity and that we must pray for them.

Let me ask you something… its apparent that you think that all Christian churches, inspite of their numerous martyrs, did not do enough during Nazism to help the Jews… But do you regard nazism as a christian ideology, or will you, in line with historians, recognize that Hitler loathed Christianity?

However back to Luther… Luther lived many centuries ago and you seem to have stared your self half blind on the middle ages in stead of being concerned about what is going on today in a world where you may have a chance of changing things to the better if you get your head out of the bush.
Leave the old things in the past - at least until you have take a thorough look at your self and removed the plank from your own eyes - and let the Lord be the judge of those who harmed your ancestors. Why dont you set Christians and Jews alike free today to live in peace instead of constantly reminding everyone what the bad, bad Catholics did some hundred years ago…?You say you are here in an errand of peace and understanding, but you never seem to actually be…

 

[MelanieAnne]

Perpetually angry people are unhappy people. When they lash out, it’s not about what they’re lashing out about, it’s about their own pain.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I originally found this board via a Google search. I was trying to get answers to some questions I had about old Holy Week legends my late mother had told me about (she died this past March).

Forums are not a very efficient means of fact finding. The purpose of forums is conversation.

I got online to research it, and the search led me here.

And you keep coming back… I’m here to learn for the purpose of understanding (not conversion), and to help anyone who asks me about Judaism. I’m not here to convert to another religion OR to convert Gentiles to Judaism.Usually if a person is interested in a religion, they will go to that religion’s website. I would not go to a Baptist website to learn about Judaism!

triumphantly assert, “God has abandoned your people!”

post links to neoNazi and antisemitic websites, as a way of “showing how the Jews really are”;

and I could go on and on.

Seriously? That’s against CAF rules. Could you provide a link?

But it can be very annoying and time-consuming, when you come to a forum for one thing, and get bogged down with many long, protracted debates that go nowhere, because each side’s mind is already made up.

fo·rum /–noun, plural fo·rums, ***2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion.
3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. ***
dictionary.reference.com/browse/forum

Hence the name Catholic Answers FORUM

The only truly good thing to come out of my time here is that I have been PMed by several Catholics who are interested in Judaism (some are seeking to learn more to enrich their own faith; others, because they do not feel fulfilled by Catholicism and think Judaism is the next logical step). I was also contacted by one person who was a Jew by birth, had become Catholic, but wants to return to Judaism. So I feel my time here has not been a total waste, and in fact, until all those things happened, I was wondering why God would lead me here: now I know.

So you justify your presence here because you helped people convert/revert to Judaism.

“Preach alway, use words only when necessary.” St. Francis of Assisi.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Although Protestant fundamentalists have also tried to proselytize me, I never felt threatened by them, perhaps because there is no historical baggage between them and the Jewish people.

But with the Catholic religion, there is quite a bit. Just as some Christians dislike Jews because some Jews persecuted the first Christians, there are Jews who feel distrustful with Catholics because their church’'s members once murdered us for not joining their religion. Judaism is a religion of history, and we have long memories, which we try to learn from.

My own mother’s family originated with Jews in Spain who were told to either become Catholic or be expelled; they chose expulsion, and went to Italy. When the Spanish Inquisition caught up with them there too, they gave up, converted externally, but kept being Jewish in secret. So even from my own family’s history, I have reason to not be very trustful of a church that once did this.

Hashem

I do sympathize with your history. catholics also have a history of being killed and mistreated by many because of their faith. until this day we are condenmed and made funny of by others so called christians you know chick tracks type of thing. called whore of babylon and many others.

catholics never meant to kill any jews. they were to defend the jews and christians who were being killed by muslims at the time. it just happened that some jews were killed too. the CC has asked forgiveness for that.

i welcome you in this forum always. stay as long as you want to.

it is a pleasure to have you here i know we can learn much from each other.

Peace be onto you.

