Why are Muslims saved according to Roman Catholicism?

[underdog]

Hi

I thank you for setting a target mission for Jesus “to rescue sinners from their already condemned conditon”.

You are a nice person, in my opinion.

What was the mission of Jonah ; kindly quote from the Book of Jonah?

Regards

Thanks for your kind words. I haven’t thought much of Jonah. In a quick summary of the Old Testament events, they are pictures, foreshadows, and types all pointing to what was fullilled in the life, death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus Christ (God incarnate).

Please share your hope with me since I see you are a Muslim believer in God. Do you believe Jesus Christ claimed deity. I am not asking if He was God in the flesh, but did Jesus Christ claim that He was deity?

 

[underdog]

Underdog, I think you are just confusing what it means to be “in Christ.” We all agree that Christ is everything…that we are either united to Him, united to truth… Or united to Adam in sin. You are right to say salvation doesn’t come by being Catholic, muslim, agnostic, or any other religion… It only comes through Christ, Jesus!

What we ARE disagreeing on, however, is that God may choose to reveal Jesus to our hearts how GOD wills to do so. Not underdog, ashleybelle, catholicism, islam, Christianity, atheism or anything else reveals Christ to our hearts…but God alone…through HIS grace alone. We may not put a label and limitation on How God may choose to reveal Christ to our hearts…And the Catholic church simply recognizes that because of His great love and power, God may choose to reveal Christ in ways that we do not understand.

We must be united to Christ in order to recieve His salvation…But you are placing limitations that simply do not exist on how we may be united to Him. It is of course desirable that we know Him fully…and we believe the FULLNESS of truth, the fullness of Christ, is present in His church; The Catholic Church. All salvation, all of Christ is offered to the whole world through His church, the body of Christ. Those who are not “fully united” MAY still be mystically united, because of God’s great mercy.

We are acknowledging that nobody can know the state of our hearts…only God. And we are acknowledging that He is greater than our understanding, and His truth is saving!

Why do you limit the power of God and the power of the cross?  Does it frighten you to imagine that somehow God may extend His grace to those who do not know Christ as fully as you do?

Thanks for sharing Ashley. I enjoy are discussions, but we really need a long break from each other. I wish you the very best in Christ. When I am ready again, we will continue our discussion. I am very interested to hear from Muslim worshippers of God.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks for your kind words. I haven’t thought much of Jonah. In a quick summary of the Old Testament events, they are pictures, foreshadows, and types all pointing to what was fullilled in the life, death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus Christ (God incarnate).

Please share your hope with me since I see you are a Muslim believer in God. Do you believe Jesus Christ claimed deity. I am not asking if He was God in the flesh, but did Jesus Christ claim that He was deity?

Hi

Please go thrugh the Book of Jonah; it is a very short Book. Kindly read it intently and please reply me; if you please, first.

Thanks

 

[underdog]

According to Roman Catholicism, Muslims are not saved but might be saved if God in His mercy chooses it for reasons He only knows.

What would be the basis for God to show mercy on Muslim believers? Would God be unjust to not punish sinners for their sins against Him? The wages of sin is death. God said there is a curse for all who break His law. God would be immoral and actually sinful if He left sin unpunished (Rom 3) according to what He said for lawbreakers. Mercy and grace is free for us as Christians. But for God the Father, grace cost Him the suffering and death of His own Son. Grace is not free, it cost God dearly. The cross is also the vindication of God to the claim that God left sin unpunished in the former days (OT), answering those who claim God is immoral or unjust for not serving justice according to His Word. There is a price to pay for sin. Who will pay the penalty and price for sin against God to receive a divine pardon (mercy and grace)? Someone has to pay the penalty for the sins of Muslims if God pardons them (mercy and grace). God is just if he gives us what we deserve.

Romans 3

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

IMG]http://images.entertainmentearth.com/AUTOIMAGES/DH13937.jpg

There is a cost for sin. The real question is who will pay the penalty for our sin, ourselves or Christ?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Thanks for sharing Ashley. I enjoy are discussions, but we really need a long break from each other. I wish you the very best in Christ. When I am ready again, we will continue our discussion. I am very interested to hear from Muslim worshippers of God.

 "Be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in you." 

What is our faith, if we are not willing to answer the "tough" questions?

