Why are Jews at the 'Holocaust denial' conference?

[Richardols]

I also believe that as soon as Iran has a nuclear bomb or missile, they will use it against Israel.

Think about it. Would Iran use the first nuke they develop against a country that can retaliate many times over in kind? I don’t think that the Iranian leadership has gone mad.

Radical Islam does not care how many innocent people they kill, or how many of their own are killed.

You may well be right, but I don’t see Iran as radical Islam. Yes, they’ll finance the insurgents, but they’re not sending their own people to join the fight.

The sooner the whole bunch are wiped out, the better.

You’ll have a long wait. Even the U.S. Army doesn’t think that it can defeat the insurgents as such.

 

[b_justb]

Why do you use quotes when you are misquoting me?

My questions are to point out that freedom does not mean the freedom to lie. You can misuse that freedom too. If you are purposefully preaching lies to promote hate are you not guilty of crimes? Slander? Libel? Are these not applicable? Is there no responsibility to historical accuracy?

Is it suddenly okay to lie because you have the freedom of speech? It is not what goes in a man’s mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of it.

Free speech has been used to defend KKK and hate groups and worst of all pornography which causes mass wretched degradation of people dehumanizing them.

Free speech gave us this gem: A woman’s right to choose.

Touting free speech as an open ended good seems horrifically vile to me. Truth is what is good which is an objective value.

My quoted phrase did not say

MichaelTDoyle:

free speach cannot trump truth

So, I did not misquote you. The quotation marks were used to denote the argument or idea in my post.

The right to free speech has been used in all sorts of things correctly or incorrectly depending on how you view any issue, except for the abortion issue. The SCOTUS cited the 14th amendment not the first in their upholding of Roe v. Wade.

Whether a thing is OK or not generally doesn’t come up in legal matters. Is it OK to divorce? As Catholics we say no, but that doesn’t enter into it in case law. Legalities and moralities often do not match up.

When society begins to stifle speech then the ones that stifle run the risk of being stifled.

I have had long drawn out heated debates on and away from CAF about the issue of free speech. I hold to a very liberal view of free speech, because when free speech is trampled on, my Christian liberty just might be next. I do not suggest that all speech is acceptable, or without consequence. But for the vast majority of cases, the acceptability of speech should not be determined by the government. If a person doesn’t approve of anothers speech, he has the right to say so and offer his argument as to why. That’s the point: To promote an open environment to say, defend, and refute ideas.

 

[M-Dent]

Think about it. Would Iran use the first nuke they develop against a country that can retaliate many times over in kind?

Richard, first off, why not take Mahmoud at his word? He reiterated today the 'Zionist regime will soon be ‘wiped out’. The Shahab-3’s. can do a bit of damage. Especially with a dangerous payload. Add that with the murderous Hezbollah lot delivering a device (And more rockets. This time w/ chemical weapons) up close and personally. Who knows they may even target the Dimona nuclear facility with suicide bombers at some point.

This isn’t a question of “why” would Iran attack Israel - it seems more reasonable to question when.

 

[Karin]

There are people in prison for disputing aspects of the “holocaust”.
David Irving, who I have met and is a brilliant and facinating speaker is sitting in an Austrian prison for making a speech disputing holocaust claims.
it is just outragious that people can be sent to prison for this. makes me think that there is something to hide.

Ernst Zundel
David Irving
Gemar Rudolf

Why would the West seek to imprison someone who tells lies? you simply refute them with facts. When you seek to SILENCE people you bring about tyranny. Truth doesn’t need to be protected in this way, only lies.

Actually…Austria along with Germany have very strong anti-semitism laws…sepaking against the holocaust will likely land you in jail

 

[Karin]

All the Austrian prison example proves is that Austria doesn’t have as open and liberal free speech laws as the U.S. does. Neither does Canada.

actually our speech laws are pretty liberal unless the speech involves the holocaust and the jews…than you have to keep your trap shut

 

[MikeWM]

No thank you. I personally know 2 survivors of Auschwitz, one a Jew the other a Czechoslovakian Catholic. I will take their word for what happened there.

Indeed - my grandfather helped liberate one of the concentration camps, though understandably he wasn’t keen to go into details. Holocaust deniers disgust me, frankly. Even so, they shouldn’t be thrown in prison for it.

Mike

 

[rpp]

Well there are real questions that are not addressed. There is the real probability that gas chambers did not exist. The gas chambers at Auschwitz have been in dispute. A Jew named David Cole made a trip there and made some compelling points that the building was not a gas chamber but a simple building that was altered after the war by the Communists in 1948. There were many questions he posed to the curator of the Auschwitz museum that he could not answer.
Then there is the WW2 horrors commited by the communists that get deep-sixed like the hundereds of thousands of ethnic Germans who were killed in the exact same way that the Jews constantly beat the drum about themselves. Germans were sent to concentration camps, sent to Siberia, worked to death. Tito destroyed all German presence in Yugoslavia. Women and children were starved to death. Whole cultures disappeared.
pannoniapress.com/History.html
It’s the burying of these facts while exaggerating others that concerns me.

There are no compelling arguments in dispute. My father faought in WWII in europe and was there in 1945 and saw with his own eyes what was going on.

To deny this is evil! To even suggest this is sick! What my father saw there still gives him nightmares 60 years later.

Just because some of the other horrific acts during the war have not gotten the attention that the 8 year long systematic murder of Jews and other ethinic gets does not mean than it did not happen.

STOP SPREADING LIES! Holocaust denial does not deserve a forum, including this forum. Holocaust deniers do not deserve freedom. All freedoms have limits, including speech. Holocause denial crosses that. Just look at what denying a holocaust in Turkey has caused.

