Why are many protestants opposed to honoring the Blessed Virgin Mary?

[Kristin234]

We don’t, she’s like God’s secretary, it’s easier to reach her sometimes than the Big Man.

Umm…I’m sorry but this really disturbed me. I have never heard any other Catholic put it that way. God is always easy to reach. He is GOD after all. He is always there. And if you are a Christian He is always inside of you. All you need to do is call upon His name and He will always hear you. It makes me sad to see that Christians really believe that God isn’t always there and He puts someone else in charge to take His place.

“Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Anyway, I am not opposed to honoring Mary. A lot of Catholics think we hate Mary but it is just the opposite. I admire Mary. I think she was an amazing and brave young woman. She was most definitely blessed. I mean, who else can say they gave birth to God incarnate?! I pray that I can be like her in the sense that no matter what God throws at me, no matter how impossible it seems, I can put my trust in Him and let Him handle it the way Mary did. Just because I do not ask her to pray to me, do the rosary, of bow down to her statue does not mean I hate or do not honor Mary. I guess the protestant definition of honoring is different from the Catholic definition.

 

[JRKH]

Umm…I’m sorry but this really disturbed me. I have never heard any other Catholic put it that way. God is always easy to reach. He is GOD after all. He is always there. And if you are a Christian He is always inside of you. All you need to do is call upon His name and He will always hear you. It makes me sad to see that Christians really believe that God isn’t always there and He puts someone else in charge to take His place.

I agree. Like you I never heard such a description before.
The nearest thing to such a thing is when Mary (Mother of the King) is equated to the “Queen Mother” in the Davidic Kingdom. People would come to her with petitions because of her special relationship and closeness to the king himself.
BUT - -
The comment also kind of points up the many and varied ways in which people identify with Mary. It matters less whether it is precisely and literally true or not than whether it helps that individual to understand - for themselves…

“Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Amen

Anyway, I am not opposed to honoring Mary. A lot of Catholics think we hate Mary but it is just the opposite. I admire Mary. I think she was an amazing and brave young woman. She was most definitely blessed. I mean, who else can say they gave birth to God incarnate?! I pray that I can be like her in the sense that no matter what God throws at me, no matter how impossible it seems, I can put my trust in Him and let Him handle it the way Mary did. Just because I do not ask her to pray to me, do the rosary, of bow down to her statue does not mean I hate or do not honor Mary.

This is a very good and healthy outlook. I say "Bravo…

If I may ask - since you used a number of wonderful adjectives for Our Lady - Would you say that you Love her?

I guess the protestant definition of honoring is different from the Catholic definition.

Here again - I think that it is going to depend on the particular protestant or protestant group…We don’t want to lump every protestant faith tradition into one - there is just too much variation.
Truthfully though, I don’t know that our definitions are necessarily different, I think that most of those who object are objecting less about the idea of honor and more about the degree of honor.
That is why we need to carefully teach each other and listen to each other…

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary…of Italia…

I live in the Pacific NW and the only encounter I have had has been with garter snakes. I have a client who loves animal programs. By the time we are able to watch a tv program, it is at the gross hour…usually about all the foreign snakes invading the Florida Everglades and beyond…lately we saw a video come up about a python found in the crib with it attached to the one year old’s baby foot.

With my Italians from the Motherland…I encountered Mary through them that I did not have here in America…and the blessing I had of coming to Mary was incredible. My parish published my letter for all the parishioners…and I have come to her. I know her presence…

Mary is the bridge between humanity and God. That is why the priest used such terminology. We can never be a god. We cannot manifest Godly attributes of our own. But Mary’s purity of state of being, she being our heavenly mother, unites us to the Divine that we ourselves are incapable of.

Furthermore…albeit a gross image of snakes…you have to context of that given culture and the history they had with snakes. In my work with the Italians in Africa…the big issue was our encounter with snakes…Everybody had a snake store…The country we were in had the greatest variety of snakes in the world. One time a friar pulled a plank up and threw it at the wall, seeing a cobra in there…It shot out…a mamba…charged us, then zig zagged at me…I had time to jump my feet apart, and the snake ran through.

