Why are many American Catholics prejudiced against Mexican Catholics?

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

On the Feast of Epiphany, USCCB Chairmen launch new JFI website, postcard campaign for immigration reform
January 6, 2010

On January 6th, Bishop John Wester of Salt Lake City, chairman of the USCCB Committee on Migration, and Bishop Howard Hubbard of Albany, chairman of the USCCB International Policy Committee, launched a new Justice for Immigrants (JFI) website and a new postcard campaign for Catholics. During a telephonic press event, the two chairmen outlined plans by the Catholic Church to work to enact comprehensive immigration reform in 2010.

The site is at.
justiceforimmigrants.org/

You can get your Parish kits to help the Bishops in the reform at:
justiceforimmigrants.org/link-to-site.html

Another great site were Catholics are supporting immigration reform can be found at:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2005_99/rc_pc_migrants_pom99_inter-relig-endorsing.html

The Vatican is endorsing the USCCB and 37 other National organizations in the pursuit of changes. The Vatican writes “Our diverse faith traditions teach us to welcome our brothers and sisters with love and compassion.”

The Hebrew Bible tells us: “The strangers who sojourn with you shall be to you as the natives among you, and you shall love them as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Leviticus 19:33-34). In the New Testament, Jesus tells us to welcome the stranger (cf. Matthew 25:35), for “what you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me” (Matthew 25:40). The Qur’an tells us that we should “serve God…and do good to…orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer that you meet, [and those who have nothing]” (4:36).

The Vatican agrees with the right of the US to enforce borders laws but asks for reforms of an unworkable system that needs to care for those caught up in trying to provide a better life for their families.

It is amazing the more I read Catholic Answers and look at Catholic Authorities the more I find compassion…

 

[donr]

On the Feast of Epiphany, USCCB Chairmen launch new JFI website, postcard campaign for immigration reform
January 6, 2010

On January 6th, Bishop John Wester of Salt Lake City, chairman of the USCCB Committee on Migration, and Bishop Howard Hubbard of Albany, chairman of the USCCB International Policy Committee, launched a new Justice for Immigrants (JFI) website and a new postcard campaign for Catholics. During a telephonic press event, the two chairmen outlined plans by the Catholic Church to work to enact comprehensive immigration reform in 2010.

The site is at.
justiceforimmigrants.org/

You can get your Parish kits to help the Bishops in the reform at:
justiceforimmigrants.org/link-to-site.html

Another great site were Catholics are supporting immigration reform can be found at:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2005_99/rc_pc_migrants_pom99_inter-relig-endorsing.html

The Vatican is endorsing the USCCB and 37 other National organizations in the pursuit of changes. The Vatican writes “Our diverse faith traditions teach us to welcome our brothers and sisters with love and compassion.”

The Hebrew Bible tells us: “The strangers who sojourn with you shall be to you as the natives among you, and you shall love them as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Leviticus 19:33-34). In the New Testament, Jesus tells us to welcome the stranger (cf. Matthew 25:35), for “what you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me” (Matthew 25:40). The Qur’an tells us that we should “serve God…and do good to…orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer that you meet, [and those who have nothing]” (4:36).

The Vatican agrees with the right of the US to enforce borders laws but asks for reforms of an unworkable system that needs to care for those caught up in trying to provide a better life for their families.

It is amazing the more I read Catholic Answers and look at Catholic Authorities the more I find compassion…

I am sorry, but from a distance comprehensive immigration reform and health care for all sounds like a great idea. it would be nice, every one living in some kind of utopia. Unfortunately it is extremely unrealistic.

This County is set up NOT to be like other countries. As a matter of fact other countries have even more strict immigration laws than we do. If you just open the borders and let anyone in, you will have an explosion of disease, crime and social degradation. The same goes for health care. Right now the health care system in the US is the best in the world because of competition. Are both of these in need of reform… absolutely. However just creating laws to simply let people in or provide free health care for all is a grave mistake. Care needs to be taken to ensure that what has made this Country great stays in tact and does not become the wrong headed ideals of Europe or or brothers and sisters to the North. I personally believe that there is a great opportunity for a lot of people to come into this great Country and that should be encouraged. However, who comes in needs to be closely watched. We can not simply open the doors and let anyone in. The Bishops and the Vatican are correct in stating that all life is sacred and that all peoples are our brothers and sisters. The Catholic Church has no boundaries nor should it. The USA has a boundary and needs to be enforced from all foreign enemies. We need to discern who is an enemy or criminal and who is a friend. Shots need to be given in order to protect the masses against disease (TB for example). History of the Country needs to be learned and a common language should be spoken so that the masses can communicate with one another. Once all of these are provided for, let 'em in. Until then keep them out for yours and my safety. I don’t care about their race, color or creed. Its should be done to all seeking refuge in this Country. I agree that there is a rich Catholic tradition in the Mexican population and that it might be a benefit to our Catholic brothers and sisters in the US. but I also know that in AZ the Mexican women are very religious, the men are not. Most of the time the boys turn out to be just like their fathers and the girls can go either way. In northern CA were I now live there was a young man arrested for robbery and vandalism with a tattoo of the Blessed Virgin Mary on his shoulder and a cross on his arm. What is that all about!! I know we are all sinners and I have done some bad things in my life as well but I believe that a lot of the Mexican culture is based on superstition rather than pure devotion. Of Course I also know some very dedicated Catholic men, women and children.