I am not trying to frustrate you, or criticize you for what you believe…But I am asking these questions to CHALLENGE you. Or are you content with a “comfortable” faith?

I will ask again… Are you afraid of the idea that God may choose in His great power and mercy, to reveal Christ to the hearts of others who do not know Him as fully as you do?
I'm sorry that you feel we "need a long break from each other." We are all contributing to these forums for a reason..And I feel that even if my questions make you uncomfortable, they are no less worthy of consideration. Your response is yet again, something I've grown accustomed to from posters with similar belief systems as yours: a great big, sweeping "brush off."

 

[underdog]

“Be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in you.”

What is our faith, if we are not willing to answer the "tough" questions?

I am not trying to frustrate you, or criticize you for what you believe…But I am asking these questions to CHALLENGE you. Or are you content with a “comfortable” faith?

I will ask again… Are you afraid of the idea that God may choose in His great power and mercy, to reveal Christ to the hearts of others who do not know Him as fully as you do?

 I'm sorry that you feel we "need a long break from each other."  We are all contributing to these forums for a reason..And I feel that even  if my questions make you uncomfortable, they are no less worthy of consideration.  Your response is yet again, something I've grown accustomed to from posters with similar belief systems as yours:  a great big, sweeping "brush off."

Please Ashley, let’s take a break from each other. I will be putting you on ignore so I won’t be able to read what you post.

 

[mark_a]

The overriding impression I get about the subject of God’s saving grace and who gets it, is that there are Christians who are happy to have others, even though created and loved equally by the same God, condemned to eternal torture.

 

[underdog]

The overriding impression I get about the subject of God’s saving grace and who gets it, is that there are Christians who are happy to have others, even though created and loved equally by the same God, condemned to eternal torture.

That’s a hyper-Calvinist attack. I am with you to refute hyper-calvinism as being false.

 

[mark_a]

That’s a hyper-Calvinist attack. I am with you to refute hyper-calvinism as being false.

If you are agreeing with me, your statements below through me for a loop.

This is a very difficult concept to understand for any Christian. Can anyone try to explain this official Roman Catholic teaching? This statement makes the incarnation, life and death of Christ, and the ressurection to be unecessary.

The words of Jesus Christ:

You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8

As a Christian for almost 30 years, this is the saddest moment I’ve experienced as a Christian. Now I understand the postings of many of the Catholics today, as they did not want to share Christ and Him crucified with the Muslims on this site. I too want all men to be saved and to know Christ. However, you cannot create a false hope for those who do not believe. I will be grieving for Roman Catholic Christians for years to come. There is no reason for Catholic and Protestant unity anymore.

 

[Jean_1958]

Please Ashley, let’s take a break from each other. I will be putting you on ignore so I won’t be able to read what you post.

That’s not nice. Not at all. It is sad that you can’t be open to dialogue. Someone open to diaogue would not ignore someone like that. I’m sorry that AshleyBelle’s comment (“Why do you limit the power of God and the power of the cross? Does it frighten you to imagine that somehow God may extend His grace to those who do not know Christ as fully as you do?”) has threatened you, but there is truth in it.

I noticed you quote scripture a lot, but there is more to just quoting scripture.

If you are threatened by AshelyBelle’s comment and do no really care to have open dialogue hen why are you here? Especially if you are always right and we Caholics are always wong?

 

[Milliardo]

Being Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Buddhist, Shinto, Wicka, agnostic, Satanist, athesist, pagan, etc does not send you to Hell.

It does not? Then what are you saying in your previous posts then? Or are you arguing for the sake of just arguing?

We are all born into this world condemned, heading for Hell because of our rebellion and sin against God alone.

This would only be true if God has not sent His Son to save us; as it is, God saw the good in us, so to speak. Remember we were created good–that’s in Genesis. We were not created evil. Paul’s point in Romans, which you imply to, means that sin has entered into the world and that we are predisposed to it; that does not make us evil though, but merely imperfect.

We have to understand that truth. You are not saved becaue you are Roman Catholic. And Muslims are not condemned for being Muslims.

Your argument does not jive with your previous posts; as I’ve pointed out, are you arguing for the sake of simply arguing? Your previous posts clearly implies that Muslims will not enter heaven for being Muslims, period; or are you bactracking from your previous stand?