About 5 years later a friend told me at a meal, who raised snakes at one time…told me with much emotion, that mamba charged to kill me. The Africans standing next to me were full of amazement and told me I had good luck…that some day I would be married…

Anyway, by then my Blessed Mother was with me…and we see her crushing the head of Satan…we become her heel through prayer and humility and nothingness…to be part of her cohorts in defeating evil. I know gentle Mary was with me that day.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well I have to say I grew up in that period of mixed ethnic backgrounds in America during V-I. My grandparents owned the home next door to St Michaels which was mainly polish and vets, the sister’s and priests were often there for a meal or just to chat. My wife is Italian as is her side of the family, same situation which has changed over time with the different ethnic groups somewhat. Almost everyone attended Catholic college in my family, frankly in the 60’s I couldn’t get far enough away unlike my siblings. Course I understood the teaching in the Church on Mary and witnessed this first hand with my grandmother, mother and my wifes family. No-one ever pushed this on me and I always felt I could and did pray directly to the Lord. Obvious my thinking has changed through time. Hindsight is always 20-20.

As time passed I understood and noticed those walking the closest to the Lord did in fact have a deep regard for Mary. There came a point this couldn’t be ignored. Somehow I felt the need to be closer and more involved with the Church thus this aspect, I’m convinced my choice to do what I refused to as a youth completed this void with me through Mary. How I do not know exactly as it is a Mystery of Grace through the Lord, as is Mary. I felt as if I was no longer seeking the Lord but somehow being led and I believe this has a great deal to do with Mary. I believe we need to respect and honor Her in the order of Grace. And in that order She indeed is the Queen of Heaven, make no mistake here, 2000 years in these Churchs make this abundantly clear. They have stood in the gap and fought every evil which could be conjured up since Jesus.

While I do believe correct understanding with veneration to Mary is imperative, I must admit I have never seen anyone led astray in this regard, very much the opposite. The priority of Church, Eucharist, prayer, state of Grace must be understood though, thus correct worship. Still it must be understood a great many in the Churchs focus on the order I mentioned here.

Mary is a common bond in the Apostolic Church’s, the degree which we differ or disagree isn’t relevant but to us in these Churchs at present. And you’ll find where we differ isn’t to the degree most would assume on this issue when placed under critical scrutiny. Most of this revolves around the respect all of these Church’s rightfully deserve and was paid for by their blood and in fact still is.

Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

I think the real problem is judging by appearances and not knowing the depth of Catholic understanding of Mary.

What can help it is studying the theology of perfection – St. Bernard of Clairvaiux, St. Catherine of Siena, S John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila…with the theology of the Eucharist…very profound…Who Christ is and who we are not…and then contemplating about Mary…again the link between the two…human and divine.

 

[JRKH]

CUT - - -

** Mary is the bridge between humanity and God.**

CUT----.

I think the real problem is judging by appearances and not knowing the depth of Catholic understanding of Mary.

What can help it is studying the theology of perfection – St. Bernard of Clairvaiux, St. Catherine of Siena, S John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila…with the theology of the Eucharist…very profound…Who Christ is and who we are not…and then contemplating about Mary…again the link between the two…human and divine.

Kathleen…
I pulled these bits out of your two posts as very interesting since in St Catherine of Sienna’s book “Dialogues” It is Jesus who God tells her is the Bridge here
How the road to Heaven being broken through the disobedience of Adam, God made of His Son a Bridge by which man could pass.
You can find the description HERE beginning in section 7 under “A TREATISE OF DISCRETION”.

The reason I bring this up is not to discount Our Lady, but when people say that Mary is the road or the bridge or the door to Jesus or God or whatever…it makes it sound more “exclusive” than it should be.
I do not know what St Catherine has to say about our Lady, but since God told here (in the Dialogues) that Jesus is a bridge between heaven and earth, man and God - something that both Catholics and Protestants can agree on, then what we can say about Mary is that she too is A bridge but not the bridge.

I’s sorry to appear nit-picky - and I do not intend to belittle what you say in your posts - but one of the things that we have been discussing here is improving how we explain to others who have trouble dealing with the concepts. Sometimes small words can make a big difference.