My point is that laws are laws, if you want to make changes to the law contact your legislator and make suggestions for a good law that will benefit this Country as well as anyone who would like to join OUR society. READ THE BILLS. do not take the medias word for anything. Make sure health care is fair for all including the businesses that provide it.

To your point on a previous post about babies being born in alleys… I have to tell you that in this Country doctors and hospitals have to follow the Hippocratic oath. If you need care it will be provided. That is a fact. The health care system though is broken and needs to be fixed we can all agree on that. Lets just do it the right way.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

I am sorry, but from a distance comprehensive immigration reform and health care for all sounds like a great idea. it would be nice, every one living in some kind of utopia. Unfortunately it is extremely unrealistic.

I agree with you…

This County is set up NOT to be like other countries. As a matter of fact other countries have even more strict immigration laws than we do. If you just open the borders and let anyone in, you will have an explosion of disease, crime and social degradation. The same goes for health care. Right now the health care system in the US is the best in the world because of competition. Are both of these in need of reform… absolutely. However just creating laws to simply let people in or provide free health care for all is a grave mistake. .

We can not currently do it with the limitations under the current system, nor with the budget the way that it is, at least not for everyone.The above being said I think that we could have preventative medicine for those under 18.

I think if would likely free up free up some of our ER’s and acutally save money for those that we care for, but I am also that withoug some form of border protections or review of the border it would likely make immigrations issues far worse, although current birth rates in South America show a similiar trend with regards to the culture of death and in a few years extra labor may not exist.

In a book titled “The Next 100 Years” by George Friedman, Founder and CEO of STRATFOR, an intelligence and forcasting company." We will likely be paying vast sums to entice workers here in the late 2020’s and 2030’s.

We are not the only country pushing the concept of contraception and abortion, Mexico is close behind and thier birthrates are dramatically falling.

Care needs to be taken to ensure that what has made this Country great stays in tact and does not become the wrong headed ideals of Europe or or brothers and sisters to the North. I personally believe that there is a great opportunity for a lot of people to come into this great Country and that should be encouraged. However, who comes in needs to be closely watched. We can not simply open the doors and let anyone in.

I agree…but unfortunately most of the West’s birthrates are demanding for foreign labor…The problems in Europe are two fold, and much greater compaired to ours. Not only a tax on resources, but also pushing a different culture and religion. Many Muslims are there now and soon parts of Christian Europe will no longer be Christian.

The Bishops and the Vatican are correct in stating that all life is sacred and that all peoples are our brothers and sisters. The Catholic Church has no boundaries nor should it. The USA has a boundary and needs to be enforced from all foreign enemies. We need to discern who is an enemy or criminal and who is a friend.

I agree we must defend our borders from enemies, however I am not certain that I would classify immigrants as enemies. They are a burden on our systems, but that might be because we have not figured out a way to bring them into our systems with the exception of using their labor, which we are obviousely doing or they would not come. Supply and demand is a pretty basic fact.

Shots need to be given in order to protect the masses against disease (TB for example). History of the Country needs to be learned and a common language should be spoken so that the masses can communicate with one another. Once all of these are provided for, let 'em in. Until then keep them out for yours and my safety. I don’t care about their race, color or creed. Its should be done to all seeking refuge in this Country.

We used to have Ellis Island on the East Coast and Angel Island on the West Coast to bring in immigrants from Europe, maybe we need to set up a boarder city to do the same. Here isolation areas, shots, work permits and other border controls could be put in place. I am no expert here, but it is a thought.

I agree that there is a rich Catholic tradition in the Mexican population and that it might be a benefit to our Catholic brothers and sisters in the US. but I also know that in AZ the Mexican women are very religious, the men are not. Most of the time the boys turn out to be just like their fathers and the girls can go either way. In northern CA were I now live there was a young man arrested for robbery and vandalism with a tattoo of the Blessed Virgin Mary on his shoulder and a cross on his arm. What is that all about!!

One of the issues that arises with many of the immigrants that currently come to the US is that they are either very well educated looking for big dollars or are very poorly educated looking to eat. For the most part the higher educated people you would never notice. The poor are the ones that typically fit the discription you cite above and although I tend to agree with you they are human beings and usually live in depressed neighborhoods with both parents working minimum paying jobs and thier children end up like most Americans living in the same communities. We benefit from low wages we have to pay them, but the tax we pay is the support of the families and the social stability, or lack thereof, that their children contribute to our already hardest hit inner cities or poor rural communities.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

I know we are all sinners and I have done some bad things in my life as well but I believe that a lot of the Mexican culture is based on superstition rather than pure devotion. Of Course I also know some very dedicated Catholic men, women and children.

As a protestant I never had to worry or even think about your comment above…Sola Scripture and or Sola Fida, but…as a Catholic tradition plays a major role in the Church. Many of the traditions in the Catholic church are different from country to country. I noticed that while I was stationed in Italy they have a tradition of a Christmas Witch, La Befana. As a protestant I thought that was bizarre, but not as weird as burying the dead for a year and then digging them up and the family watching them strip the bones and put them in a mausoleum. One of my employees mother passed before I had arrived and she did not want to have to watch but she did. Still gives me the heebee geebee’s. How would you classify these traditions in line with Catholic traditions you are used to?

