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meltzerboy2
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I’m essentially a Reform Jew with traces of Conservative as well. I was brought up in a Conservative home and attended an Orthodox synagogue as a child. So I am familiar with all three traditions.
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Michael16
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Cool, @meltzerboy2. I’ve always been fascinated with Judaism myself; including a few years reading up on as much Kabbalah as I could.
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meltzerboy2
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Good for you. I have never attempted Kabbalah, not yet anyway. Maybe it’s time I take a look. I obviously don’t believe there is anything wrong with learning about other religions so long as you have a firm foundation in your own.
I hope your niece is fully informed of what she may be getting into before she decides to convert, and I hope it’s for the right reasons.
I hope your niece is fully informed of what she may be getting into before she decides to convert, and I hope it’s for the right reasons.
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Michael16
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I hope so too, @meltzerboy2. Thanks.
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1ke
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That seems to be a trend around here too. They don’t even come to our door anymore. A few days ago we got a package in the mail from a JW full of videos and literature.
Well, Catholic tracts, a rosary, a miraculous medal, a scapular, and a Divine Mercy image are all headed back to her in the mail tomorrow.
Well, Catholic tracts, a rosary, a miraculous medal, a scapular, and a Divine Mercy image are all headed back to her in the mail tomorrow.
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Michael16
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Hahahaha, @1ke! 
Maybe I should tell you guys the story of how I took down an ELCA faith formation director over Confirmation.
Maybe I should tell you guys the story of how I took down an ELCA faith formation director over Confirmation.
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1ke
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And then I’ll tell you about the time I had a middle seat on the plane in the middle of a Baptist Church group going to Mexico to save the Catholics.
By the end of the flight the poor guy next to me didn’t know what to make of his bible that had every verse in 1 Peter highlighted except 3:21-22. “Huh…”. At least he was honest enough to admit it appeared his pastor had skipped those on purpose. He had a lot to think about after I got off the flight.
By the end of the flight the poor guy next to me didn’t know what to make of his bible that had every verse in 1 Peter highlighted except 3:21-22. “Huh…”. At least he was honest enough to admit it appeared his pastor had skipped those on purpose. He had a lot to think about after I got off the flight.
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whichwaytogo47
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So does that mean they believe in utiliarian ethics - aka do what benefits the most people rather than what might benefit an individual the most?
LOL. Having been a Catholic in a non-denominational church, it’s not only that they bash uninformed Catholics, but cannot hold to scrutiny when a Catholic knows their Bible well.
Their weakest argument is some that hold they have a relationship with God while Catholics do not.
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Michael16
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That’s hilarious, @1ke!
Basically, the ELCA Lady is a lapsed Catholic and she was going over how their church doesn’t do Confirmation but an “ affirmation “. I stuck to my guns telling her it’s about professing faith and that it’s the Sacrament of Faith.
At the end of the discussion; all she could say was: “ That’s what’s in the Lutheran Book of Worship. “
Basically, the ELCA Lady is a lapsed Catholic and she was going over how their church doesn’t do Confirmation but an “ affirmation “. I stuck to my guns telling her it’s about professing faith and that it’s the Sacrament of Faith.
At the end of the discussion; all she could say was: “ That’s what’s in the Lutheran Book of Worship. “
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Michael16
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That’s so true, @whichwaytogo47!
When a Protestant comes up against a well informed Catholic who knows their Bible and Catechism; it’s pretty simple to take them down.
When a Protestant comes up against a well informed Catholic who knows their Bible and Catechism; it’s pretty simple to take them down.
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whichwaytogo47
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Yes, that’s true. They’re hoping that a Catholic will not have a solid knowledge of the Catholic faith and especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation. That’s why when a Catholic gets baptized, they are very excited as it’s someone they perceive to have converted from the Catholic faith. In reality, that person is still a Catholic, albeit not likely a practicing Catholic. That Catholic likely had something they resented about the Church not realizing that the purpose of going to Church is to be with God and the priest is acting in the person of Christ. Instead of leaving their church, the leave the church altogether.
There is definitely a difference in perception. They do believe the Bible is infallible but they have differences in what they perceive as literal and what they perceive as figurative language.