Peace
James

 

[ThePuppyTurtle]

Because of their misunderstanding. The reason I oppose and always will oppose calling her the co-redemtrix. It’s true in the sense they mean it, but it is really easy to misunderstand and even if the church does it, I will maintain it is a bad idea that will serve only to affirm the obvious and undisputed while giving protestants more ammo to throw at Catholics.

 

[psr13]

I don’t believe that “most protestants” are opposed to honoring the mother of Christ. It is they type and degree of honor that is the sticking point and others here have touched on these:

1. Takes away from Jesus
2. Runs dangerously close or crosses the line from veneration to worship
   etc.

Also I think that the Marion Dogmas are troublesome to many protestants who do not see sufficient biblical evidence for them. Thus they cannot understand how or why the Church feels justified in making such beliefs “required” through dogmatic declarations rather than leaving the faithful free to accept them or not.

That said, most people I have spoken with have no problem “honoring” Mary as the mother of the savior, the blessed instrument of God, and a great example of submission and obedience in faith and trust to God’s Will. All of these are things that we honor her for too.
Where they draw the line tends to be in other matters which are, in some/many cases, broader than just “Marion” veneration. For instance, some protestants do not hold with prayer to the saints - such would naturally include prayers to the BVM. Likewise, those who hold to a “soul sleep” concept would believe that Mary, like the other saints is not in heaven but in the grave awaiting the second coming.

There are many issues involved and they can be quite interrelated. I have read some writings of saints that make me cringe. The writing is so “Mary” focused that it really DOES sound and feel like “Mary worship”. I know that this is not their intent, but likewise I know that such writing, such promotion etc will be just as troubling to many a protestant who is investigating the Church.

For myself, I am often reminded of the last words of our lady recorded in the Bible. “Do whatever he tells you to do”. I then take this as the best and greatest instruction from my Heavenly Mother, who I love very much. I honor her by doing what Jesus tells me to do which is to Love the God and Love neighbor.

Peace
James

When growing up as a Protestant, most Protestants did not honor Mary. She was usually thought of as just another woman.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Well, I grew up in an Italian immigrant neighborhood in the USA, and worked with Apulians overseas…and saw them believe so profoundly in the resurrection of Christ…and acknowledged their devotion to Mary…which was not extreme or excessive at all.

If people do not think it right to pray to Mary for her help, – who is full of grace, – then why bother asking living sinners to pray for them who have little grace.

Don’t bother then to ask others to pray for you, and do not believe either that the saints who die in the Lord enjoy His presence, and do not believe either that the saints recall their life here on earth and remember all of us who seek Him.

It is the grace of Christ Who saves us.

Again, it is their preachers who do not have the universal faith who indoctrinate them that Catholics worship Mary…or that these Christians themselves are more inclined to personal interpretation that also superimposes onto Catholicism and causes them to perceive us worshipping Mary when in fact we do not.

Mary is our companion in the walk of Christ.

Mary makes our cross light, and makes our crosses bearable. She manifests the presence of heaven to us and protects us from the snares of the enemy.

What you are seeing instead is people drawing on her grace rather than turning to depend on sinners so much of this life…albeit they be Christians. Everyone has their problems…who wants to add ours to others? So it is better to ask Mary for help and counsel who sees the Lord face to face.

Thank you, this was very helpful to me.

My mother was a devout Catholic. But she always told me “pray to the blessed mother” and never said anything about Jesus. So I have always had some issues there.

Also thanks to so many others for an excellent thread.

 

[JK8619]

For the most part, protestants do honor Mary. I have been exposed to different protestant churches when I was younger. My father is a non-demominational Christian (his father’s side was Catholic and his mother’s was Protestant). We attended a Christian Science Church with my grandmother for a short period of time. My mother was raised Catholic, but for some reason stopped attending mass when I was about four. For some reason she took my brother and I to a Pentecostal church for a few years, then a Nazarene church. Once I was old enough to drive, I started attending mass again on my own. From what I saw of Protestant churches, they are very respectful of Mary, but have different views on her. They do not believe in the non-biblical claims that the Catholic Church teaches on her (no original sin, perpetual virginity), and they do not believe in petitioning the dead for prayers on their behalf. Even though I am Catholic, I don’t believe those things either. Its not a lack of honor or respect, just a different view.