My point is that laws are laws, if you want to make changes to the law contact your legislator and make suggestions for a good law that will benefit this Country as well as anyone who would like to join OUR society. READ THE BILLS. do not take the medias word for anything. Make sure health care is fair for all including the businesses that provide it.

I agree, but this forum was titled “Why are American Catholics prejudiced against Mexican Catholics?”, which is true to the extent that I think it relates to immigration. I do not believe, or at least I pray it is not true since I am so new to Catholicism, that American Catholics would be so shallow as to be prejudiced in the faith. I am assuming that it is racial or more pointedly class and immigration status. We can’t do much in one generation to change someones racial prejudices, but maybe their children’s. As far as class goes we are developing STRONG class distinctions now in our country. We fled them coming from Europe, but I guess we just gotta have them, we pay CEO’s huge sum’s as well as our Sports stars and Celebrities. It will only get worse if we allow unbridled Robber Baron’s. I do not like wealth redistribution, but I also do not like dynasties either. Not sure how to fix it and I am sure it will be a huge debate but something needs to be done or the American dream will be gone. Well that would fix the immigration problem anyway.

To your point on a previous post about babies being born in alleys… I have to tell you that in this Country doctors and hospitals have to follow the Hippocratic oath. If you need care it will be provided. That is a fact. The health care system though is broken and needs to be fixed we can all agree on that. Lets just do it the right way.

May use of the back alley was to show a correlation to cry to ending the illegal back alley abortions of the past, with forcing illegals to live in those same allys…In other words we
have determined they are criminals by enacting laws. We could just as well say they are legal again by enacting laws. The fact that laws are in place to not mean they are just and one could be judged for upholding legal, but laws against the Natural law. We punished Nazi’s at the end of WWII. They followed their laws, but their laws were against the natural law. As far as your comment about our doctors following the Hippocratic Oath…they changed it or many of those that take it are hipocrites…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

“…I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.”

This issue of Immigration I think is at the root of the animosity that is felt by some of our Latin American Catholic members. I have seen it in the treatment my wife gets. She is an immigrant from Peru and she has been treated poorly at times when people think she is from Mexico. That being said our Children, for the most part could not be distinguished from any other American and yes we are all called Gringo’s…my children affectionately called so by relatives when we visit. I guess political correctness has not been enacted nor yet enforced in South America as it is here in the states.

In the end I think we probably would agree on most things we have mentioned here, the difference is that I believe that many Americans have no compassion when they want to slam the door. I would prefer to close it slowly, reluctantly, and sad that we cannot do more for children we are leaving in the cold. Our country is blessed, we do not see many children living with a mother on a street corner. We might see a drug mother, by herself, but the children are usually cared for. I just find it odd that some would argue so strongly, so angrily, so mean spirited while they close that door.

I do sense a tone in your thread that is more reflective and kind…compassion in the refusal to provide care, but if we must close that door to these children when Italy does not have to, I think it should be with some tears and not glee.

 

[Renegade]

My two questions for you:

Do you despise all Latinos or just those who enter our country illegally? Can’t tell for sure based on your posts.

 

[Renegade]

Totally in the interest of the truth I have to take issue with the claim that “I didn’t cross over the border, the border crossed over me.” According to my research I found that the majority of people living in Texas during the Texas Revolution were indeed Anglo. “By 1834, it was estimated that over 30,000 Anglos (short for anglophones, people whose first language is English) lived in Texas, compared to only 7,800 Mexican-born citizens.”

This quote comes from here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Revolution and was based on this book: Manchaca, Martha (2001), Recovering History, Constructing Race: The Indian, Black, and White Roots of Mexican Americans, The Joe R. and Teresa Lozano Long Series in Latin American and Latino Art and Culture, Austin, TX: University of Texas Press, ISBN 0292752539

If you study demographic statistics of the state of Texas you will find that the percentage of Hispanic residents has ballooned in the past 50 years primarily due to immigration.

I don’t mean to disparage anyone in any way. I am married, 20 years, to wonderful woman from Panama. I speak Spanish, and have lived and traveled extensively in Latin America. My best friends are Mexican and I love Mexican culture. I am an honest person who is just trying to provide some historical perspective.

My perspective is from an American who saw his neighborhood destroyed by Mexicans. No one of any other races wants to move here. The businesses that crop up have their signs written in Spanish. Gangs run freely through the neighborhood and the police rarely arrest anyone because of all the Latino groups that interfere with law enforcement. Now, as Catholics, are we supposed to welcome this? As Americans, are we supposed to tolerate this?

If you knew that 50% of all snakes were poisonous and a snake was crawling towards you and you had no means of escape but you did have a gun, would you pet the snake or kill it?

 

[rossum]

If you knew that 50% of all snakes were poisonous and a snake was crawling towards you and you had no means of escape but you did have a gun, would you pet the snake or kill it?

If you knew that 50% of all Catholics were criminals and a Catholic was walking towards you and you had no means of escape but you did have a gun, would you pet the Catholic or kill him?

rossum

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I am not saying that all American Catholics are, and I am not saying that those that are have no justification… I understand, some Mexican Catholics are disrespectful, etc. but then again, so are many Americans, as I said in another thread.

I did not expect prejudice in CAF, but now I have learned not to enter into immigraition discussions because some people (me included ) get overexcited and national feelings get hurt.