 

[DShreffler]

There are no compelling arguments in dispute. My father faought in WWII in europe and was there in 1945 and saw with his own eyes what was going on.

To deny this is evil! To even suggest this is sick! What my father saw there still gives him nightmares 60 years later.

Just because some of the other horrific acts during the war have not gotten the attention that the 8 year long systematic murder of Jews and other ethinic gets does not mean than it did not happen.

STOP SPREADING LIES! Holocaust denial does not deserve a forum, including this forum. Holocaust deniers do not deserve freedom. All freedoms have limits, including speech. Holocause denial crosses that. Just look at what denying a holocaust in Turkey has caused.

What would you like to do to those pesky “Holocause deniers”?

 

[rpp]

What would you like to do to those pesky “Holocause deniers”?

I think Austria has the right idea.

 

[Karin]

I think Austria has the right idea.

they may have the right idea, but it is done out of **guilt **in their role during the war

 

[rpp]

they may have the right idea, but it is done out of **guilt **in their role during the war

Not entirely true. This was in response to neo-Nazi political movements to which holocaust denial is inextricably linked.

You cannot deny the holocaust in Germany or France either. France was not a (willing) holocaust participant.

 

[Karin]

Not entirely true. This was in response to neo-Nazi political movements to which holocaust denial is inextricably linked.

You cannot deny the holocaust in Germany or France either. France was not a (willing) holocaust participant.

This is true also…

 

[gilliam]

Los Angeles Times editorial this morning: "Holocaust denial can be dangerous.

Iran’s two-day conference for revisionists can’t be shrugged off given its quest for nuclear weapons.

 

[Karianne]

This is such an interesting topic and a very touchy one too. I think it’s good to discuss on a world wide level.

I am so personally conflicted when it comes to the modern day nation of Israel. It is a democratic state in an area that has few, so I want to support them. Yet, Israel will not allow Christians to become citizens, even if they have Jewish ancestry. How free is that society really? And how can I support a Nation that has basically outlawed Christianity to her citizens? The Church did not recognize Israel as a State for about 50 years because the theology of the modern State of Israel is in conflict with Church teachings.

No matter what one thinks of how Israel came to be, if the State of Israel were to “be totally and peacefully dissolved" what would happen to the Jewish citizens there now? I doubt they would be allowed to remain in a place they have come to call their Nation. So where would these people go? What would happen to them? What nation would take them in? I think the answer would be no one would and I think that would be very, very bad.

I have an aunt and an uncle that live in Jerusalem. Uncle goes out every morning to roof of the Upper Room to pray as the sun comes up (Site is also the tomb of David). He tells me about how public prayer is just very common place. How people are free to express themselves freely in any faith tradition.

I am just unsure.

My nephew’s mother is Christian and his father is Jewish and he would not be welcomed in Israel.
It’s the loss to Israel, but still, that annoys me.

 

[MikeWM]

Iran’s two-day conference for revisionists can’t be shrugged off given its quest for nuclear weapons.

Why does that follow? We’ve already worked out that they’re still going to be opposed to Israel, whether the ‘result’ of their stupid ‘conference’ is that the Holocaust happened or not.

Mike

 

[gilliam]

Related thread:

Disclosure: Arafat Paid Off Neturei Karta Leader

 

[gilliam]

Why does that follow? We’ve already worked out that they’re still going to be opposed to Israel, whether the ‘result’ of their stupid ‘conference’ is that the Holocaust happened or not.

Mike

I don’t know. Just citing some news out today. Here is another article saying Iran is promoting genocide

Move to bring genocide case against Ahmadinejad as Iran president repeats call to wipe out Israel

**Robert Tait in Tehran, Ed Pilkington in New York
Wednesday December 13, 2006
**The Guardian

…Mr Bolton will be joined in tomorrow’s launch of the legal action against Mr Ahmadinejad by a Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz, and the former Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dore Gold, together with experts from the US, Canada and Israel. A suit will be lodged with the international court of justice at The Hague, which will decide whether to hear the action. The panel said the Iranian president was guilty of inciting genocide “by making numerous threats against the United States, calling for the destruction of Israel and instigating discrimination against Christians and Jews”. His words violate a 1948 UN genocide convention, to which Iran is a signatory, they said.
guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,1970659,00.html

 

[fin]

. Yet, Israel will not allow Christians to become citizens, even if they have Jewish ancestry. How free is that society really? And how can I support a Nation that has basically outlawed Christianity to her citizens?

Really? wow, i didn’t know that. but i thought there are Christians living there. if it’s not allowed, then how come they are there?

 

[Karin]

Really? wow, i didn’t know that. but i thought there are Christians living there. if it’s not allowed, then how come they are there?

you can live in a country and not hold citizenship of that country…just look at all of the green card holders in this country…

 

[gilliam]

Yet, Israel will not allow Christians to become citizens, even if they have Jewish ancestry. How free is that society really? .

I’m not sure that is right.

From Answers.com:

The majority of Arab citizens of Israel are Sunni Muslims, but there are also large numbers of Druze (120,000) and Christian (180,000) Arabs, as well.

answers.com/topic/arab-citizens-of-israel

from Wikipedia

Christian Arabs
See also: Palestinian Christian Christian Arabs comprise about 9% of the Arab population in Israel, and reside mostly in the north. Nazareth has the largest Christian Arab population.

Some Christian Arabs, like their Muslim and Druze counterparts, are active in Israeli politics and civil life. The only non-Jewish Arab judge to receive a permanent appointment to preside over Israel’s Supreme Court is a Christian Arab, Salim Jubran.

Abuna Elias Chacour is a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen, currently the Archbishop of Galilee, of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. With his family he was forced from their home in Kafr Bir’im in Galilee in 1948. The villagers of Kafr Bir’im are still fighting for the right to return.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Christian_Arabs