 

[andreashofer]

So, perhaps it comes down to Catholics explaining better, and non-Catholics listening better.

On the explaining side - describing the difference between latria and dulia.

On the listening side - have an open mind to what is said, and not simply what one has always thought.

Jon

In this regard I like to explain to you that Catholics must adhere to the catholic teachings, rather then making up our own ideas, which “might” fit our personal agendas. Catholics are obedient to the Vicar of Christ and united in the contemplation of the beauty of Marian dogma.
Beauty is therefore not in the eye of the beholder, but an Absolute as God has created, covering the needs for a profound understanding. I encourage you to have an open mind, yes, have an open heart as well.

 

[JRKH]

In this regard I like to explain to you that Catholics must adhere to the catholic teachings, rather then making up our own ideas, which “might” fit our personal agendas. Catholics are obedient to the Vicar of Christ and united in the contemplation of the beauty of Marian dogma.
Beauty is therefore not in the eye of the beholder, but an Absolute as God has created, covering the needs for a profound understanding. I encourage you to have an open mind, yes, have an open heart as well.

Andreas -
Welcome to the forums…
In regards to the above, I feel compelled to defend our good friend JonNC
I think you will find that Jon is one of the most open minded, charitable and Christian of posters here. Jon has always been very supportive of Catholic doctrine as well as wonderfully efficient as explaining the Lutheran view on matters where we differ (which seem to be few).
This is not an attack on you dear Andreas. Just an observation from an old hand here.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

For the most part, protestants do honor Mary. I have been exposed to different protestant churches when I was younger. My father is a non-demominational Christian (his father’s side was Catholic and his mother’s was Protestant). We attended a Christian Science Church with my grandmother for a short period of time. My mother was raised Catholic, but for some reason stopped attending mass when I was about four. For some reason she took my brother and I to a Pentecostal church for a few years, then a Nazarene church. Once I was old enough to drive, I started attending mass again on my own. From what I saw of Protestant churches, they are very respectful of Mary, but have different views on her. They do not believe in the non-biblical claims that the Catholic Church teaches on her (no original sin, perpetual virginity), and they do not believe in petitioning the dead for prayers on their behalf. Even though I am Catholic, I don’t believe those things either. Its not a lack of honor or respect, just a different view.

JK,
Welcome Home…

Feel I must comment on the last portion of your post because I am in something of the same boat as you are…Marion Dogma’s can be difficult to understand.
BUT…I beg of you to not reject these things that the Church teaches even though you do not understand them.

You are Catholic and as such you must believe in the authority of the Church to teach…To “Bind and Loose” - “Whatever”. Jesus did not limit this authority to, “whatever is written in what will become the bible”. He simply said, “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mt 16:17-19)(Mt 18:15-18)
The Church has bound these things. They are dogmatically declared. Therefore they are “bound” in heaven. It is not up to the individual Catholic to say, “I don’t believe those things.” We can say, “I don’t understand them” we can even “ignore them” but we cannot reject them.

Specifically as it relates to this thread - and I point this out often here…While the Church does teach that prayer to the saints is efficacious, the Church does not require us to do so.
In so far as Marion Dogma’s of the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity go… I accept them because I accept the Church’s authority to teach. If I did not accept this then I have no reason to be Catholic as opposed to any other group. As a Catholic, I don’t need to understand them…Just accept them.

Please accept the above in the brotherly and charitable way that it is intended. There are many many things that I do not understand about our faith. It is so deep and rich.
Yet I believe that, as Catholics, we must start from a position of acceptance of Church teaching until it is dis-proven (which cannot be done by a SS argument if the bible is silent). It is not our part to start from a position of rejection until something is proven.

Peace
James

PS: In regards to the PV of Mary, I came to this very simple and biblical notion for believing. If I put myself in Joseph’s sandals…Knowing what Joseph knew…namely that Mary gave birth to the Son of God, by the Power of the Holy Spirit…I would never under any circumstance even think about having sexual relations with her. The fact that God chose her to bear his son would make her (in my eyes) betrothed to Almighty God.
Do you think that, knowing what Joseph knew, do you think that you could bring yourself to have sexual relations with the mother of God??
Something to think about -

 

[JK8619]

I just do not see any evidence to indicate that Mary remained a virgin, while on the contrary there are plenty of good arguments that she did not. You have probably heard them all before: Jesus had siblings, a marriage is not valid if not consummated, etc. I don’t care if others believe in perpetual virginity of Mary, it just doesn’t make sense to me because the idea kind of seems like it came out of left field with nothing to support it (as far as I know).