Kooldood:

Did you know your Question sounds a little like, “So, When did you stop beating your wife?” I mean, are you trying to make people defensive? or, Did you NOT understand that your question would fail to take into account the fact that a LOT of people are irritated at Illegal Immigration, not because MEXICANS are pouring across our border, but because people aren’t obeying our Laws, and our Laws aren’t being enforced? Do you fail to understand that people are upset NOT because MEXICANS are taking their jobs, but because they LOST THEIR JOBS WHEN employers, who aren’t obeying the Law are hiring people they don’t have to pay decent wages to because who have NO rights because they didn’t obey the Laws getting here?

In other words, did you think you might be putting people on the spot who might have a whole lot of reasons for being upset that have NOTHING to do with “disrespecting” Mexicans??

I understand the people who are trying to get into the USA need jobs, etc., but don’t you think we do better for them & their families if we helped Mexico to solve it’s own problems and become a place where people can become prosperous and raise their own families? Rather than continuing to act as Mexico’s “Safety Valve” so the corrupt Central Bureaucracy in Mexico can “keep everything on a low boil”?

And, The Great Unasked Question - What about how the people in Southern Mexico treat the Immigrants trying to pass through from Central and South America? I have friends who’ve “Run the Gauntlet”, and it is a Gauntlet as reported by the LA TIMES in a series a few years ago—
Mexico’s Forgotten Southern Border
cis.org/articles/2002/back702.html
Memo from Mexico - Mexican Police, Marines beating up (Central American) Illegal Aliens in Mexico, by Allan Wall
vdare.com/awall/080409_memo.htm
PRI - Immigrant Shelters in Mexico
theworld.org/2010/02/16/immigrant-shelters-in-mexico/

Kooldood, This really is a complex issue, and it’s a lot more than “just racism”. Try to get to know the Law on Immigration, and get to know that it’s been historically and when. Countries don’t last long when they IGNORE their LAWS.

I agree we need to reform our Immigration System - I thought it was INSANE that Juan & I had to translate all of the forms from Spanish to English (or English to Spanish depending upon recipient country), because the Dept. of Immigration & Naturalization had NO Standardized Translated forms. I thought it was appalling that Juan’s (Juan is a Naturalized Citizen who ran the Gauntlet I described above) son then had to wait 6 years to enter the USA AFTER we submitted his paperwork.

Those are issues that have NOTHING to do with NON-Enforcement of the Laws! But, They have everything to do with making sure the Laws actually work and make sense…

In Christ, Michael

 

[Lycorth]

Those doggone US Bishops Launched a web site against your desires…fooey…
justiceforimmigrants.org/

Should these Catholics know better too?

Yes, they should. Shame on them.

If you knew that 50% of all Catholics were criminals and a Catholic was walking towards you and you had no means of escape but you did have a gun, would you pet the Catholic or kill him?

50% of all Catholics (ie, not Catholics in name only but devout and hence actual Catholics) are not criminals.

Kooldood:

Did you know your Question sounds a little like, “So, When did you stop beating your wife?” I mean, are you trying to make people defensive? or, Did you NOT understand that your question would fail to take into account the fact that a LOT of people are irritated at Illegal Immigration, not because MEXICANS are pouring across our border, but because people aren’t obeying our Laws, and our Laws aren’t being enforced? Do you fail to understand that people are upset NOT because MEXICANS are taking their jobs, but because they LOST THEIR JOBS WHEN employers, who aren’t obeying the Law are hiring people they don’t have to pay decent wages to because who have NO rights because they didn’t obey the Laws getting here?

In other words, did you think you might be putting people on the spot who might have a whole lot of reasons for being upset that have NOTHING to do with “disrespecting” Mexicans??

I understand the people who are trying to get into the USA need jobs, etc., but don’t you think we do better for them & their families if we helped Mexico to solve it’s own problems and become a place where people can become prosperous and raise their own families? Rather than continuing to act as Mexico’s “Safety Valve” so the corrupt Central Bureaucracy in Mexico can “keep everything on a low boil”?

And, The Great Unasked Question - What about how the people in Southern Mexico treat the Immigrants trying to pass through from Central and South America? I have friends who’ve “Run the Gauntlet”, and it is a Gauntlet as reported by the LA TIMES in a series a few years ago—
Mexico’s Forgotten Southern Border
cis.org/articles/2002/back702.html
Memo from Mexico - Mexican Police, Marines beating up (Central American) Illegal Aliens in Mexico, by Allan Wall
vdare.com/awall/080409_memo.htm
PRI - Immigrant Shelters in Mexico
theworld.org/2010/02/16/immigrant-shelters-in-mexico/

Kooldood, This really is a complex issue, and it’s a lot more than “just racism”. Try to get to know the Law on Immigration, and get to know that it’s been historically and when. Countries don’t last long when they IGNORE their LAWS.

I agree we need to reform our Immigration System - I thought it was INSANE that Juan & I had to translate all of the forms from Spanish to English (or English to Spanish depending upon recipient country), because the Dept. of Immigration & Naturalization had NO Standardized Translated forms. I thought it was appalling that Juan’s (Juan is a Naturalized Citizen who ran the Gauntlet I described above) son then had to wait 6 years to enter the USA AFTER we submitted his paperwork.

Those are issues that have NOTHING to do with NON-Enforcement of the Laws! But, They have everything to do with making sure the Laws actually work and make sense…

In Christ, Michael

Modern Whites can’t think in terms of complexity. They see Whites criticizing non-Whites and automatically assume “racism”. Political correctness and cultural Marxist indoctrination have been very successful in the West.

