Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[why_me]

Although your question is a little bias, it is nonetheless, valid in some points that I highlighted.

Mormons undergo an intense mental reconditioning when they enter into the cult. This is a common practice in any entity where loyalty is required for success as a unit overall. Psychology, particularly in the areas of emotional manipulation and subliminal suggestion, is the key to most religious cults and sects ultimate recruiting regimen.

Often the adherents are of a personality that craves acceptance with others, as a “recognized” group of special individuals. It tends to work very effectivly with those who have low self esteems and lower IQs. This mindset is literally impossible to shake, and it is usually a mark of some deep seated psychosis that, in most instances, would not render the victim culpable or guilty of sin.

What a post. So mormons have low IQs? To my knowledge Brigham Young University is quite a respected university. And to my knowledge many companies attempt to recruit BYU students because of their reputation for honesty, intergrity and intelligence, And the lds church encourages its young members to get an education. Many mormons head off to college or to the university.

I hate to say this but you sound like Nero when he spoke of the early christians. They were also considered a cult and a dangerous one at that. But nice try at psychology.

 

[Religio71]

The Mormon church is false? I must have missed the news release. In what newspaper was it announced that the mormon faith is false? To my understanding it has not been proven false yet. Mormons still have the original 11 witnesses to the book of mormon and none of these witnesses ever denied their claim even on their deathbed or when they left the lds faith. And then of course, we have the wives of these witnesses. None ever claimed that their husbands were fraudsters. That is quite unusual. Plus we have a book which is over 500 pages and no one to my knowledge has come up with a rational explanation of how it came about. Did Joseph Smith write it? Highly unlikely. Did Sidney Rigdon write it? He had a brain but not likely. No one ever saw Joseph with a manucript in hand and in fact considering all the paper and ink it would have taken to write such a book, not to mention feathered pens, the local store would have run out of ink supplies many times. But as far as I know no one ever testified that they sold Joseph Smith a lot of ink and paper. Now that would be a clue.

The mormon faith comes up for a lot of criticism here. Strange since the faith has many good people in it. If the world had more mormons it certainly wouldn’t be a worse place. All faiths have the seeds of doubt in them. I see no evidence that god exists except by faith that he does exist. I see no evidence outside of the bible that Christ performed miracles. It would be wonderful if such events could be confirmed by the discovery of new scrolls…scrolls written by an eyewitness. Now that would be something. Mormons base their belief on faith and the witness of the holy ghost. They pray about the book of mormon and receive a witness that it is true. And that is why they remain members.

Never at this point in time will mormonism be proven true through evidence. If that were the case, every catholic on this forum would convert to mormonism but all for the wrong reasons. God does not work through conclusive evidence but through faith. It the same for the catholic faith. Many non-catholics could claim the same about the catholic faith: how can they believe such a sham? And an atheist would claim that all religion is a sham.

Words can come back to bite you.

Talk to the Hindus and the Muslims about their sacred texts. I guess we must also accept those as authoritative and from God, because people believe in them, swear by various miracles, say that statues drink milk, etc.

There has to be something more than the testimony of others when investigating a Faith. Yes, it must include it, but it has to involve other areas as well. Otherwise, we can all become Scientologists, as its followers say that Hubbard was a true prophet, his techniques work, and space aliens really are attached to their bodies, because they know this.

My prime resource is history in addition to the Bible. That led me out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[why_me]

My prime resource is history in addition to the Bible. That led me out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

History? Can you be more exact? Mormon history? Catholic history?

Here is an interesting piece for you to look at:

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_I_Dont_Have_a_Testimony_of_the_History_of_the_Church.html

I would never have a testimony of any church’s history. Mormon, catholic, luthern etc. All have imperfections in their histories.

 

[why_me]

Talk to the Hindus and the Muslims about their sacred texts. I guess we must also accept those as authoritative and from God, because people believe in them, swear by various miracles, say that statues drink milk, etc.

.

Hindus and muslims could claim the same about the bible and the catholic experience. And that is where faith comes in.

 

[Religio71]

Hindus and muslims could claim the same about the bible and the catholic experience. And that is where faith comes in.

do you see hinduism and islam as false religions?

At least real LDS openly state that all other churches preach false doctrines.

 

[sinnegam]

having read the posts on this subject it’s obvious that there’s a degree of intolerance towards Mormons which as Catholics we should not be indulging in. Jesus is our example and role model so be a role model to Mormons and all others outside our Faith. Be aware that your actions, opinions and attitudes are always under scrutiny by these people who in God’s eyes are equal in status to us AND He reaches out to our fellow human beings through our love for others…lest we forget…be at peace everyone

 

[Religio71]

having read the posts on this subject it’s obvious that there’s a degree of intolerance towards Mormons which as Catholics we should not be indulging in. Jesus is our example and role model so be a role model to Mormons and all others outside our Faith. Be aware that your actions, opinions and attitudes are always under scrutiny by these people who in God’s eyes are equal in status to us AND He reaches out to our fellow human beings through our love for others…lest we forget…be at peace everyone

Would Jesus tolerate false beliefs?