 

[JRKH]

I just do not see any evidence to indicate that Mary remained a virgin, while on the contrary there are plenty of good arguments that she did not. You have probably heard them all before: Jesus had siblings, a marriage is not valid if not consummated, etc. I don’t care if others believe in perpetual virginity of Mary, it just doesn’t make sense to me because the idea kind of seems like it came out of left field with nothing to support it (as far as I know).

JK,
I appreciate that you say at the end of your post (as far as I know). This is the wisest thing we can say when we truly do not know.
BUT - consider this. If the Church - with Christ granted authority - says it is so, who are we to say “I do not believe…”. Surely we can say, “I do not understand”…but not believe the Church we claim membership in?
Taking such a negative default position is, to me, much more troubling.
Far better to take a positive default position (I believe even though I don’t understand).

Truly I can appreciate what you say here…and yes I have heard the various arguments too - some quite good…and yet…
I must ask - Do you accept that the Church Christ founded has the authority to “Bind” and “Loose” - “Whatever”???

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

Kathleen…
I pulled these bits out of your two posts as very interesting since in St Catherine of Sienna’s book “Dialogues” It is Jesus who God tells her is the Bridge here
How the road to Heaven being broken through the disobedience of Adam, God made of His Son a Bridge by which man could pass.
You can find the description HERE beginning in section 7 under “A TREATISE OF DISCRETION”.

The reason I bring this up is not to discount Our Lady, but when people say that Mary is the road or the bridge or the door to Jesus or God or whatever…it makes it sound more “exclusive” than it should be.
I do not know what St Catherine has to say about our Lady, but since God told here (in the Dialogues) that Jesus is a bridge between heaven and earth, man and God - something that both Catholics and Protestants can agree on, then what we can say about Mary is that she too is A bridge but not the bridge.

I’s sorry to appear nit-picky - and I do not intend to belittle what you say in your posts - but one of the things that we have been discussing here is improving how we explain to others who have trouble dealing with the concepts. Sometimes small words can make a big difference.

Peace
James

Right, in Dialogues, Catherine of Siena is in dialogue with God the Father. So here the concept becomes Jesus as a link to God the Father or bridge for mankinds salvation. Which is also Biblical. The Church on the other hand defines itself as the Mystical Body of Christ. Thus Christ as the Head, Mary as the Neck, the HS as the Heart, the body as the laity. The Elect of the Church then are servants of the laity within the body.

In this understanding we come back to the Incarnation, in how Jesus came to man which is through Mary. Then the theory makes sense in that through the reverse reality the intercession of Mary can and does bring man to Her Son. Mary interceeded for man through the Incarnation.

 

[Kristin234]

Right, in Dialogues, Catherine of Siena is in dialogue with God the Father. So here the concept becomes Jesus as a link to God the Father or bridge for mankinds salvation. Which is also Biblical. The Church on the other hand defines itself as the Mystical Body of Christ. Thus Christ as the Head, Mary as the Neck, the HS as the Heart, the body as the laity. The Elect of the Church then are servants of the laity within the body.

In this understanding we come back to the Incarnation, in how Jesus came to man which is through Mary. Then the theory makes sense in that through the reverse reality the intercession of Mary can and does bring man to Her Son. Mary interceeded for man through the Incarnation.

I don’t believe anyone can bring man to Her Son other than the Father.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day”

 

[JonNC]

In this regard I like to explain to you that Catholics must adhere to the catholic teachings, rather then making up our own ideas, which “might” fit our personal agendas. Catholics are obedient to the Vicar of Christ and united in the contemplation of the beauty of Marian dogma.
Beauty is therefore not in the eye of the beholder, but an Absolute as God has created, covering the needs for a profound understanding. I encourage you to have an open mind, yes, have an open heart as well.