Heaven forbid someone stops and thinks about the matter rather than assuming Whites are evil racist hatemongers

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

My perspective is from an American who saw his neighborhood destroyed by Mexicans. No one of any other races wants to move here. The businesses that crop up have their signs written in Spanish.

I do not know the reasons for your neighborhoods changes, but my own childhood neighborhood has gone through similar changes, yet the area is still predominantly white. Very sad as I had such fond memories of growing up there. Most of the better stores have left and the poorer are moving in as the more affluent residents left. Many of the homes of the people that have remained have run down as their children grew up and left and they are too old to maintain them. I wonder if this is common in all cities as I seem to see it happening no matter where in the world I have lived. I am sure someone has done a study on Urban development and renewal requirements. I guess that Detroit is going to bull-doze 25% of the city because of blight and abandonment. The people are no longer there. Not even illegals.

kfgo.com/regionalnews_Detail.php?ID=11328

Gangs run freely through the neighborhood and the police rarely arrest anyone because of all the Latino groups that interfere with law enforcement.

In I believe that the phenomenon of gangs is not unique to any area. What may be unique is how you view the presence. In Latin neighborhoods we have Latin gangs. In Jamaican neighborhoods we have Jamaican gangs. In other areas we have “Bloods” and “Crip’s” and the Arian Brotherhood and the FFF are are well known. In the past we had Egan’s Rats an Irish gang and the Jewish Mafia as well as the Al Capone’s whole gang. Like many things these gangs usually occur in less opulent areas, or spring up in response to some perceived threat by another neighborhood, local “corrupt” government or just plain greed. Having illegal activity to me seems to be far less dependent on people being “Mexican” then the fact that they are vulnerable to abuse. Most parents in these families both work, and the children form groups for support. Unfortunately the group ends up replacing the family as the core component of upbringing and by the time these people realize their mistakes they are usually so under educated, incarcerated, or destined to be so, that little real hope exists for them to get out of this cycle when they have children of their own.

Now, as Catholics, are we supposed to welcome this?

I do not believe you have to welcome gangs and behavior that is sinful in any city, county, country or faith group. I for one would not welcome it.

As Americans, are we supposed to tolerate this?

We should not tolerate the gang behavior. That would be condoning sinful behavior. I think it needs to be addressed and members either reformed or incarcerated.

If you knew that 50% of all snakes were poisonous and a snake was crawling toward you and you had no means of escape but you did have a gun, would you pet the snake or kill it?

I would not want to categorize humans with snakes for many reasons. Primarily because doing so would be to either lower the dignity of a Human being to that of an animal or to raise the dignity of an animal to that of a human being. I believe that the culture of death does the former and Peta pushes the later. In either case this is not in accordance with the teachings of the Church. As far back as the Didache (Chap 1:5, Chap 3 10, Chap 4) and Pope Leo XIII Rerum Novarum and Pope John Paul’s Evangelium Vitae and Pope Benedict’s Caritas Veritate all speak to Social Justice.

I personally understand, and I actually I want to protect what I have so that my Kids can have it. My concern is that by my selfishness in these thinkings I am not advancing the betterment of mankind nor Church’s leadership desires. My thinking is obviously not in accordance with the teachings of the church and all I can do is continue to look inside and ask if I am at least doing something to help the innocents.

In the example you pose I would prefer to use humans so that we do not dehumanize them…if 50% of the humans were bad…I would not want to exclude them all from help because of the 50% of good people.

I think the CCC in 311-312 is what I would have to depend on in this case.

 

[bksumm]

“And they will know we are Christians by or love by or love…yes they will know we are Christians by our love.”

Peace be with you

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

Yes, they should. Shame on them.

I am NO expert, but my Parish Father is constantly asking us to examine our consciences before we go to sleep at night. So I would think that those that question the Vatican likely need to examine their consciences as well to see if they are picking and choosing what the Church teaches…Kinda like Smörgåsbord Catholics. If some teaching is inconvenient or just not easy or costly they tend to ignore it, even if it is a mortal sin such as the Pill. We have many of them in my Parish. Do you know any Smörgåsbord Catholics, you know those that believe in their own “Brand” or Roman Catholicism, rejecting tenets from Rome?

50% of all Catholics (ie, not Catholics in name only but devout and hence actual Catholics) are not criminals.

So you are saying that Criminals. i.e., those fleeing poverty for their children, since defined by current law as criminals should, or at least theoretically could, be justifiably shot along with the other 50% that was definitely becoming gang members, since they would be criminals along with them?

Is that proportional justice? We don’t even prosecute wars using logic like that… Just war doctrine demands proportional use of force. A parents desire for the betterment of a child should not result in death unless that parent did something like harvest an organ or commit some other capital crime.

On a side note would an “devoted actual Catholic”, by your standards have to follow church doctrine, or can they pick and choose what they want to believe?

Modern Whites can’t think in terms of complexity. They see Whites criticizing non-Whites and automatically assume “racism”. Political correctness and cultural Marxist indoctrination have been very successful in the West.

Heaven forbid someone stops and thinks about the matter rather than assuming Whites are evil racist hatemongers

Wow…I guess your label for “Modern Whites” are for all whites of a certain age that are classified as Modern, or is that label just for those that don’t drink your brand of Kool-Aid? I imagine I am included in your sweeping judgment since I am a “Modern White”, although I am not so much concerned about criticism of Non-Whites.