Welcome to the forum! I think you’ll learn a lot if you stick around.

 

[Tietjen]

But I also know many Catholic who left the Church with a full understanding of the Catholic Church. You may not know of such people, but I do. Many of them.

I suppose a definition of “full understanding” would need to be stated. A “full understanding,” to my thinking, would indicate not only that the people in question “know” a particular belief but that they can recognize it for what it is… a Truth. So, when you say that you know Catholics who left the Church with “a full understanding” of the Church, I hear you saying that you know people who walk away from what they know to be True and instead choose to embrace untruth. I am sure that there may be such people and they are probably standing next to the people who reject reality and accept fantasy.

 

[Catholic20064]

With all of the evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that mormonism is a sham, why do people still buy into it? It almost makes me think that reason will not always work in apologetics. its as if mormonism (and islam among others) trivialize faith by making it appear unreasonable.

When I joined the LDS Church at 19, it didn’t seem obviously fabricated to me. The people were by and large wonderful people who lived the precepts of their religion. It was hard for me to imagine how Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon by himself. Mormonism had a lot of natural appeal for a young guy looking for some stability in life. As I grew older and studied, it became clear to me that it was false, but I had to study for quite a while to come to that conclusion.

 

[cthulhubryan]

To my knowledge Brigham Young University is quite a respected university.

Bah, second rate school. Maybe third rate.

Bryan
Alumni, University of Utah (the clear number one school in the intermountain west)

 

[diggerdomer]

II hear you saying that you know people who walk away from what they know to be True and instead choose to embrace untruth.

That’s not what I said.

 

[MelanieAnne]

having read the posts on this subject it’s obvious that there’s a degree of intolerance towards Mormons which as Catholics we should not be indulging in. Jesus is our example and role model so be a role model to Mormons and all others outside our Faith. Be aware that your actions, opinions and attitudes are always under scrutiny by these people who in God’s eyes are equal in status to us AND He reaches out to our fellow human beings through our love for others…lest we forget…be at peace everyone

I know of no Catholic that is intolerant of Mormons, but there is nothing that says that we need to be tolerant of the lies of Joseph Smith and his cohorts.

 

[dianaiad]

With all of the evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that mormonism is a sham, why do people still buy into it? It almost makes me think that reason will not always work in apologetics. its as if mormonism (and islam among others) trivialize faith by making it appear unreasonable.

Why, Dee Dee, given that over 13 million people are LDS (and perhaps a million or so more identify as “Mormon”) then it’s not that obvious that Mormonism is a sham. That many believers does not prove it to be true, certainly, but it certainly proves that there are that many believers…who ‘buy into it.’

Therefore—not so obvious.

Now me, I COULD return by saying that the “great apostasy” is so obvious that it is astounding to me that anybody denies it. Still, Something like a billion people deny it, so I guess my opinion that it is obvious is incorrect. I see it, and millions of other people do, but hey: that which is obvious to one person seems to…whoosh…right over the head of his neighbor.

Given that this is true, don’t you think that it would be more polite, if you want to change minds and hearts, to deal more gently with their faith?

 

[twopekinguys]

Given that this is true, don’t you think that it would be more polite, if you want to change minds and hearts, to deal more gently with their faith?

While I disagree with the LDS faith, I don’t believe in being hostile about it. I believe civil discussion (which is hard to convey when you’re typing) leads to a true opening of one’s heart and mind to the truth. No matter which side of an issue you are on, as soon as you become accusatory, the other side will shut down.

I know of no Catholic that is intolerant of Mormons, but there is nothing that says that we need to be tolerant of the lies of Joseph Smith and his cohorts.

I know several, and it’s a shame.But then I can say the same thing about some Mormons toward Catholics. It is not something that is unique to any faith.

No matter what faith you belong to, if you are solid in that faith, there is no reason to get huffy about anything. Simply state your position, and be ready to defend it in a civil/christian way. You can’t force someone to change their view, you can only hope to persuade them.

 

[Contarini]

Mormons undergo an intense mental reconditioning when they enter into the cult. This is a common practice in any entity where loyalty is required for success as a unit overall. . . .
If the Truth, which is contained only in the Catholic Church

So you have been “reconditioned” to think this?

Edwin

 

[Tartini]

What a post. So mormons have low IQs? To my knowledge Brigham Young University is quite a respected university. And to my knowledge many companies attempt to recruit BYU students because of their reputation for honesty, intergrity and intelligence, And the lds church encourages its young members to get an education. Many mormons head off to college or to the university.

I hate to say this but you sound like Nero when he spoke of the early christians. They were also considered a cult and a dangerous one at that. But nice try at psychology.