Indeed, and I would never ask that Catholics somehow vary their faith for the purpose dailogue or compromise. I was simply saying explain wha you mean by latria, dulia, hyperdulia. Whether or not protestants come to believe in the same way is a different matter, ut if we are to disagree, make sure the disagreement is based on knowledge of each other’s actual beliefs.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Kathleen…
I pulled these bits out of your two posts as very interesting since in St Catherine of Sienna’s book “Dialogues” It is Jesus who God tells her is the Bridge here
How the road to Heaven being broken through the disobedience of Adam, God made of His Son a Bridge by which man could pass.
You can find the description HERE beginning in section 7 under “A TREATISE OF DISCRETION”.

The reason I bring this up is not to discount Our Lady, but when people say that Mary is the road or the bridge or the door to Jesus or God or whatever…it makes it sound more “exclusive” than it should be.
I do not know what St Catherine has to say about our Lady, but since God told here (in the Dialogues) that Jesus is a bridge between heaven and earth, man and God - something that both Catholics and Protestants can agree on, then what we can say about Mary is that she too is A bridge but not the bridge.

I’s sorry to appear nit-picky - and I do not intend to belittle what you say in your posts - but one of the things that we have been discussing here is improving how we explain to others who have trouble dealing with the concepts. Sometimes small words can make a big difference.

Peace
James

First, James, thank you for your kind words. I am happy that you nit-picked. To the Lutheran (and perhaps generally protestant) ears, Kathleen’s statement you referenced,
Mary is the bridge between humanity and God., is troubling at best, as we believe Christ -fully man and fully God - is that bridge between man and God, because of the incarnation. If instead, the Blessed Virgin is viewed as one who prays for us, as we should pray for each other, and as perhaps the best example of the Christian life, there seems here common ground in our honoring of her.

Jon

 

[JRKH]

Right, in Dialogues, Catherine of Siena is in dialogue with God the Father. So here the concept becomes Jesus as a link to God the Father or bridge for mankind’s salvation. Which is also Biblical.

Well said - Very Biblical…

The Church on the other hand defines itself as the Mystical Body of Christ. Thus Christ as the Head, Mary as the Neck, the HS as the Heart, the body as the laity. The Elect of the Church then are servants of the laity within the body.

Yes - I am aware of this imagery though I am not especially fond of it from the standpoint of evangelization.

In this understanding we come back to the Incarnation, in how Jesus came to man which is through Mary. Then the theory makes sense in that through the reverse reality the intercession of Mary can and does bring man to Her Son. Mary interceded for man through the Incarnation.

Certainly this is fine if it is helpful to ones spiritual life, but if one tries to make it exclusive - that is - it is the only way in which one comes to God, then you have a problem as Kristen points out below.
The problem that I have with the “reverse reality” that you propose above is that when Jesus came to us through Mary, Mary did not keep him hidden behind her. Jesus went out on His own, taught, performed signs, called people to himself and did not require that Mary “bring them to him”.
Certainly if a neighbor or friend, or even a complete stranger were to come to Mary and say - “Show me your son” she would gladly do so. Likewise if a person came to Mary and said, “Would you ask your son for (this) favor”, she would do that too.
But in neither case would Our Lady wish to prevent anyone from approaching Jesus directly. And this can be the problem that some protestants can have with some of our views on Mary.

I don’t believe anyone can bring man to Her Son other than the Father.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day”

Kristen - I love this response to Gary’s post. Well said and too the point.
The Catholic response would be that Mary can only do what the Father wills and permits. So if, through devotion to Our Lady, one is brought to Christ, it is because the Father willed it…and so all comes from the Father. This makes perfect sense and allows for many individual spiritual paths utilizing a number of great and powerful tools (all of which are the Father’s), such as monasticism, saintly intervention, devotion to our blessed mother, study and emulation of a particular saint or discipline etc…
All of that said, I love simplicity. I know The Father is - well - my father, that Christ is my King and my Brother, and that the Blessed Virgin is, by virtue of being my brother’s mother, is my mother too.
I remember that her last recorded words in Scripture are “Do whatever He tells you” and so, being an obedient son who loves his mother…I do just that.

Peace
James