I actually totally abhor quotas and other legal discrimination based on race. Martin Luther King junior did not want quota’s based on race. He wanted quota’s based on economics and merit so that all children with good grades could go to school. He wanted equal access for a Meritocracy not what we have today and I agree with him. That being said I will “Check the Latino box” on my, Blond hair, blue eyed, child’s forms until such time as our “Elected Officials” decide to remove this foolish law and base his advantages on grades alone.

With regards to immigration, reading your above, I assume and please correct me if I am wrong, that you would exclude members of your family and others from wherever your ancestors native land is from coming. So long as it is fair discrimination I would say great and I actually think we need a higher fence and better enforcement of our borders. I would like to fine a company a million dollars for hiring a known illegal, although proving that becomes burdensome and would likely require some forms of Bio-identification (National) that I am opposed to.

What I am more concerned with is denying health care to any Child when you and I are allowing, and even encouraging their parents to come to pick our fruit, but want to deny their kids medicine or educations. Is this not a form or economic slavery? Or would you argue…well they freely came…The old Robber Barons that kept the US middle class down worked children and said the same things.

“Its not my fault the parents are poor”, and “You should thank me that I am giving these children jobs” and another. “It is sad though that some of them lose limbs in my factory, but I should not have to provide any compensation other then what was earned as it was clearly and an accident”.

The above being said I too personally don’t like the idea, at least currently, to care for most illegal adults that need treatment, (Except for Pregnant Women) and that is NOT very charitable of me, or IAW church teachings, but I think we need to see if we can provide care to the kids first and then see if we can pay for more without bankrupting or society, which looks doubtful. That said if we only have a very poor excuse of an attempt of building a wall and don’t fine companies that hire people that are coming to work then we owe them care. Israel has a nice wall…are we so stupid we cant build one, or is it that we really don’t want to?

I am glad that you are such a good “Judge” of character, must be almost God like in your abilities that you should be be able to readily discern what is, and what is not, within someones heart and if they are being selfish, charitable, or merely just sarcastic…

 

[ManOnFire]

We are long overdue for a lecture from the Church on Fascism. The Fascist mentality of “Nation above God” will become more popular as more people abandon the Truth and attempt to make up their own rules.

When I worked in NYC, I was surprised to learn that the Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans have their own fascist dynamic between the 3 groups. (I’m not picking on them. Many of them are good Catholics. I just want to make a point) The Cubans see themselves as the closest bloodline to Spain, followed by the Puerto Ricans next, followed by the Dominicans. Why should this rivalry between Hispanic groups exist? One cannot control where one’s ancestors were born. Why can’t we live as law-abiding Catholics who live by the Truth? If we do, all these problems go away.

Unfortunately, the “There are no universal truths” and “Invent your own reality” liberals are making it MORE difficult to follow the Truth with their unprecedented levels of permissive law breaking. People on all sides have been breaking Federal Law and Church Law for so long that some will rationalize any behavior if they can get away with it. Consequently, society’s level of frustration and barbarism grows and becomes increasingly unruly as individuals make up their own rules.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

**As a rule, I allow much freedom of exchange on this forum. However, if we cannot discuss the subject of the thread like adults I will close it. **

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

We are long overdue for a lecture from the Church on Fascism. The Fascist mentality of “Nation above God” will become more popular as more people abandon the Truth and attempt to make up their own rules.

When I worked in NYC, I was surprised to learn that the Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and Dominicans have their own fascist dynamic between the 3 groups. (I’m not picking on them. Many of them are good Catholics. I just want to make a point) The Cubans see themselves as the closest bloodline to Spain, followed by the Puerto Ricans next, followed by the Dominicans. Why should this rivalry between Hispanic groups exist? One cannot control where one’s ancestors were born. Why can’t we live as law-abiding Catholics who live by the Truth? If we do, all these problems go away.

Unfortunately, the “There are no universal truths” and “Invent your own reality” liberals are making it MORE difficult to follow the Truth with their unprecedented levels of permissive law breaking. People on all sides have been breaking Federal Law and Church Law for so long that some will rationalize any behavior if they can get away with it. Consequently, society’s level of frustration and barbarism grows and becomes increasingly unruly as individuals make up their own rules.

I agree that we have law breakers all over, hopefully we can change the Civil Laws to comply with our religious laws…then we can once again live in the light of the Natural and Moral laws, that is so long as the Flock actually even knows what the Church laws are…which many prefer to live in “Invincible Ignorance”

 

[donr]

We can not currently do it with the limitations under the current system, nor with the budget the way that it is, at least not for everyone.The above being said I think that we could have preventative medicine for those under 18.

I would say to this that if we are a free society and not a socialist society that the correct thing to do would be education. We are all about educating our young to use condoms but when it comes to using carrots and veggies or vitamins we fall way short. I don’t believe that preventive medicine for all under 18 is every ones responsibility. I have a hard enough job taking care of the two kids that I have. Personally, I do not want some doctor teaching my kids about health care I will do it. The churches should be the best resource for those who can not afford health care not the government. In my opinion the church should start its own health care insurance program. Then we would all have something to buy into, It would be cheap, free for those who can’t afford it and would cover the rest of us with out the junk the government would cause.