 

[underdog]

It does not? Then what are you saying in your previous posts then? Or are you arguing for the sake of just arguing?

This would only be true if God has not sent His Son to save us; as it is, God saw the good in us, so to speak. Remember we were created good–that’s in Genesis. We were not created evil. Paul’s point in Romans, which you imply to, means that sin has entered into the world and that we are predisposed to it; that does not make us evil though, but merely imperfect.

Your argument does not jive with your previous posts; as I’ve pointed out, are you arguing for the sake of simply arguing? Your previous posts clearly implies that Muslims will not enter heaven for being Muslims, period; or are you bactracking from your previous stand?

I think your post does not line-up with official Roman Catholic doctrine. God created Adam in the image of God which was without flaw, nor the inclination to sin. We were not created like Adam before the fall. We were created like Adam after the fall, broken with a sin nature. This is also the Catholic position on original sin. Maybe a Catholic can help us out here, because I don’t want to debate something in which Roman Catholic doctrine and I are in agreement. Have you heard of Saint Augustine? What sends all of us on the road to Hell is our sin, which is universal to all peoples throughout all generations. We are all born sinners with an immediate need of the person and work of Jesus Christ applied to us. That is why Catholics baptise their infants, because their infants are sinners just like all infants.

Here’s another way to look at it. Nobody will be in Heaven that have not been united to the biblical Jesus Christ. The Muslims believe in another Jesus or a false Jesus. The Hindus believe in a false Jesus. The Mormons believe in a false Jesus. If you believe Muslims who reject the biblical Jesus Christ will dwell with our Triune God in eternity, what would be the basis for them to be in Heaven? Does the work of Christ apply to those who do not know God through Jesus Christ?

 

[underdog]

That’s not nice. Not at all. It is sad that you can’t be open to dialogue. Someone open to diaogue would not ignore someone like that. I’m sorry that AshleyBelle’s comment (“Why do you limit the power of God and the power of the cross? Does it frighten you to imagine that somehow God may extend His grace to those who do not know Christ as fully as you do?”) has threatened you, but there is truth in it.

I noticed you quote scripture a lot, but there is more to just quoting scripture.

If you are threatened by AshelyBelle’s comment and do no really care to have open dialogue hen why are you here? Especially if you are always right and we Caholics are always wong?

To be honest, I don’t think AshleyBelle’s comments represent orthodox Roman Catholic positions in many areas. As Catholics, you don’t have freedom to believe contrary to defined sacred tradition and dogma.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Underdog, you will have to forgive me as I have skipped over the third page of this thread, but you must be a Protestant. You probably are under the impression that mental acquiescence to proper doctrine is a prerequisite for salvation.

However, we know that mental acquiescence cannot possibly be the Light of Truth, but is instead a portion of that light. If salvation were entirely a matter of understanding sound doctrine and studying scripture then we would have illogical, unjust, and unmerciful circumstances that no good God could sustain. We would have infants and mentally handicapped people without a means for salvation. Because we know a good God cannot condemn these innocents to hell for not having the chance to recite the salvation prayer, there must be something other that intellectual acquiescence to truth that determines salvation.

The Church believes that it is the soul’s response to the Light of Truth that determines a person’s salvation. That human being may not be capable of mentally accepting Christianity because of deep culturally conditioning, intellectual impairment, developmental disability, or immaturity. In such cases, Christ becomes something else, and it is the soul’s response that determines whether the make the choice to spend eternity with Christ, in the Light, or to spend eternity with their own self-created darkness and torment.

Mother Teresa worked day in and day out with dying Hindus. She did not prostelytize them. She believed that she became Christ to those dying Hindus. Her hands were His light. Their soul responded to Christ in those dying moments. They did not need to listen to a lecture that would un-do generations of cultural conditioning and education. Why would such a thing be necessary?

I am of the belief that we see Christ all of the time in other forms here when we walk on earth, and that whether we intellectually label Him or not, we respond to Him everyday, and that response is our predestination. When we see those who are cruelly spat upon, we see Christ. When we see the suffering, we see Christ. When we see those who humble themselves before God ask that His will, rather than ours be done, we see Christ. Remember, the cross to the 1st century Roman was not a religious symbol, it was a symbol of shame and defeat. When we call our own efforts shame and defeat, and seek God’s way, we respond to the cross. When we love those who are ashamed and defeated, we respond to the cross.