They don’t believe that baptism saves you as they don’t take the being born of the water and the spirit literally. They believe instead that baptism is a public declaration that you gave your life to Jesus and that baptism is unnecessary to go to heaven - giving your heart to Jesus means you never have to worry about your sins again. In all fairness, most Protestants don’t take that as a license to keep sinning and many would be capable of making a perfect contrition, but at least in theory, you cannot lose your salvation or if you had “lost” your salvation, it was because you were never saved in the 1st place. They do have a relationship with Jesus, but they don’t get to enjoy the fullness of his presence in Mass with the Eucharist. Some of the lure is the sermons especially pastors with strong oratory skills. The sermons do tend to be biblical, though the church services provided don’t match the completeness found at the mass, including the 7 missing books of the deuterocanonical and the Eucharist.
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Michael16
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That’s the problem with a lot of Protestants, @whichwaytogo47.
They read the Bible, but not holistically. They go over exact wording, while ignoring what’s going on in the text; and argue ad nauseam.
That’s something I’ve noticed in my apologetics with them.
They read the Bible, but not holistically. They go over exact wording, while ignoring what’s going on in the text; and argue ad nauseam.
That’s something I’ve noticed in my apologetics with them.
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whichwaytogo47
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Thanks for the insight. I had a hard time interpreting that.
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Michael16
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Not a problem, @whichwaytogo47. I debated a LCMS deacon in training over justification by faith in Romans.
He challenged me to read Romans and harmonize it. I did both.
After days of arguing on the thread, including the Lutheran distinction between justification and sanctification and faith apart from works of the law vs apart from works; and eventually it boiled down to him grammatically diagramming verses in Romans 6 and going into a linguistic analysis of the original Greek; saying that it’s obvious that Saint Paul “ taught “ faith alone.
When he went to the Greek; I finally understood. If Saint Paul was teaching this, and Romans I assume was written in Koine Greek to a native Greek speaking audience; then those same native Greek speakers would’ve picked up on it straight away.
As I told him; if that were the case; the Church for 1,500 years either made a huge mistake in reading comprehension or a massive conspiracy to hide the truth.
He hasn’t debated me since.
He challenged me to read Romans and harmonize it. I did both.
After days of arguing on the thread, including the Lutheran distinction between justification and sanctification and faith apart from works of the law vs apart from works; and eventually it boiled down to him grammatically diagramming verses in Romans 6 and going into a linguistic analysis of the original Greek; saying that it’s obvious that Saint Paul “ taught “ faith alone.
When he went to the Greek; I finally understood. If Saint Paul was teaching this, and Romans I assume was written in Koine Greek to a native Greek speaking audience; then those same native Greek speakers would’ve picked up on it straight away.
As I told him; if that were the case; the Church for 1,500 years either made a huge mistake in reading comprehension or a massive conspiracy to hide the truth.
He hasn’t debated me since.
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dochawk
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it’s worse than that–they use the exact wording of a translated text!
I do get a kick out of it, though, when they pull out Websters to prove what a word means . . .
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Michael16
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Hahahaha, @dochawk. It’s pretty funny when they do that. One of my favorite things that they do is when you refute a Scripture passage they use; they go straight to another one and so on ad nauseam. They love doing end arounds when you stop them cold.
I hold my ground as they keep coming on at me. It’s kind of like that scene in the Matrix where Neo is holding off Agent Smith one handed.
I hold my ground as they keep coming on at me. It’s kind of like that scene in the Matrix where Neo is holding off Agent Smith one handed.
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whichwaytogo47
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Depends on the translation. The ESV and KJB is a pretty good translation as is the Catholic Douray Rheims Bible, the RSV, or the NAB. I don’t trust the more dynamic translations. I think the NIV and NLT are dynamic translations but I could be wrong.
I don’t know if the CPDV is a reliable Catholic Bible or if to just stick with the RSV EWTN one, the NAB, or the Douray Rheims.
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Michael16
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@whichwaytogo47.I might check that out. I’ve seen NIVs. They look pretty close to ours.
My Bible’s a RSV-CE.
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whichwaytogo47
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Let me know what you think. I like the RSV-CE.
I don’t know what to make of the NIV, NRSV, or the NABRE because I think some of our modern prejudices and need for gender neutrality damage these texts.
I don’t know what to make of the NIV, NRSV, or the NABRE because I think some of our modern prejudices and need for gender neutrality damage these texts.
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Michael16
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Can do, @whichwaytogo47.
What are some of your favorite apologetics war stories?
What are some of your favorite apologetics war stories?
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