We will likely be paying vast sums to entice workers here in the late 2020’s and 2030’s.

.

Was that thought before or after the economic problems?

I agree…but unfortunately most of the West’s birthrates are demanding for foreign labor…The problems in Europe are two fold, and much greater compaired to ours. Not only a tax on resources, but also pushing a different culture and religion. Many Muslims are there now and soon parts of Christian Europe will no longer be Christian.

.

This is exactly why we need to keep the American dream going and not do anything that Europe has done. They have completely opened their borders and provide health care for all. Not where we want to be.

I agree we must defend our borders from enemies, however I am not certain that I would classify immigrants as enemies. They are a burden on our systems, but that might be because we have not figured out a way to bring them into our systems with the exception of using their labor, which we are obviousely doing or they would not come. Supply and demand is a pretty basic fact.

First I must state that I am completely, 100% not opposed to immigration to this Country as some may be. If it were not for immigration, I would not be here. Now to the point. I did not mean to make a point to call immigrant enemies. My thought was that simply having open borders allows in everyone the criminal and the just. We need a filter. There have been many who come across the border who have been criminals. In AZ, 70% or higher of the inmates are Mexican immigrants.

We used to have Ellis Island on the East Coast and Angel Island on the West Coast to bring in immigrants from Europe, maybe we need to set up a boarder city to do the same. Here isolation areas, shots, work permits and other border controls could be put in place. I am no expert here, but it is a thought.

I agree with this, you should bring it up to your legislator.

 

[donr]

As a protestant I never had to worry or even think about your comment above…Sola Scripture and or Sola Fida, but…as a Catholic tradition plays a major role in the Church. Many of the traditions in the Catholic church are different from country to country. I noticed that while I was stationed in Italy they have a tradition of a Christmas Witch, La Befana. As a protestant I thought that was bizarre, but not as weird as burying the dead for a year and then digging them up and the family watching them strip the bones and put them in a mausoleum. One of my employees mother passed before I had arrived and she did not want to have to watch but she did. Still gives me the heebee geebee’s. How would you classify these traditions in line with Catholic traditions you are used to?

First, what you have mentioned above is not considered “Catholic Tradition”. Catholic tradition are teachings other than what is written in the bible passed down to the Pope and other leaders from the Apostles. The traditions that I was referring to are the Mexican traditions, like only going to Mass for the Eucharist and not for the entire Mass, or going to Ash Wednesday service just for the ashes and the meaning of the ashes, or blessing themselves three times in a row and then kissing their thumbs. Baseball players do the same thing, they are doing for good luck not as a prayer to the Almighty. This all fits into superstition not religion. Your point about the Christmas Witch is not in “Catholic Tradition” but may be an Italian Catholic tradition that in my opinion is also bizarre.

I agree, but this forum was titled “Why are American Catholics prejudiced against Mexican Catholics?”, which is true to the extent that I think it relates to immigration. I do not believe, or at least I pray it is not true since I am so new to Catholicism, that American Catholics would be so shallow as to be prejudiced in the faith. I am assuming that it is racial or more pointedly class and immigration status. We can’t do much in one generation to change someones racial prejudices, but maybe their children’s. As far as class goes we are developing STRONG class distinctions now in our country. We fled them coming from Europe, but I guess we just gotta have them, we pay CEO’s huge sum’s as well as our Sports stars and Celebrities. It will only get worse if we allow unbridled Robber Baron’s. I do not like wealth redistribution, but I also do not like dynasties either. Not sure how to fix it and I am sure it will be a huge debate but something needs to be done or the American dream will be gone. Well that would fix the immigration problem anyway.

One of the things that has made this Country great and allows you and me to make as much money as we would like is free enterprise. A CEO makes millions or billions of dollars because they are the ones who will make or break a million, billion or trillion dollar company. I may be jealous of the fact that they make so much money, but if I wanted to I should have done the same thing in my career. The same goes for professional sports players or what ever else. They get paid the money because someone is willing to pay it or no one else can do the job. In professional sports, you are one play away from never working again. You had better get paid well while you can do it. Same goes for a CEO. If they under perform and company losses stock their whole career could be gone. But if you take a company and make it more profitable to the stock holders you get more money and become more valuable to the next company who will pay you more.

This issue of Immigration I think is at the root of the animosity that is felt by some of our Latin American Catholic members. I have seen it in the treatment my wife gets. She is an immigrant from Peru and she has been treated poorly at times when people think she is from Mexico. That being said our Children, for the most part could not be distinguished from any other American and yes we are all called Gringo’s…my children affectionately called so by relatives when we visit. I guess political correctness has not been enacted nor yet enforced in South America as it is here in the states.

First of all I would like to apologize for any of my Catholic brothers and sisters who may have offended you or your wife. If we can not have civil dialogue we are truly ruined as a country. We all need to know why people are risking their lives, crossing the desert in 120 deg. weather trying to get to this great Country. We also need to understand why we can not simply let them in. I really liked your idea of an Ellis Island type place to vet the new comers but I am sure that would cause issues with the civil liberties union (not capitalized on purpose).

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

I would say to this that if we are a free society and not a socialist society that the correct thing to do would be education. We are all about educating our young to use condoms but when it comes to using carrots and veggies or vitamins we fall way short. I don’t believe that preventive medicine for all under 18 is every ones responsibility. I have a hard enough job taking care of the two kids that I have. Personally, I do not want some doctor teaching my kids about health care I will do it. The churches should be the best resource for those who can not afford health care not the government. In my opinion the church should start its own health care insurance program. Then we would all have something to buy into, It would be cheap, free for those who can’t afford it and would cover the rest of us with out the junk the government would cause.