So, a humble, loving, earnest Muslim woman who responds to the Light of Christ that she encounters it here on earth may never intellectually recognize who this Jesus really is because of her deep cultural conditioning. We believe it is her inner response to what is Christ-like on earth (and at the moment of death) that determines her destiny.

 

[underdog]

Hi Angels Unaware,

Do you believe that you must be born again to see the kingdom of God?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Your response makes me wonder if you actually read anything I said at all because it is tangential, irrelevant to the discussion, accusing, and misguided. There is nothing Christian about the way you are using the Bible, rather, you are behaving in a cult-like manner, exhibiting the same kinds of behavior as those that have been brainwashed.

Yes, I affirm what Jesus said to Nicodemus. The question is how does the spiritual re-birth occur? Is it a mind game, or is it a response of the soul to the Word of God? The Light of the World?

 

[underdog]

Your response makes me wonder if you actually read anything I said at all because it is tangential, irrelevant to the discussion, accusing, and misguided. There is nothing Christian about the way you are using the Bible, rather, you are behaving in a cult-like manner, exhibiting the same kinds of behavior as those that have been brainwashed.

Yes, I affirm what Jesus said to Nicodemus. The question is how does the spiritual re-birth occur? Is it a mind game, or is it a response of the soul to the Word of God? The Light of the World?

I read your posting and you drifted so far from the truth of the Scriptures (IMO). Now, who’s acting like a cult member or a humanist?

Angels Unaware The Church believes that it is the soul’s response to the Light of Truth that determines a person’s salvation. That human being may not be capable of mentally accepting Christianity because of deep culturally conditioning, intellectual impairment, developmental disability, or immaturity. In such cases, Christ becomes something else, and it is the soul’s response that determines whether the make the choice to spend eternity with Christ, in the Light, or to spend eternity with their own self-created darkness and torment.

I didn’t realize modern Roman Catholicism is so Pelagius in thinking. I thought Scripture bears testimony that all are without excuse (Romans 1 and 2), and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It seems you are saying that God grades on a curve, and God is obligated to show equal opportunity salvation to all to earn it. Are you saying the light of Christ is found in Mohammad, Buddha, Angel Moroni, crystals, witchcraft, trees, and astrology which men can be and will be saved?

 

[King_of_kings]

well you have to read the whole passage. I will posted here

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

 

[underdog]

well you have to read the whole passage. I will posted here

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

Angels Unaware The Church believes that it is the soul’s response to the Light of Truth that determines a person’s salvation. That human being may not be capable of mentally accepting Christianity because of deep culturally conditioning, intellectual impairment, developmental disability, or immaturity. In such cases, Christ becomes something else, and it is the soul’s response that determines whether the make the choice to spend eternity with Christ, in the Light, or to spend eternity with their own self-created darkness and torment.

Seems very contradictory to me.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I read your posting and you drifted so far from the truth of the Scriptures (IMO). Now, who’s acting like a cult member or a humanist?

I didn’t realize modern Roman Catholicism is so Pelagius in thinking. I thought Scripture bears testimony that all are without excuse (Romans 1 and 2), and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It seems you are saying that God grades on a curve, and God is obligated to show equal opportunity salvation to all to earn it. Are you saying the light of Christ is found in Mohammad, Buddha, Angel Moroni, crystals, witchcraft, trees, river which men can be saved?

You are much too big for your britches. You have very little humility.

Your conclusions are wrong. What I posted was an accurate summary of the Catechism. You are very ignorant of the teachings of the Church if you do not understand that. If what I said “veered from scripture” or the teachings of the Church Mother Teresa would not be in the process of being canonized. That is just one example.

I said nothing whatsoever about “God grading on a curve”. What is the matter with you? Can’t you read? That is your brainwashing. You misconstrue things and cannot understand what others are saying because you expect to hear things that are not being said.

The passage you are quoting Scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with how a person responds to the gospel.

The issue that you cannot understand (because you are here with an agenda, and have blinded yourself from understanding) is how is the gospel presented to people? Must it always be mental understanding?

That is the whole of the point that you cannot figure out.