I only make this statement in regards to the evidence that has been presented before me in the past. Any idiot can attend a university and actually write books (they usually are on the best seller list, from what I have seen. One can encourage all the learning that they want, and gain all they can get, but it is absolutely a dangerous thing when it is married to error and complete lack of the truth.

Most Mormons that I have encountered at my doorstep are usually very lacking in both the actual history of their cult, and most do not even know who Joseph Smith was! How disturbing is that for considering the “psychology” that is evident in the missionaries? I wonder why that is? It usually makes for a very limited discussion, but I enjoy the opportunity to teach them, when it is possible. They often know they have lost within the first 10 minutes. I have always made it a point never to engage in battle with those who have no weapons or may be unprepared for the contention.

I must say to compare me to Nero is a little distorted considering the context of what we are actually considering here , either psychologically, or spiritually, but everyone is entitled to their opinions, no matter how off the mark they might be. I have to commend you for your gentle manner of rebuttle and correction. I will have to watch how I present such observations in the future.

 

[Contarini]

Talk to the Hindus and the Muslims about their sacred texts. I guess we must also accept those as authoritative and from God, because people believe in them, swear by various miracles, say that statues drink milk, etc.

No, you missed the point, which was not that these things prove that Mormonism is true but that they prove that Mormonism is not proven to be a sham “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

I can’t for the life of me see any reason to believe in Mormonism. But I would never say that it’s “proven to be false beyond a reasonable doubt” for exactly the reason the poster gave–there are far too many intelligent and sincere people who believe in it. Clearly they see things differently than I do. That’s OK–we’re all finite and fallible.

Edwin

 

[Catholic20064]

Why, Dee Dee, given that over 13 million people are LDS (and perhaps a million or so more identify as “Mormon”) then it’s not that obvious that Mormonism is a sham. That many believers does not prove it to be true, certainly, but it certainly proves that there are that many believers…who ‘buy into it.’

Therefore—not so obvious.

Now me, I COULD return by saying that the “great apostasy” is so obvious that it is astounding to me that anybody denies it. Still, Something like a billion people deny it, so I guess my opinion that it is obvious is incorrect. I see it, and millions of other people do, but hey: that which is obvious to one person seems to…whoosh…right over the head of his neighbor.

Given that this is true, don’t you think that it would be more polite, if you want to change minds and hearts, to deal more gently with their faith?

You know your 13 million number is flawed. In many Latin American countries only about 10-15 percent are active. In surveys in Mexico and other Latin American countries in which people self-identify according to religion the Mormon numbers prove to be over-reported by as much as four times. Even in the United States the number who claim Mormonism to be their religion is far less than those the LDS claim as members. The number of members who actually buy into it may be as low as four million. Once you are on the Mormon membership roles you continue to be counted as a member whether or not you claim an affiliation. Most churches get rid of the dead wood when they count their numbers – from what I understand Catholic numbers are based on a count of attendance rather than those who were baptized Catholic.

As for politeness, that would never have helped me deconvert from Mormonism. I needed the truth thrown at me in a very direct manner on many of these newsgroups and it was.

 

[Catholic20064]

T

The mormon faith comes up for a lot of criticism here. Strange since the faith has many good people in it. If the world had more mormons it certainly wouldn’t be a worse place.
Words can come back to bite you.

Mormons aren’t any more moral than other religious people in my experience. I have a daughter who went to BYU-Idaho and was shocked at the drunkenness and promiscuity she encountered among the students at that school. She transferred out to a secular college where the Mormons attending seemed to be more faithful. Having a bunch of Mormons together in one place usually makes them worse rather than better. Just go up into the canyons on any Sunday in Utah and you will see how many Mormons disregard their religion. I was also surprised how many shoppers I encountered at Wal-Mart on a Sunday morning in Orem last year. If you want to see people living their religion with a sort of harmony I’m afraid you will have to become Amish.

 

[Catholic20064]

No, you missed the point, which was not that these things prove that Mormonism is true but that they prove that Mormonism is not proven to be a sham “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

I can’t for the life of me see any reason to believe in Mormonism. But I would never say that it’s “proven to be false beyond a reasonable doubt” for exactly the reason the poster gave–there are far too many intelligent and sincere people who believe in it. Clearly they see things differently than I do. That’s OK–we’re all finite and fallible.

Edwin

What would you define as “reasonable doubt.” Now you might be able to say that it hasn’t been proven false beyond any doubt. I might quibble with your statement that it hasn’t been proven false beyond a “reasonable doubt.” I would have to say there is a 99.9999% chance the Book of Mormon is false based on what we know about those who wrote it and what we actually know about Native American history. The only reason I would say there is any doubt at all is that we still don’t know a lot about Native American history in the northeastern United States. We know enough about Native American history in Latin America that we can be pretty sure it didn’t happen there. The problem Mormons run into is their apologists generally don’t believe it could have happened in a cold climate because they claim the Book of Mormon story could only have occurred in a warm climate.