My thoughts on this was that Baby Well care is relatively inexpensive, but emergency delivery uses a lot of resources. Using these funds would not be expensive. If we could get the Church to start policies it might work. Although the training would be contentious as I noticed in your quote above you mention teaching kids to use condoms…they are illicit in the church and against the teaching of the Church. I know that a lot of people in the Church do not follow this but it is the case.

A good article on why this is so is here…
onemoresoul.com/contraception/risks-consequences/the-connection-between-contraception-and-abortion.html

onemoresoul.com/contraception/risks-consequences/the-harms-of-contraception.html

www.hli.org is a really good site but the english site is down.

Was that thought before or after the economic problems?

This book was published by Doubleday 2009. ISBN 978-0-385-51705-8
The reason for our hiring them is that we have killed and or avoided having millions of babies. One thought as to why we are having the immigration issues we are currently having is that the vacuum we created through contraception and abortion is just being filled.

This is exactly why we need to keep the American dream going and not do anything that Europe has done. They have completely opened their borders and provide health care for all. Not where we want to be.

Europe has no choice unless they want to see depopulation, which Japan is doing…Europe has a birth rate of 1.8 and below…they are killing themselves off…So they are allowing migrants. Japan is not allowing migrants and they are dying off. By 2300 they well have depopulated the country…A country needs 2.1 to maintain…The US with immigration has something like 2.3 to 2.4. Mexico is now declining and we will have to compete for labor to care for our elderly. Likely you and I.

First I must state that I am completely, 100% not opposed to immigration to this Country as some may be. If it were not for immigration, I would not be here. Now to the point. I did not mean to make a point to call immigrant enemies. My thought was that simply having open borders allows in everyone the criminal and the just. We need a filter. There have been many who come across the border who have been criminals. In AZ, 70% or higher of the inmates are Mexican immigrants.

Yes…we need some way to document those wanting to work.

I agree with this, you should bring it up to your legislator.

I am a resident of Florida, temporarily residing (Stationed) in Cuba. I think it needs to be in California or Texas…But I think it would be a good idea too… Take care…

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

First, what you have mentioned above is not considered “Catholic Tradition”. Catholic tradition are teachings other than what is written in the bible passed down to the Pope and other leaders from the Apostles. The traditions that I was referring to are the Mexican traditions, like only going to Mass for the Eucharist and not for the entire Mass, or going to Ash Wednesday service just for the ashes and the meaning of the ashes, or blessing themselves three times in a row and then kissing their thumbs. Baseball players do the same thing, they are doing for good luck not as a prayer to the Almighty. This all fits into superstition not religion. Your point about the Christmas Witch is not in “Catholic Tradition” but may be an Italian Catholic tradition that in my opinion is also bizarre.

That was my point…that in “Catholic Communities” many non religious traditions seem to have worked in. I wonder what we have in the US that is looked at with suspicion from others?

One of the things that has made this Country great and allows you and me to make as much money as we would like is free enterprise. A CEO makes millions or billions of dollars because they are the ones who will make or break a million, billion or trillion dollar company. I may be jealous of the fact that they make so much money, but if I wanted to I should have done the same thing in my career. The same goes for professional sports players or what ever else. They get paid the money because someone is willing to pay it or no one else can do the job. In professional sports, you are one play away from never working again. You had better get paid well while you can do it. Same goes for a CEO. If they under perform and company losses stock their whole career could be gone. But if you take a company and make it more profitable to the stock holders you get more money and become more valuable to the next company who will pay you more.

I appreciate the Free Enterprise system. It is the best in the world, but I think it was better in the 40’s-50’s when most stocks actually paid dividends to the shareholders, instead of only giving value back to the corporate leadership. The rate of increase in salaries for those I mentioned has not been proportional. It is amazing to me but the free market is the free market. I do think that the profit taking by the executives will eventually destroy our corporate world. Business ethics are terrible these days.

First of all I would like to apologize for any of my Catholic brothers and sisters who may have offended you or your wife. If we can not have civil dialog we are truly ruined as a country. We all need to know why people are risking their lives, crossing the desert in 120 deg. weather trying to get to this great Country. We also need to understand why we can not simply let them in. I really liked your idea of an Ellis Island type place to vet the new comers but I am sure that would cause issues with the civil liberties union (not capitalized on purpose).

You don’t need to apologize that is part of the whole political correctness stuff we have been feed. I do agree that this topic needs to be discussed and we actually do need immigrants unless we ban abortion. You are also probably right that someone would protest a “New Ellis Island” … ironic in a way.

Take care…

 

[kooldood]

Hello everybody. The OP hath returned! I was on a weekend retreat. Just for thou information, so that you know that I am all spiritual-ish and that the reason I didn’t respond to any direct questions was because I wasn’t here.

Well, all questions to me were answered by somebody else (thanks ), so, I’ll just say that we should cool down some and I don’t see how that guy that got banned was ever in a state of non-banned. Oh, and the gringo thing… about that, when you get called “gringito”, (sort of like saying, dear gringo), you know that its not a bad word. Doth does the mexican-gringolandian speak.