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

 

[HashemEchad]

I dont know if I should call your remarks hilarious, tragic or plain ignorant. I think I choose the last.
Its known among everyone here that Luther, the founder of Protestantism had a very strained relationship to the Jewish people. His writings contain some of the first written anti-semitic sentences in modern time. However, on his death bed he said that Jews must be treated with dignity and that we must pray for them.

Let me ask you something… its apparent that you think that all Christian churches, inspite of their numerous martyrs, did not do enough during Nazism to help the Jews… But do you regard nazism as a christian ideology, or will you, in line with historians, recognize that Hitler loathed Christianity?

However back to Luther… Luther lived many centuries ago and you seem to have stared your self half blind on the middle ages in stead of being concerned about what is going on today in a world where you may have a chance of changing things to the better if you get your head out of the bush.
Leave the old things in the past - at least until you have take a thorough look at your self and removed the plank from your own eyes - and let the Lord be the judge of those who harmed your ancestors. Why dont you set Christians and Jews alike free today to live in peace instead of constantly reminding everyone what the bad, bad Catholics did some hundred years ago…?You say you are here in an errand of peace and understanding, but you never seem to actually be…

GraceDK, I hope you realize that Protestant fundamentalists and Martin Luther have very little in common. I was referring to Protestant fundamentalists as being people that Jews have no historical baggage with, not Lutherans.

I know full well that Luther hated the Jews when they refused to join his new denomination. I have read, “The Jews and their Lies”. I HAD to read almost everything Luther wrote at one point, because I used to work for Fortress Press (now defunct), which was the publishing arm of the Lutheran Church in America. So you really don’t need to tell me about Luther!

As for the Nazis, I wrote an article years ago, showing the pagan roots of the SS. Hitler and Himmler wanted to de-christianize the German people, because Hitler felt Christianity turned Aryans into “weaklings”. He felt Christianity was a Jewish “plot” as well, to bring the Aryan people down. While there were Nazis who were practicing Christians, the root intention of the NS movement was to do away with Christianity as well as Judaism. So you don’t need to teach me about that either.

I fully recognize that some Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) did rescue Jews during the Second World War. I know of the cases of Corrie Ten Boom, the Protestant evangelical village of Le Chambon, Pastor Martin Niemoeller, Padre Ruffino of Assisi, and I even know of Gino Bartali, the Tour de France champion cyclist (a very religious Catholic), who volunteered as a courier to transport false identity papers to rescue the Jews of Italy (he hid them in the post of his bike seat)!

I recognize, and am thankful to the many Christians who rescued Jews. I just feel that we as Jews do not need to feel indebted to the point of surrendering our very souls because of it.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hashem

I do sympathize with your history. catholics also have a history of being killed and mistreated by many because of their faith. until this day we are condenmed and made funny of by others so called christians you know chick tracks type of thing. called whore of babylon and many others.

catholics never meant to kill any jews. they were to defend the jews and christians who were being killed by muslims at the time. it just happened that some jews were killed too. the CC has asked forgiveness for that.

i welcome you in this forum always. stay as long as you want to.

it is a pleasure to have you here i know we can learn much from each other.

Peace be onto you.

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

Thanks for your post, I do appreciate it.

And yes, I know well that Catholics have also been viciously persecuted. I know of many cases, such as the wholesale massacre of Catholics at Drogheda in Ireland, by Cromwell. Your people have also suffered tremendously.

I know that when my ancestors first came to the USA, we were harassed by the Protestant ruling majority, and so were Catholics! So really, we should stick together in a sense.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thanks for your post, I do appreciate it.

And yes, I know well that Catholics have also been viciously persecuted. I know of many cases, such as the wholesale massacre of Catholics at Drogheda in Ireland, by Cromwell. Your people have also suffered tremendously.

I know that when my ancestors first came to the USA, we were harassed by the Protestant ruling majority, and so were Catholics! So really, we should stick together in a sense.

Amen to that!